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Topic: What does Nintendo have to lose by making the gamepad "optional"?

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ogo79

601. Posted:

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iap-tv.com
the_shpydar wrote:
As @ogo79 said, the SNS-RZ-USA is a prime giveaway that it's not a legit retail cart.
And yes, he is (usually) always right, and he is (almost) the sexiest gamer out there (not counting me) ;)

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Spanjard

602. Posted:

Its credibility.

Spanjard

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blaisedinsd

603. Posted:

So I don't agree with @mahe that the gp is horrible but I do agree it's implementation has been lacking.

As a system designed around the gp as it's core concept the wii u has failed.

It's implementation and the consumer response is what turned in to something best considered an add on.

When the vast majority of its functions are a giant pro controller with a touch screen and the touch screen is almost the same as far as the convenience it brings as a much cheaper touchpad on a ps4 controller it has failed. Sure second screen games tried some unique concepts but the biggest games are Mario and wind waker than it's not necessary. Off tv play is its best feature but since that's irrelevant to some it should be optional.

The gamepads should in the consumers hands, if the value it enough to pay an extra $100 than it will be fine. If not Nintendo would do better selling a $200 console to play games on. They should do both and let consumers decide is what I'm saying.

Edited on by blaisedinsd

blaisedinsd

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SCAR392

604. Posted:

@blaisedinsd
You're still ignoring all the reasons we gave you, that it's a bad idea.

How exactly are you supposed to justify the extra cost of the DS' second screen? Software that utilizes it. The 3D doesn't exactly have any direct to the software besides a visual effect, that may or may not enhance the user experience. That is why it is optional and isn't relevant to this discussion. 3D is optional, the second screen isn't. Notice the difference.

Also, games aready require it without exception, so you're whole rework suggestion would actually cost about as much as they would hypothetically get from a short burst of sales, then the end result would eventually have millions of people without a device to take advantage of every piece of software, in turn, would result in less software sales, which benefits Nintendo more than selling hardware which is why they need to sell you the whole package, and they'd have to market it as a separate device, which isn't exactly the idea they have in mind.

EDIT: You're basically going back in time to 2004 to suggest that DS should have a one screen version. It isn't even a DS, at tat point.

Edited on by SCAR392

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RancidVomit86

605. Posted:

Hey what do you know one the few times I'm fully agreeing with all @SCAR392 is saying. Even if they did make gamepad optional I still can not see any substantial boost in sales that would make the move worthwhile on Nintendo's end.

Anyway I think this thread will continue to just go in circles as @blaisedinsd will never give up his view and we will never give up ours. So not much hope of convincing either side to change.

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skywake

606. Posted:

blaisedinsd wrote:

Completely agree. That is why I don't get what the disconnect is. I make an analogy that says it's like those things but in reverse and I get a response that says I am wrong because it's in reverse. That's just so weird to me. The proper response if you disagree is to say why it being in reverse makes it a bad idea for Nintendo to consider. I have not seen that proper response. I acknowledge and accept some games can not be compatible without a gamepad. I acknowledge the GP is the standard controller and that this would mean the pro controller is also a standard controller if you don't have a gp (or don't want to or it's inconvenient to use)

You're kidding right? With Motion Plus they brought it out late in the console's life and tried to make it the new standard controller. You're suggesting that they should do the same but instead of adding features that can be used or even required for games they should take them away. Subtracting features instead of adding them. Not the same. Reversed. So to borrow your approach is this something can understand? If not then there is no point me responding to this thread again.

blaisedinsd wrote:

Well there is your problem The similarities in the analogy are its strength. I am pretty sure this is an indisputable fact and you are wrong. An analogy say THIS is like THAT. What you are saying is pointing out why THIS is not like THAT is the determining factor of the validity of an analogy makes no sense to me. Yeah your making a point I accept, THIS is not EXACTLY like THAT, buy since my point is only HOW this is like THAT pointing out how it's not is simply ridiculous and maddening.

