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Topic: What does Nintendo have to lose by making the gamepad "optional"?

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blaisedinsd

561. Posted:

What biases? I love the gp

The only reason I am arguing it will become optional is because it makes all the sense in the world that it will be.

We have demonstrated Nintendo could do it gently and you wouldn't be upset. If they get a profit increase greater than the cost of repackaging and patching a few games it is totally worth doing. If it kills the gp and the wii u becomes popular than it a as a move that needed to be made. There is very little risk for Nintendo, just the small cost of releasing this option.

Edited on by blaisedinsd

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RancidVomit86

562. Posted:

@blaisedinsd So you are determined to drag this out another 30 pages? Uuuuuhhhhhhhh.....aaaaaaaagggggggghhhhhhhh.....grumble...grumble....grumble...
This topic is done and going nowhere at this point.

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skywake

563. Posted:

blaisedinsd wrote:

Well you guys are not paying attention

No, we just don't agree. Not the same thing. I think most who read this thread would agree that I have given you more than enough attention

blaisedinsd wrote:

The gamepad is one of the most divisive things about the wii u. Some people don't like and don't need off tv and don't want to look down as a second screen. The second screen has proven to be less compelling on a console than on a handheld. Nintendo is having difficulty utilizing the gamepad. It is adding a huge cost to the console and it's failing to make it more appealing.

Divisive or just prominent?

blaisedinsd wrote:

Whether or not you admit there are people who don't like the gamepad that preferred to play smash or kart with a gc controller because they didn't like motion controls are mostly interested in wii u for those games that don't need a gp is entirely irrelevant because it cost Nintendo very little to do this and there are enormous business reasons it makes sense that you are choosing to ignore. There are no reasons not to do this other than lack of acceptance that some people don't want or need a gp. Nintendo can do this and you won't even care. Why wouldn't they do this.

See my previous post

blaisedinsd wrote:

Overall, I am just saying they have nothing to lose. You all have agreed to that. Your just talking now about whether it makes sense to you. You are no different then people who refused to believe 3d could be dropped and failed to understand the appeal of the 2ds. Cut the gimmic fat to lower the entry cost to sw that appeals to those who are not interested in the gimmic.

I feel it's pretty simple and am confounded by the inability to grasp the concept. It won't hurt you and Nintendo has nothing to lose and whether you personally see the appeal of the sku is irrelevant. You don't understand why someone doesn't like the gp because you love it and that is the main reason you can't grasp the logic of what I am saying.

Where did I agree they have nothing to lose? Quote that bit.

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DefHalan

564. Posted:

@blaisedinsd
Nintendo has a lot for to lose than you are thinking about. If you are only talking about making short-term money then sure this new SKU could provide that. The problem is looking at the Wii U or Nintendo in the long-term.

Will dropping support for their own Hardware (the GamePad) so early in its life make Nintendo look like a strong company?

If Nintendo continues to make games that require the GamePad what will happen to the GamePad-less consumers?

How does making this new SKU fix their biggest issues, 3rd Party and software droughts?

How difficult does it make consumers' ability to purchase software with as little research as possible? (for this question I want you to think about buying a game for a child who isn't your own. You as the parents what game systems they own, which their reply is the Wii U. Now you are standing in the middle of Walmart with an employee who doesn't know the difference between the 3DS or a digital camera. How do you know what games they can or cannot play?)

Does Nintendo have anything to gain from a install base that can't purchase the games they make? (because Nintendo is going to continue to create GamePad games)

Edited on by DefHalan

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blaisedinsd

565. Posted:

1. It lowers the cost of entry to Wii U software, that's why it makes business sense. Indisputable fact.

2. It is the only way they have to cut the price of entry without taking a huge loss on HW sales that would be a disaster financially (a cut your losses strategy) Indisputable fact.

3. They are having trouble using the GP features in games and the system sellers are ignoring the GP features. Do you disagree?

