Topic: What does Nintendo have to lose by making the gamepad "optional"?

HAHA, yeah I have mostly been posting from my phone and this forum is so weird to me I barely can even tell who is posting.

In general I have been replying to this thread as practically a one on one dialogue. Dang I guess I am being weird. I am new here and not even really sure if I will hang around after this thread dies.

Yes, I would certainly be upset. Dropping the price of a system is one thing. Gutting it by removing the most unique and noteworthy aspect of its hardware is another.

Really?
1. The gamepad still works on all your current software just as it did before.
2. This is still the case for anyone who gets a gamepad now and in the future.
3. Nintendo has pledged to you they will continue to support the gamepad.
4. Third party support was dead in the water anyway and the major games coming were not going to be utilizing the gamepad anyway

I see no valid reason for you to be upset. Congrats you are a Wii U ambassador.

I am basically thinking they realized the non-essentialness of the gamepad when they were attempting to pull out all the stops in 3D world development. This game was the great hope to give Wii U an adrenaline shot. Seeing the best they could come up with was not justifying the cost of the gamepad coupled with their desire and inability to cut the consoles price in order to stimulate sales they get the idea. Tropical Freeze and Smash Bros. and Mario Kart development all were having trouble utilizing the gamepads features they decided this was the best option. Realizing this will be an embarrassment the same way the slashing of the 3DS price was to early adopters they need a good strategy. In preparation for this move they finally slash their ridiculously inflated sales forecast and at the earning meeting Iwata pledges they will focus on the gamepad and boast he toldl Miyamoto to go to town with his best single player experience utilizing the gamepads unique features that he can muster. The VC thing is just something I know tons of fans hope for and they have moved to get Nintendo Network ID on a single 3DS and allow multiple ID's per console. The entire concept of the gamepad was an attempt to reverse the trend they saw in Japan of handheld gaming becoming more popular than console gaming and their hopes that a second screen would solve this. They have gotten a bit gimmic crazy after the Wii and DS exploded largely because of their gimmics. 3D was the one they were banking on for the handheld. Overall the 2DS is a course correction because the 3D screen was expensive to manufacture and they also lost a patent lawsuit on the 3D screen. The software sales are pretty good but the 2DS cuts the fat from the unsuccessful gimmic allowing them to sell a cheaper console at higher profit margin. Making the gamepad optional is a SIMILAR strategy (please for the love of pete no one counter me with how it's not exactly the same thing) of cutting the fat from the unsuccessful gimmic in order to try to help the software sales. The ambassador idea is just a hope of mine and their moves with Nintendo Network ID give me hope for something like that. Anyway those are my wild conspiracy theories...I been thinking about this stuff way too much.

Oh and the last bit of conspiracy, Watchdogs is delayed on Wii U because Ubisoft was instructed to make it functional with out the gamepad. This is either the cause of the delay or Ubisoft is doing it because they are not happy about the gamepad becoming an add on after their efforts to support it.

You know the whole ambassador thing didn't go over so well? It's actually a losing strategy-- Appeasement.
So the only people who support the console initially can't hate you... but you still dragged them through the mud.

Everyone else will just resent the Ambassadors; it almost feels like intentional exclusion, gifts for the Nintendo faithful.
^ this last point matters only if console sales pick up immediately, so people notice they have an "inferior" package.

Really the biggest issue is Nintendo's credibility, after all the price cuts and stuff to screw early adopters, consumers might harbor ill-will. That feeling could extend to the next Nintendo launch, where people are distrustful of the cost, quality, hardware integrity, ongoing support...
There are some quirks inherent to Nintendo, and I think they should do the utmost to safeguard their reputation.

I had never heard this opinion of the 3DS ambassador program. In conversations I have had I always hear it claimed that the ambassadors were happy with their games and didn't complain. I guess I wasn't around much discussion of actual ambassadors at the time. Overall I think the strategy has proven succesful for 3DS so I wouldn't be surprised if it happened again. When you do the math I think the ambassadors got screwed, they were basically forced to accept specific games as gifts of a value of around $5 a pop instead of a refund if I remember from when I did the math.