I'm not saying the GamePad is not like 3D because the GamePad is a GamePad and 3D is not. I'm saying it's not like 3D because 3D was never required and mechanically could never be required to play a game. I'm not saying that the GamePad is not like Kinect or Motion Plus because the GamePad is a Gamepad and the others are not. I'm saying that it's not like them because in those cases they did everything in their power to try and make those extra features standard rather than trying to make what was a standard feature non-standard.

So to again borrow your approach is this something can understand? If not then there is no point me responding to this thread again.

blaisedinsd wrote:

This is true, but what is it that requires any of that stuff? Separate view is used for niche games that will be incompatible. Touch is used for selecting things and I find that everything I can select with touch pretty much also allows me to use the GP buttons, so why can't the pro do that too on the TV? Motion control is used for various things but outside the niche titles Lego City uses it for a scanner something that has been done with buttons and something many would prefer to do with buttons (aiming with motion control or circle pad in 3DS games for instance, with 3D on you cant use motion well). The IR sensor would mean fit meters are not compatible with out a fitmeter you can still Play Wii FIt U and overall the gamepad stuff in Wii Fit U would be a compatibility issue. Wii Fit U is a niche title though so we will move on (it alway required add ons anyway). Overall there is nothing that core titles require the GP for that can't be done with a TV and procontroller. Do you agree?

No, I don't. Two things:
1. Wii Fit is not a niche title, on Wii it and its sequel sold ~20mill copies each. Not niche.
2. Analogue sticks aren't very good at drawing shapes on the screen

blaisedinsd wrote:

This is all fine and good for why the gamepad is cool and great and all but my point is simply that letting each Wii U adopter decide if those things we like about it are worth spending an extra $100 is the smart thing to do for the consoles profitability. If they don't value that stuff at $100 than they would likely value the Wii U more at $200 than $300.

If it's cool and great why remove it? The only person who agrees with you in this thread at this point is someone who thinks the GamePad is some sort of STD. A person who from all appearances seems to claim that they chuck a tantrum when asked to be Mario in Mario Chase. A person who from the sounds of it would be just as upset about the Pro Controller because that's not a WiiMote either.

As for the price cut. Yes, this is the only advantage that you have managed to come up with. That's what it all boils down to. I don't think that that's enough to warrant all of the crap that comes along with stirring the pot that much. You break compatibility with big titles you insist are niche and you remove its one unique feature. All for a price cut to a console that's already the cheapest of its generation.

One last thing. We just had a Nintendo Direct and they did not announce your grand strategy. If there was a time to push out a new plan it would be now but they didn't. Instead they showed us new stuff from DK, Smash, X, Bayonetta and told us about Child of Light and NES Remix 2. They even made a point of talking about how Child of Light uses the stylus input of the GamePad as an assist thing. It ain't dead bro.

Edited on by skywake

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blaisedinsd

607. Posted:

I will address your points when I get a computer but overall it sounds to me like your objection is more ideological than anything else. I don't know about game development but I would think 3d costs more to do well than gp features. Gp features like in windwaker I don't see as much effort. Once the game has decided to support the pro and off tv play it's not hard to implement I would think.

blaisedinsd

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rockodoodle

608. Posted:

I don't think people want the gamepad removed- I think the point is to offer a version w/out it so it might spark sales. I love the gamepad, but I also think it's worth looking at as an option. There's really only a small percentage of games where it even enhances gameplay and fewer where it's essential....

rockodoodle

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skywake

609. Posted:

rockodoodle wrote:

I don't think people want the gamepad removed- I think the point is to offer a version w/out it so it might spark sales. I love the gamepad, but I also think it's worth looking at as an option. There's really only a small percentage of games where it even enhances gameplay and fewer where it's essential....

If you're going to remove something you better have a good reason to do so. If the assumption is that it'll boost sales you need to show how the new SKU will boost the value proposition to a large portion of the market. The problem is that the features of the GamePad are more likely to appeal to the consumers who are looking for a cheaper SKU. So their's a disconnect there. Then there's the fact that there are games, regardless of how much people want to brush them aside, that do use those features. Making a SKU that can play less is a strange move to make for a console who's biggest problem is a small library of games.

blaisedinsd wrote:

I will address your points when I get a computer but overall it sounds to me like your objection is more ideological than anything else. I don't know about game development but I would think 3d costs more to do well than gp features. Gp features like in windwaker I don't see as much effort. Once the game has decided to support the pro and off tv play it's not hard to implement I would think.