4. Some people just don't like/need/want the gamepad, it's not for everybody. The inability to accept this is maddening. I like it so everyone should like it is a narrow minded POV

5. The Wii U is struggling and the GP has failed as a gimmic to interest people in the console. Do you disagree?

What points are causing the disconnect here? Where is the disagreement? If you accept those points you should see why this move makes plenty of sense, it's the only low risk option available outside of simply releasing games. I think they need to hit on both ends like the 3DS strategy...lower the cost of entry and pump it full of games. Following only half that strategy is half as effective.

And here is some more ranting but sticking to those points is more productive:
When a console is struggling its either cost or value that makes consumers stay away. Games create the value and price is the cost. If its cheap and plays tons of great games it will sell. Nintendo needs to lower cost and increase value...thats all they can do. If the main games creating value on the system are arguably just as compelling with no GP and some people don't like the GP or see the value why would Nintendo possibly want to force everyone who wants to buy smash to value the GP? Selling the GP is irrelevant. The GP was supposed to help sell consoles and it has not done that. Selling the GP is not helping Nintendo. The GP infaltes the cost of the Wii U to the point it is the first ever console of theres to launch at a price that creates a loss. Selling GP generates no profit, it's break even or a loss and it has failed to sell SW. GP features in Batman are interesting but do not make it a better game. Their losses on HW sales are multiplied in that they likely built a lot more consoles than they needed to because their sales expectation are too high. Maybe you are not grasping how bad the Wii U situation is. I feel I am simply paying more attention to whats going on than those disagreeing with me. You think they are going to pull a million dollar idea out of their butts that will turn the GP in the wiis savior? You are out of your flippin mind if you actually think that is whats coming or that it is sound to pursue as a strategy to turn this console around. 3DS is doing well and Wii U is dragging Nintendo down, they have to fix that. They were profitable for about 30 years in this business and now they are losing money like Sony or Microsoft do. The Wii U either turns it around to at least become profitable or else it is the most massive blow the company will ever have had to absord, N64 and GC were profitable even if they weren't "successful" in the "consoler war"....because they were not saddled with some hugely expensive and ineffective gimmic.

As I have said I love my GP and I am glad Nintendo took the risks that allowed it to exist in my living room. But I see no reason the fates of the Wii U need to be tethered to fates of the GP. Wii U has potential appeal even with out the GP and that appeal is hurt by the GP inflating the cost of the console by ginormous and whopping 34% or $100. As far as a prediction it is basically insanity to stick your head in the sand and focus on the GP more. Thats stubbornly doing the same thing and expecting a different result- INSANE. I really don't think Nintendo is insane and this thread if anything is something for you to come back to understand why they made it optional. Don't panic when it happens. WE LOSE NOTHING. It is a move to attempt to boost the consoles profitability, they need to keep trying, and this I feel is clearly the lowest risk strategy they can pursue.

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blaisedinsd

566. Posted:

DefHalan wrote:

@blaisedinsd
Nintendo has a lot for to lose than you are thinking about. If you are only talking about making short-term money then sure this new SKU could provide that. The problem is looking at the Wii U or Nintendo in the long-term.

Will dropping support for their own Hardware (the GamePad) so early in its life make Nintendo look like a strong company?

Seriously dude! Seriously! You did not just say that. How many times do I have to tell you that is a false dilemma. WHY ARE YOU TALKING ABOUT THIS STILL? Nintendo has already told us this is not the case. Miyamoto (do you know who that is?) is working on a compelling gamepad centered single player game. That's top of the line Nintendo goodness your getting. That's their best shot. How can you say if they do this that making the GP optional is dropping support for their own HW. What in the world are you talking about? I have explained this OVER AND OVER AND OVER. NINTENDO WILL CONTINUE TO SUPPORT THE GP. Why wouldn't they? Why would they stop because it became optional? Do they have to stop if it becomes optional. It is incredibly frustratign to make this point over and over and get this still. geez man.

I am still bitter ROB wasn't supported, I bought a premium bundle and he worked for 2 games. 2! Im mad about that but I am not worried about this.

Yeah it may look bad to the internet just like "dropping" 3D on the handheld but who cares? That has nothing to do with sales. The gamepad will still sell, still exists, and is still supported. This is a complete non sequitur.

DefHalan wrote:

If Nintendo continues to make games that require the GamePad what will happen to the GamePad-less consumers?