For me it might have the opposite effect. I will buy early hoping I might become an ambassador. I stayed away from 3DS until that cost vs value equation swung to buy. I did the same with WIi U (I guess I really like 2D mario more than most, I wanted NSMBU and jumped when I saw a great sale in March). If Wii U ends up getting some ambassador benefit I will probably start buying every Nintendo console at launch just in case. Really the only Wii U owners who would have a reason to be upset are the guys like Howard who bought a Wii U inspite of the gamepad IMO. If you got the gamepad and like it you got the superior package in this case. I guess maybe refunds would be overboard, it's more likely to be another digital content appeasement type of thing again....no refunds or cross buy but you don't have to pay the upgrade fee anymore possibly.

The resentment and jealousy point don't compute...why the heck would that matter. Being an ambassador is a fanboy badge of honor that causes jealousy?

I agree it should be optional, they should put the Pro Controller instead of the Gamepad. Nintendo should do what Playstation did with there Playstation Eye. Took it off the PS4 and put it as a optional choice. So yes it should be done.

If your idea held any weight you wouldn't need to package it with a hypothetical Nintendo Direct that everyone had been demanding. If they did hold that direct I would be happy about all the VC stuffs naturally but wouldn't be so sure that the GamePad stuff was the right choice. As an owner of a GamePad I'd be wondering whether that would be the end of support especially if they're emphasising that they're patching games that required it. Also I resent your assertion that people who disagree with you are apparently emotionally unhinged.

Right. So Parents buying a console for their kid for use on the main TV being keen on the idea of kid-friendly touch screen games and freeing up the TV is niche. Absolutely right, you make perfect sense. Obviously everybody who's penny pinching has a TV in their kids room already so off-TV doesn't matter at all. Or that the core gamer cares because they're all about saving money even though they complain when a month goes by when there isn't a new AAA release for their PS4 with it's $100 controllers....

No your scenario makes much more sense. Clearly you've carefully considered who each SKU is targeting

Oh yeah, another part of my conspiracy theories if anyone is interested I'm reading them. This is a reason wii u marketing has been so weak. I believe it was alluded to at some point this was admitted to be a lack of effort. That makes sense if Nintendo realized the gamepad was not compelling and there wasn't enough games to really try to market the system at the price they had to sell it for.

Well you just said they got screwed, don't you think a few of them noticed?
Anyway for the most part Ambassadors were happy don't get me wrong, but there were also plenty of blowhards.
I was an ambassador; but also a savvy customer who paid $169.99 after a retroactive rebate. Hehe.

Yeah. I agree for the most part but, personally I was offended by the Wii U price cut (and better pack-in than Nintendo Land). So it depends.

I think what you really question is, are people on the Internet that focused on one-upping each other?
Well think about how passionate fanboys are...

So basically this: http://nintendoeverything.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/10/wii_...
came out of a meeting where they were all "well I don't know about this GamePad, maybe we should sit and wait before we push it"

You are right, I didn't quite mean it that way. Basically I don't personally see the reason for anyone to complain, but posts like yours made me realize that some people would be angry and it would be a bit of egg on Nintendos face. That is why I think they could present it gently and give reassurances that the gamepad will still be supported as well as the possibility of some type of Ambassador reward. That part of my conspiracy theory I credit to you and those who vehemently argued that this was a terrible idea that would never happen.

Right. So Parents buying a console for their kid for use on the main TV being keen on the idea of kid-friendly touch screen games and freeing up the TV is niche. Absolutely right, you make perfect sense. Obviously everybody who's penny pinching has a TV in their kids room already so off-TV doesn't matter at all. Or that the core gamer cares because they're all about saving money even though they complain when a month goes by when there isn't a new AAA release for their PS4 with it's $100 controllers....

No your scenario makes much more sense. Clearly you've carefully considered who each SKU is targeting

Glad to see you are finally understanding the point I have been trying to make. Both sides have something appealing, the budget game who doesn't find the gamepad compelling and the money bags who want a gamepad. The budget gamer who also wants the gamepad wouldn't be any more angry about the gamepad than they would be about anything else they want and can't afford.

I am glad you finally agree how consumer choice makes the most sense for trying to appeal to a wider audience.

@blaisedinsd
Either your sarcasm detector is broken or that was a bucketload of passive aggressive

This right here is basically the answer this entire thread has been asking.

If your not cursing Nintendo after this hypothetical announcement than I would say they have nothing to lose by making the gampad optional. (if they do it gently enough and offer some ambassador reward....)

I actually am a nintendo secret agent and now that I have convinced you Iwata is going to go ahead and green light all this.

Sarcasm detector? What's that? Ummmm....pay no attention to the man behind the curtain!