See I don't think you even know what the word ideological means. I'm not bound to a particular world-view of what features a console needs or doesn't in order to be successful. At the very most I subscribe to the idea that people buy consoles to play games... but I'd argue that that's a universal rather than controversial view.

As for the GamePad being an easy thing to implement and 3D being hard well I disagree. As someone who has actually made some small games and animations for various inputs and for stereoscopic 3D even I can tell you that's not the case. Enabling stereoscopic 3D is basically a single line of code or a checkbox. Once done you'll need to tweak the depth, performance and so on a bit but it's mostly done. Changing your input basically requires taking all of the work you did, throwing it in the bin and starting again.

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blaisedinsd

610. Posted:

Play Mario kart 8. Dk tropical freeze. Wind waker hd. Super mario 3d world. Super smash bros.
Etc etc
Only on wii u, now starting at $199.99

You don't think that would help sales?

(Some wii u software not playable with out wii u gamepad)
The ideology I am referring to is the concept that the wii u must have the gamepad. I feel it's your inability to grasp why anyone would want a wii u without a gamepad that's the issue.

Edited on by blaisedinsd

blaisedinsd

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skywake

611. Posted:

blaisedinsd wrote:

Play Mario kart 8. Dk tropical freeze. Wind waker hd. Super mario 3d world. Super smash bros.
Etc etc
Only on wii u, now starting at $199.99

You don't think that would help sales?

(Some wii u software not playable with out wii u gamepad)

No, I don't.

A dude in a shop will see Gimp-SKU at $199 that doesn't do DS VC, off-TV play, Nintendo Land, Pikmin, 3D World kinda, Zombi U, Wii Fit U and others. Then see the current SKU at $250 and the GamePad at $100. Then ignore your Gimp-SKU entirely. Right now the Wii U needs more games not more SKUs. A person not sold on the Wii U yet isn't going to jump at the chance to play a version that out of the box supports less games.

blaisedinsd wrote:

The ideology I am referring to is the concept that the wii u must have the gamepad. I feel it's your inability to grasp why anyone would want a wii u without a gamepad that's the issue.

No, I don't believe that the Wii U must have the GamePad. I'm merely saying that it does have the GamePad and now that they're using it they're better off running with it. Furthermore the fact that the problem with the Wii U right now is that it doesn't have that many killer apps. This SKU does nothing to solve that and infact probably makes it worse.

Now if the Wii U had come out without the GamePad and they were only now pushing it as an optional extra thing for off-TV play then sure. However they didn't, that's not what happened. The GamePad is something developers both internal and external have assumed would be in the box and some have made games that lean on it heavily. So no, you can't remove it now. It's too late.

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Unca_Lz

612. Posted:

Having more SKUs might confuse the consumer anyway...

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blaisedinsd

613. Posted:

I just bought my nephew a wii u for his birthday. The gamepad doesn't make sense to me in his room. It makes more sense in the family room but the household want it in his room.

Yes the gamepad might be cool and I love mine, but gimped sku would have been more attractive. Now I am worried about him breaking the gp and his console not working. I would be less worried if I knew a broken gp had the option of being replace by a $50 controller.

I would be more likely to buy a wii u for other nephews birthdays at $199, especially if they already have a wii. I can bring Nintendoland and my gp over when I visit and it's easier that bringing everything.

How does this not make sense to some of you?

Gp games going forward should be like windwaker hd which supports both controllers equally

Like when they saved 3ds they need to increase value and decrease cost. Games aren't enough, it's half as effective a strategy. They can't lower cost until the manufacturing process is improved and they can't do that till they sell the stock they have first.

Edited on by blaisedinsd

blaisedinsd

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CaviarMeths

614. Posted:

Ok, so I dropped out of this thread around page 20 or so, and just skimmed a bit, but let me know if I'm properly up to speed here.