The same thing that happens to 360 users when Starwars Kinect comes out. They can't play it unless they buy the add-on.
The same thing that happens to Wii owners when Skyward Sword comes out. They can't play it unless they buy the add-on
The same thing that happens to N64 owners when Majoras mask comes out. They can't play it unless they buy the add-on.

This is not and has not even been a problem in the console business so why do you bring it up?

DefHalan wrote:

How does making this new SKU fix their biggest issues, 3rd Party and software droughts?

How does it make peanut butter sandwiches? This is a non sequitur yet again.

It could sell more consoles and that could help the issue, but it is completely unrelated. I can not fathom why you make this as a relevant point. How does doing nothing help this issue? How does doing this hurt that issue?

DefHalan wrote:

How difficult does it make consumers' ability to purchase software with as little research as possible? (for this question I want you to think about buying a game for a child who isn't your own. You as the parents what game systems they own, which their reply is the Wii U. Now you are standing in the middle of Walmart with an employee who doesn't know the difference between the 3DS or a digital camera. How do you know what games they can or cannot play?)

This is already a problem since the days of the Wii and it's large number of peripherals. Wiimote, nunchuck, classic, classic pro, pro controller, gamecube controller, gamecube peripherals, bongo drums, pro controllers, balance boards, motion plus, gamepad.

I do think Nintendo needs a better system. I already have to research this when buying games for myself. They should standardize a seperate list for supported controllers vs. required controllers.

Do I need a nunchuck or is it optionally supported?

I can look at Zombi U and say cool, it works with a pro controller and wiimote and nunchuck and a gamepad according to the box. I have a wiimote and nunchuck I want to use. Nope, have to use the GP and other controls are just for multiplayer. There are many more examples.

Overall, slapping a label and publishing a list of incompatible games is a perfectly fine solution. You can also create a labeling system saying GP is not required. Overall this is a mess already.

I think procontroller was criminally under utilized and it's support is growing. The GP is almost a pro controller with a touchscreen, 90% of GP usage is using the buttons and sticks.

Yes this is an issue with making it optional, but it's a minor one and a problem the system already has that already needs to be fixed. If you mistakenly buy an incompatible game you return it or exchange it and when this happens people do not curse Nintendo and vow to never buy their stuff again. It's a minor inconvenience to the consumer.

DefHalan wrote:

Nintendo have anything to gain from a install base that can't purchase the games they make? (because Nintendo is going to continue to create GamePad games)

You mean like do they have anything to gain from Skyward sword, Wii Sports Resort, Wii FIt, Majoras Mask.

If there is a big game you bundle it with a GP. You buy this GP and you get Miyamotos masterpiece.

They have nothing to lose from this and history shows they do it time and again.

Edited on by blaisedinsd

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OptometristLime

567. Posted:

You put the cart before the horse, that's what this whole thread is about - presupposing that Nintendo created a different console.

The Wii U is a box and a Game Pad, that's what it is; has been always will be... probably.

Maybe Nintendo themselves wishes they could go back in time, and do a few things differently. Don't be surprised if they choose the Game Pad each time, that's just how Nintendo rolls. Equally, we might all like to visit the future, one year from now and clear a few things up.

We might be Nintendo fans, but most of us are also realists - grounded people - who see and feel what's going on in this industry. You have no reason to think otherwise, just as we have no reason to trust your business prognostications more than say Michael Pachter.

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RancidVomit86

568. Posted:

OptometristLime wrote:

We might be Nintendo fans, but most of us are also realists - grounded people - who see and feel what's going on in this industry. You have no reason to think otherwise, just as we have no reason to trust your business prognostications more than say Michael Pachter.

Reckon that sums it up.

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blaisedinsd

569. Posted:

Overall if you can't grasp the concept that lowering the cost of entry for wii u software is something Nintendo would benefit from I can't help you.

If you can't grasp that some people don't like need want or see the value of the gamepad at $100 I can't help you.

If you can't grasp that Nintendo can and will continue to support the gamepad even if it's optional I can't help you

But at least you all realize if Nintendo does this and assures us they will support the gp, that they want as many people to play Mario kart as possible, and gives us some ambassador reward that you wouldn't be upset.