If you think that's the answer then you fail to understand the question you posed. The question was "what do Nintendo have to lose" not "would you rage quit if they did". I frankly wouldn't be that annoyed especially if they could deliver on your mythical "still all of the support" idea. I'm after getting the next Zelda with inventory and map on the bottom screen and X in whatever form it comes. I don't think that's what was being asked though.

My actual answer is that I think that they'd lose quite a lot. I don't see what this change is actually addressing or what type of consumer this new SKU is chasing after. The low end user isn't ranting about touch screen controls, the low end user can probably be sold on the idea. The people who do care are either already chasing after the PS4 or they're willing to spend enough that the price drop won't make any difference.

This alleged solution makes things more complicated than they need to be and kills one of the primary features of the console. Equally it doesn't address the main problem of software and instead means that Nintendo has to either live with less support for one SKU or actively go back and patch/rework existing games. I don't buy it.

@skywake

As long as you understand why it makes business sense for them to do this in the same ways it made business sense to release the 2DS then you should agree that the potential for "rage quit" is the only reason not to pull the trigger on it.

1. The lower price of entry for access to software- postive
2. Abandoning the gimmic decreases manufacturing cost to the point you can sell hardware at a higher profit margin- positive

I can translate this in to fastfood value meals too and call the games your soda (which is appropriate because fountain drinks are big profit for fast food).

The other thing is the confusion of what people can play with out a gamepad. I did a bit of experimenting.

1. I found ?you? were right about the eshop. I think I was mistaken because I checked quickly and you can access the eshop and it shows the buttons that would work if you pressed them on the gamepad. My bad on that. Text entry also is always required on the gamepad, but just like the eshop you can control it entirely with the gamepads buttons that are all common between it and the procontroller. These are both entirely unneccesarry limitations. I believe it was said netflix has the same problem.

2. 3D world. Entirely playable with no gamepad except captain toad and maybe 2 or 3 levels. Those specific levels give you a message you need the gamepad to play when you try to start them. Easily patched by Nintendo as easily as lowering the star requirements by the proper ratio or changing the touch and mic stuff to timing based.

3. Lego CIty. Gamepad is the only controller that can connect when game is launched. Game already lists Gamepad as required.

4. Zombi U. Won't even launch the game if gamepad is not connectied. Problem game since it lists pro controller and wiinunchuck support. This is just for multi-player where player 1 is the gamepad.

5. The rest of my games are either 2 screen only or support off TV which I believe means they could be made to function with out the gamepad on Wii U's system level. A weird button combo swtiches to the gamepad screen and allows the procontrollers buttons to emulate off tv mode.

5. System Settings. Easy to fix but currently required.

This gamesupport confusion is not our problem if we have a gamepad. This is a problem to someone buying a box that says "Not all Wii U software is compatible without the Wii U gamepad (sold seperately)

Really Wii and Wii U would benefit from listing required controllers/accessories and supported controllers/accessories separately.

See that's the thing, I don't think it makes business sense. Personally I think the "rage quit" is less of a problem to your argument than the failure to explain who this SKU is selling to. With the 2DS they made it clear that it was an extra SKU to sell to kids. Losing the 3D wasn't a big deal because it doesn't require any effort on Nintendo's part, retains full compatibility and eases the fear some people had giving their kids 3D.

So far your answer to who this SKU would appeal to is some ramble about how the market would work itself out. Your solution to the library split is to patch the GamePad out and ignore it from here on. Your solution to keep "thee rage down" is to keep the GamePad as a feature and ignore the GamePad-less SKU. These two things can't happen at once, they are contradictory. The only positive you've come up with is that it'll boost sales because it'll be cheaper. That's it.

Well damn, it could be cheaper without removing the GamePad. Explain why that's not a better option given that it lacks all of these other problems you've been talking about papering over. Then maybe I'll start to think of this as something other than conspiracy and clickbait.

That is why I left this up to you. Much better written than I could have done

Ok I will try to explain it again:

This SKU is targeted at any one who is more likely to buy a WIi U if it was cheaper. It provides a lower cost of entry to wii u software. This is appealing because games are what sell systems (outside of wii and Ds gimmic). You do lose something to get the cheaper price, but there is still appeal for the Wii U as basically an HD Wii that also supports a pro controller. Specifically people who are confused by the gamepad or simply don't like it, the Wii U is either easier to understand if they were confused or more appealing with out the gamepad. Basically the gamepad is now an add on you pay for if you want the features it brings and those features are now things you can't get with out paying extra. Just like Kinect with 360.