  • Losing the Gamepad magically makes the console $100 cheaper, because Pro Controllers are free.
  • There is no risk involved in selling a product that may or may not work as the consumer intends.
  • It is an appropriate bargain to people who already bought the console to hand out some NES games.
  • It is also reasonable to demand that Nintendo patch their entire library and OS to function without the Gamepad.
  • Cost and value are the exact same thing. This is why the OUYA and Gamecube were the best selling consoles of their generation and the PS4 is dead on arrival.
  • It is not necessary to have a target audience in mind when marketing a product.
  • It is not necessary for a company to have an identifiable brand and image in a crowded, cutthroat industry.

Did I miss anything?

Edited on by CaviarMeths

Courage is the magic that turns durrr into reherrdurr.

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skywake

615. Posted:

@CaviarMeths
You missed the repeated talking down to/begging for attention

  • "Do you understand this?"
  • "You don't think this would help?"
  • "Does that make sense to you?"
  • "Do you agree?"

etc, etc

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blaisedinsd

616. Posted:

The thread is about if it makes sense for Nintendo to do this .

It costs them some packaging and some game patches. Risk is low

Reward is unkown.

We have nothing to lose and some to gain by this as early adopters

It just makes wii u better for everyone.

blaisedinsd

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skywake

617. Posted:

Stop bumping your thread

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shaneoh

618. Posted:

Untitled

Edited on by shaneoh

shaneoh

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MAB

619. Posted:

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Forever living to inappropriately touch the mentalities of armchair internet gaming analysts and worthless console war fanboys... Let their sad stories burn eternally within my inbox furnace of hell ;)

Wii U & Steam Box DIGITAL 4 LYFE BABY!

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blaisedinsd

620. Posted:

CaviarMeths wrote:

Ok, so I dropped out of this thread around page 20 or so, and just skimmed a bit, but let me know if I'm properly up to speed here.

Gp cost $140 to replace initially. Parts breakdown put it at $80. $60 differnce

Pro controller costs $50 to replace. Parts cost maybe $15. $35 difference

Pro controller has profits designed in to its sales like all normal controllers do.

It would be a massive savings to nintnendo to put a pro controller instead. If they still decide to take a loss on hw they could reasonably get the console down to $200 without the gp and bundle a pro and a game.

Is there a problem with estimating for ease of conversation?

  • There is no risk involved in selling a product that may or may not work as the consumer intends.

A wii u with a pro controller would work as intended if it was realeased. Silly point. Game compatibility is not the same thing

  • It is an appropriate bargain to people who already bought the console to hand out some NES games.

It's not a bargain to get Nes games. Invade anyone is upset they were forced to buy a gp they didn't really want an ambassador reward is simply a gesture.

  • It is also reasonable to demand that Nintendo patch their entire library and OS to function without the Gamepad.

The OS should be patched anyway. Everyone in thread agreed. on that.

Games have been moving toward this direction already while you weren't paying attention like windwaker hd. How many games get patched is a flexible thing. If the sku became popular patching all games that can be patched is possible. But only some games need a patch initially.

  • Cost and value are the exact same thing. This is why the OUYA and Gamecube were the best selling consoles of their generation and the PS4 is dead on arrival.
    Brand image matters too, but overall Cost and value are different things.

Cheap valuable things sell better. Games increase value. Msrp is the cost to the consumer.

  • It is not necessary to have a target audience in mind when marketing a product.

GP targeted at families sharing a Wii U on a common TV. Gimped SKU targets an individual who has a non- shared TV.

  • It is not necessary for a company to have an identifiable brand and image in a crowded, cutthroat industry.
    Family friendly is the brand image, but PS4 cowd may get secondary Wii U console at $200 in more numbers if there is killer kart and Smash to play on it. Family may choose budget option even if they like the GP, why make them pay for it up front when they get in to Wii U?

Did I miss anything?

Serioiusly consdering my answers to these points which are already in the thread is all you missed.

blaisedinsd

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