Edited on by blaisedinsd

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RancidVomit86

570. Posted:

Untitled

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DefHalan

571. Posted:

blaisedinsd wrote:

DefHalan wrote:

@blaisedinsd
Nintendo has a lot for to lose than you are thinking about. If you are only talking about making short-term money then sure this new SKU could provide that. The problem is looking at the Wii U or Nintendo in the long-term.

Will dropping support for their own Hardware (the GamePad) so early in its life make Nintendo look like a strong company?

Seriously dude! Seriously! You did not just say that. How many times do I have to tell you that is a false dilemma. WHY ARE YOU TALKING ABOUT THIS STILL? Nintendo has already told us this is not the case. Miyamoto (do you know who that is?) is working on a compelling gamepad centered single player game. That's top of the line Nintendo goodness your getting. That's their best shot. How can you say if they do this that making the GP optional is dropping support for their own HW. What in the world are you talking about? I have explained this OVER AND OVER AND OVER. NINTENDO WILL CONTINUE TO SUPPORT THE GP. Why wouldn't they? Why would they stop because it became optional? Do they have to stop if it becomes optional. It is incredibly frustratign to make this point over and over and get this still. geez man.

I am still bitter ROB wasn't supported, I bought a premium bundle and he worked for 2 games. 2! Im mad about that but I am not worried about this.

Yeah it may look bad to the internet just like "dropping" 3D on the handheld but who cares? That has nothing to do with sales. The gamepad will still sell, still exists, and is still supported. This is a complete non sequitur.

DefHalan wrote:

If Nintendo continues to make games that require the GamePad what will happen to the GamePad-less consumers?

The same thing that happens to 360 users when Starwars Kinect comes out. They can't play it unless they buy the add-on.
The same thing that happens to Wii owners when Skyward Sword comes out. They can't play it unless they buy the add-on
The same thing that happens to N64 owners when Majoras mask comes out. They can't play it unless they buy the add-on.

This is not and has not even been a problem in the console business so why do you bring it up?

DefHalan wrote:

How does making this new SKU fix their biggest issues, 3rd Party and software droughts?

How does it make peanut butter sandwiches? This is a non sequitur yet again.

It could sell more consoles and that could help the issue, but it is completely unrelated. I can not fathom why you make this as a relevant point. How does doing nothing help this issue? How does doing this hurt that issue?

DefHalan wrote:

How difficult does it make consumers' ability to purchase software with as little research as possible? (for this question I want you to think about buying a game for a child who isn't your own. You as the parents what game systems they own, which their reply is the Wii U. Now you are standing in the middle of Walmart with an employee who doesn't know the difference between the 3DS or a digital camera. How do you know what games they can or cannot play?)

This is already a problem since the days of the Wii and it's large number of peripherals. Wiimote, nunchuck, classic, classic pro, pro controller, gamecube controller, gamecube peripherals, bongo drums, pro controllers, balance boards, motion plus, gamepad.

I do think Nintendo needs a better system. I already have to research this when buying games for myself. They should standardize a seperate list for supported controllers vs. required controllers.

Do I need a nunchuck or is it optionally supported?

I can look at Zombi U and say cool, it works with a pro controller and wiimote and nunchuck and a gamepad according to the box. I have a wiimote and nunchuck I want to use. Nope, have to use the GP and other controls are just for multiplayer. There are many more examples.

Overall, slapping a label and publishing a list of incompatible games is a perfectly fine solution. You can also create a labeling system saying GP is not required. Overall this is a mess already.

I think procontroller was criminally under utilized and it's support is growing. The GP is almost a pro controller with a touchscreen, 90% of GP usage is using the buttons and sticks.

Yes this is an issue with making it optional, but it's a minor one and a problem the system already has that already needs to be fixed. If you mistakenly buy an incompatible game you return it or exchange it and when this happens people do not curse Nintendo and vow to never buy their stuff again. It's a minor inconvenience to the consumer.