Or with the fastfood analogy. BIg Mac is the Wii U console. Fries are the gamepad. Drink is the software where the most profit is. Some people don't like fries. Others think the fries are the best part. The analogy works better if you say the BIg mac and the fries both make people thirsty so they buy the drinks (where the real profit is). It is not smart to force people buy a value meal in order to make them thirsty when you can sell big macs by themselves and fries by them selves. Some people will come to you for big macs because they love them, others will come for fries because the love them. If you only sell value meal then someone who hates the fries is less likely to come to you because you make them pay more than they need to by making them buy fries when they only want a bigmac. If you don't require value meals someone who doesn't have enough for a value meal or just isn't that hungry at the time can still buy just a big mac. There is no benefit to requiring people to buy fries with every single big mac.

The console is struggling and third party support is all but dead. Nintendo will be the only reliable source for software at all and they are pledging to support the gamepad. We trusted them to support it and thats why we bought the console. They have already reassured us they are going to support it, Miyamoto is under instruction to make the greatest gamepad game possible.

It can't be cheaper. Basically Wii U is already sold at a loss. Any price cut at this point means big losses instead of small ones. This is based on the $300 price that has always been the price. The software packin is not as big a deal because it's cheap to make the disc or print the download code. The best info I found was they need to sell more than 1 software title to get profitable, the deluxe was basically 1 software title (nintendoland $50 value but increases profit margin) and so only needed a fraction of a title sold to be profitable. Basically they can't make it cheaper with out making it a financial disaster. They are still trying to turn it profitable. My idea is a first step to try to boost sales that is way less painful than a real price cut. A real price cut would be a more valid reason to panic if your concerned for Nintendos profits than the gamepad becoming optional.

actually I don't know why I wasted my time with that last post when I aready explained it.

Don’t you understand:
it makes business sense for them to do this in the same ways it made business sense to release the 2DS
1. The lower price of entry for access to software- postive

2. Abandoning the gimmic decreases manufacturing cost to the point you can sell hardware at a higher profit margin- positive

What is there that you don’t understand. Yes it will have compatibility issues and won’t play all Wii U software without the gamepad but it’s appealing based on it’s compatible library and traditional one screen experience. The 2DS is not just targeted at kids, it makes business sense regardless.

You want anecdotal evidence?

My bro-in-law is somewhat interested in the Wii U but he is not sure if his kids will play it. I don’t know what he thinks of the gamepad.

I ask him if at $225 with a pro controller and no gamepad if Wii U is appealing.
He said $200 sounds better.
I ask him if it comes with 3D world is $225 sound good.
He asks if he could buy the gamepad later and how much it would be.
I told him between $75-100 for a gamepad.
He hasn’t responded yet.
He is a Sony fanboy by the way who has some nostalgia for Nintendo.

@blaisedinsd
The value meal analogy is odd and I wasn't the one who pushed it. I don't at all agree with its use because the Wii U is a platform not a consumable, the games are the consumables. The Wii U equivalent of a "value meal" would be New SMB + Luigi if it was to actually make sense. If you want to weave the Wii U and GamePad into the Maccas world then the Wii U is a Maccas store and the GamePad is the fryer. A Maccas can still function without it in theory but it significantly reduces its ability to sell its product.

And again, your only reason for this SKU is that it would sell to the people who want a cheaper console. It's already the cheapest next-gen console on the market for a start. Secondly you again fail to recognise the fact that the people who are after the cheaper console are also the people more likely to be interested in the GamePad. It's not like the 3DS where the low end purchase was from a buyer who was potentially scared about 3D. It's more like the Kinect where the Kinect SKU was the cheapest SKU and sold well because the low end consumer was into that sort of thing. Or the Wii where it was the same again.

Just like the Kinect the person who was not into it is the same person who's willing to get the more expensive SKU anyways. Unlike the Kinect the higher end consumer actually gets some value in the GamePad. So again, please explain who this SKU is actually selling to. Give me a short descriptive stereotype of what that person is. Like the 2DS where it was "Pokemon for Kid of 3D Panic parent" or Kinect/Wii Sports where it was "Budget motion control multi". What is the equivalent for this SKU?

[edit]
If your brother in law is asking about the GamePad already you're not really doing a good job of convincing me that it would be an easier sell without it.