DefHalan wrote:

Nintendo have anything to gain from a install base that can't purchase the games they make? (because Nintendo is going to continue to create GamePad games)

You mean like do they have anything to gain from Skyward sword, Wii Sports Resort, Wii FIt, Majoras Mask.

If there is a big game you bundle it with a GP. You buy this GP and you get Miyamotos masterpiece.

They have nothing to lose from this and history shows they do it time and again.

I think I am going to just keep repeating myself until you give up... that seems to be your strategy so it will become my strategy

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skywake

572. Posted:

blaisedinsd wrote:

Seriously dude! Seriously! You did not just say that. How many times do I have to tell you that is a false dilemma. WHY ARE YOU TALKING ABOUT THIS STILL? Nintendo has already told us this is not the case. Miyamoto (do you know who that is?) is working on a compelling gamepad centered single player game. That's top of the line Nintendo goodness your getting. That's their best shot. How can you say if they do this that making the GP optional is dropping support for their own HW. What in the world are you talking about? I have explained this OVER AND OVER AND OVER. NINTENDO WILL CONTINUE TO SUPPORT THE GP. Why wouldn't they?

Well because

blaisedinsd wrote:

DefHalan wrote:

If Nintendo continues to make games that require the GamePad what will happen to the GamePad-less consumers?

This is not and has not even been a problem in the console business so why do you bring it up?

........

You're either talking about "support" as in "support" rather than what everyone would define as proper support. I don't think anyone means that it'll just be off-TV play and the odd game like Wii Party U when they say they want to see the GamePad supported. However this is not the case anyways. We know with a fair deal of certainty that Nintendo are planning on pushing some pretty serious games that lean heavily on the GamePad. That brings up the latter.

Yes, there have been times when they've made games that required an 'optional' accessory for a huge game. Sure, those people then went out and got that accessory. If however the main selling point of the console is that it has Majora's Mask, Skyward Sword or Just Dance for Kinect then the budget consumer won't be interested in your Gimp-SKU. Congratulations, you've made a SKU that forces the lower end consumer to pay MORE money not less because now they're forced into buying a Pro Controller.

Yes, yes, Skyward Sword etc. Again, you do you realise that by the time Skyward Sword came out you basically couldn't buy a Wii or even a WiiMote without getting Motion Plus? It's really not the same as your Gimp-SKU which tries to do the reverse. Basically what you're saying is that they should have launched with Motion Plus and then taken it out of the basic Wii SKU just before Skyward Sword launched. No, just no. Idiotic.

Edited on by skywake

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SCAR392

573. Posted:

RancidVomit86 wrote:

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AHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH!!!!!!!!!!

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MAB

574. Posted:

RancidVomit86 wrote:

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So we can make this start ;)

Forever living to inappropriately touch the mentalities of armchair internet gaming analysts and worthless console war fanboys... Let their sad stories burn eternally within my inbox furnace of hell ;)

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Jazzer94

575. Posted:

@MAG SEGA will never make another console just like atari.

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AJ_Lethal

576. Posted:

blaisedinsd wrote:

Furthermore the relevance of kinect2 to Xbox one is continually ignored when I bring it up.

I think you see how requiring kinect 2 is hurting xboxone but you love of the gp is blinding you from seeing requiring the gp is a mistake in the same way.

Gp and kinect2 would be better as something that sells based on its own merit and it's own perceived value to the consumer. Forcing these things to be purchased for access to sw is not a wise move for either company.

Funny, since XBO is selling well despite Kinect 2

Mindblowing, eh?

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577. Posted:

@MAB nope. SEGA has a better naming sense than this! ;)

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skywake

578. Posted:

official thread theme song

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blaisedinsd

579. Posted:

skywake wrote:

blaisedinsd wrote:

Seriously dude! Seriously! You did not just say that. How many times do I have to tell you that is a false dilemma. WHY ARE YOU TALKING ABOUT THIS STILL? Nintendo has already told us this is not the case. Miyamoto (do you know who that is?) is working on a compelling gamepad centered single player game. That's top of the line Nintendo goodness your getting. That's their best shot. How can you say if they do this that making the GP optional is dropping support for their own HW. What in the world are you talking about? I have explained this OVER AND OVER AND OVER. NINTENDO WILL CONTINUE TO SUPPORT THE GP. Why wouldn't they?

Well because

blaisedinsd wrote:

DefHalan wrote:

If Nintendo continues to make games that require the GamePad what will happen to the GamePad-less consumers?

This is not and has not even been a problem in the console business so why do you bring it up?

........

You're either talking about "support" as in "support" rather than what everyone would define as proper support. I don't think anyone means that it'll just be off-TV play and the odd game like Wii Party U when they say they want to see the GamePad supported. However this is not the case anyways. We know with a fair deal of certainty that Nintendo are planning on pushing some pretty serious games that lean heavily on the GamePad. That brings up the latter.

Yes, there have been times when they've made games that required an 'optional' accessory for a huge game. Sure, those people then went out and got that accessory. If however the main selling point of the console is that it has Majora's Mask, Skyward Sword or Just Dance for Kinect then the budget consumer won't be interested in your Gimp-SKU. Congratulations, you've made a SKU that forces the lower end consumer to pay MORE money not less because now they're forced into buying a Pro Controller.

Yes, yes, Skyward Sword etc. Again, you do you realise that by the time Skyward Sword came out you basically couldn't buy a Wii or even a WiiMote without getting Motion Plus? It's really not the same as your Gimp-SKU which tries to do the reverse. Basically what you're saying is that they should have launched with Motion Plus and then taken it out of the basic Wii SKU just before Skyward Sword launched. No, just no. Idiotic.

Thank you. Instead of just repeating "lack of gp support" you went in to depth of what that actually means. This is much more productive

I now understand your fears in a better way that can be discussed.

Really I see implementation in wind waker hd as the norm for traditional games. Yes the gp has some implementation in a way your concerned about. Your worried about the new Zelda not using the gp in the same way I think that's a false fear. They could make it the same way as wind waker already is implemented perfectly as a title that uses the gp enhancements yet still provides a one screen button based experience. I don't see this going away, and I think this type of support is what your worried most about. There is no reason with no gp that wind waker hd can't be enjoyed and the gp is still nice and supported if you like it.

Overall the pro controller has the same buttons as the gp. Games should realize this going forward and support both. They already make an off tv mode in most games. Without a gp off tv becomes the way a game works with a tv and pro controller.

Nintendo and requiring optional add ons. You make some good points here but listen to the flip side. In general we agree that Nintendo makes games based on how they want to make the game. This is why they want to stay a hw and sw company. Say the new Zelda is a gp only type of game. The optional sku people can't play it but I see no reason they couldn't sell this game bundled with a gp. You say people would be mad because if they grab this they were forced to buy a pro controller they don't need. I see no validity to this complaint. It's no different than the guy who was forced to buy a gp he didn't want or the person who was forced to buy a motion plus controller just for skyward sword.

Speaking of Zelda they said after skyward sword they couldn't see going back to buttons. They very well may use motion plus again and if they do how could they use the gp? Overall Nintendo makes the game they want and they have control over the hw.

Overall I feel the pro should be basically interchangeable with the gp for 90%+ of games. This is because the gp is used mainly as a pro controller for 90%+ of the time your forced to use it you don't need the other features.

Those with a gp have nothing to lose by increasing the support of the pro controller as an alternative to the gp and Nintendo has nothing to lose by giving consumers that choice.

Edited on by blaisedinsd

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blaisedinsd

580. Posted:

Basically making the gp optional involves supporting the pro controller better. Supporting the gp less is not something I see as a concern. Off tv play is basically free to developers since it's a hw solution and thinks that do require the gp are easily implemented more traditionally.

Basically batman uses the gp but still allows off screen play. This would make it compatible with out a gp

Lego city uses the gp but doesn't allow off tv play. This is sort of lazy by the devs, supporting off tv like batman increases the value of the gp. I don't see why they didn't do this.

A game that supports off tv play and gp features is a better value for me as a gp owner. If it becomes optional a game like Lego city then is motivated to implement a more traditional one screen button based experience. As a gp owner this means more support not less. Allowing the choice of a gp or a pro benefits everyone and makes wii u better IMO

Edited on by blaisedinsd

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