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Topic: What does Nintendo have to lose by making the gamepad "optional"?

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Mahe

441. Posted:

AtaraxiaX wrote:

Mahe wrote:

What's more, the Gamepad is taking away from my Wii U experience because of games and apps where it's forced upon you. I'd like to use the eShop with a Wiimote, not possible. Result: I use the eShop less (and maybe buy less games?) I'd like to use Netflix with a Wiimote, not possible. Result: I'm considering using a PlayStation as my Netflix console. At least on PlayStation, you can use Netflix with a traditional pad, even if it's no Wiimote. I'd like to use the Wii U web browser fully with a Wiimote, not possible. Result: I use the Wii U web browser less than I would otherwise.

I've been reading bits and pieces of this discussion and this is something that keeps coming up that doesn't make any sense to me: "I don't want to have to get my gamepad to access the shop/etc." What's the difference between grabbing the gamepad and grabbing a Wii remote? Either way you're grabbing a controller.
Have I been missing out on some Wii remote feature that allows the Wii remote to magically be transported into your hand; a feature that the gamepad sorely lacks?

Yeah, the Wiimote quite literally is a magic wand. It gives you so much control in such a small controller, it's just incredible. You can easily use the Wiimote with just one hand, or you can rest it on the armrest of the sofa or wherever. And most people have several Wiimotes. This means that it's very easy to always have a Wiimote on hand. Not to mention the ease of use: just browsing the web by pointing at the TV screen, without having to hold a cumbersome Gamepad in two hands and squint at a small touch screen to browse on your big screen. The Gamepad is just idiotic.

And then there's the Gamepad battery, stand and charging cradle. Because of the poor battery and the way the Gamepad is constantly draining power, you probably want to have the Gamepad on its charging cradle as often as possible. This often means that it's out of reach, because that cradle needs space, and it needs a power outlet. The design of the Gamepad is just completely opposite to a controller you can just leave lying around anywhere, unlike the Wiimote.

This leads to situations where I'll rather turn Netflix off with a Wiimote (this can be done even though Wiimote isn't the supported controller for Netflix), or avoid going to the eShop because I have a Wiimote in my hand and opening the eShop would mean that I'd have to get the Gamepad. This is sheer idiotic software design from Nintendo, and the Wii U would be a better console without all these problems caused by the Gamepad.

Mahe

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blaisedinsd

442. Posted:

CanisWolfred wrote:

blaisedinsd wrote:

SCAR392 wrote:

blaisedinsd wrote:

Missing the point. You may as well ask why a tootsie roll isn't flying off the shelves at 5 cents a piece. If a tootsie roll was $1 it would have a problem.

This doesn't make any sense. We're comparing it to other consoles and their prices, and all you can think about is tootsie rolls being on sale for 5ยข?

If ouya had first party Nintendo games releasing on it for the first time ever in hd do you think it would be selling better at its price point?

Why do people around here have so much trouble comprehending analogies?

Because your anolgies suck. You said price was the issue, not value, not games, price! But it's not the issue, is it? It's the ****ing games! So why not just release the games? Why do they have to get rid of features and lower the price in order to sell a console when the problem is the lack of games? That's not going to solve the games problem, if anything it'll make it worse because of the split consumer base. Just wait until they release some more games. Geez.

Right when someone says price is always the issue most people realize that it's price vs value that is what is meant.

That's the point of the tootsie roll analogy.

I shouldn't always have to say price vs value is the issue. Price vs value is the thought process everyone goes through when they purchase anything.

When something is not selling as well as you hoped it's either the price or the value.

blaisedinsd

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blaisedinsd

443. Posted:

CanisWolfred wrote:

ferthepoet wrote:

This... exactly what I've been saying there are lots of people who would get Wii U for Smash if they didn't had to pay extra for the gamepad, a cheaper sku with no gamepad launching along smash is the way to go

Because if they just bundle a Deluxe console with Smash Bros., that won't be good enough?

It wouldn't do as well as a bundle that was $100 cheaper I don't think.

Do you think the lack of the off tv and the inability to play Nintendoland and game and Wario would be a problem for someone who wanted smash or do you think they would rather save $100?

Nintendo makes the same profit off this sale either way.

blaisedinsd

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skywake

444. Posted:

Super_Gravy wrote:

@skywake: I think he is talking about an audiences of Zelda fans that want to buy the Wii console for Twilight Princess or/and Skyward game but I wouldn't called them "idiot" either. A lot of them are turned off by those motion movement required for those games. Also some of us didn't have an reason to use "Off-TV Play" feature at all which is why some of us are complaining about the gamepad.

I say we keep the gamepad since I can see some interesting ideas in the future since Nintendo Land game. I don't think "Off-TV Play" feature is an enough to win costumers or fans over because they can argue with "I already have an TV" quote.

The thing is though that the Wii was successful despite those complaints and the GamePad is far less intrusive to the "traditional" control methods. The reason why the people think it's easy to remove is because of the fact that it's technically not that far removed from a traditional controller. You're playing on a traditional controller most of the time it's just that you have the added convenience of a second view. A second view that when traditionally required was put into a menu or splashed over the corner of the screen.

It's the "we're going to make the Wii U equivalent of Okami" developer that we haven't seen yet. Those are the sorts of games that I don't want to miss out on because Nintendo jumped at shadows. If people want their traditional controller though they already have it on either side of that screen. That's more than they had for Zeldas on the Wii so they just need to get over it.

Edited on by skywake

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blaisedinsd

445. Posted:

The mom and pop budget gamer being the target audience is irrelevant.

You don't think mom and pop would want the choice of saving $100 or splurging on a gamepad?

What if they are buying jr a console for his room where he will be mainly playing by himself?

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blaisedinsd

446. Posted:

skywake wrote:

Super_Gravy wrote:

@skywake: I think he is talking about an audiences of Zelda fans that want to buy the Wii console for Twilight Princess or/and Skyward game but I wouldn't called them "idiot" either. A lot of them are turned off by those motion movement required for those games. Also some of us didn't have an reason to use "Off-TV Play" feature at all which is why some of us are complaining about the gamepad.

I say we keep the gamepad since I can see some interesting ideas in the future since Nintendo Land game. I don't think "Off-TV Play" feature is an enough to win costumers or fans over because they can argue with "I already have an TV" quote.

The thing is though that the Wii was successful despite those complaints and the GamePad is far less intrusive to the "traditional" control methods. The reason why the people think it's easy to remove is because of the fact that it's technically not that far removed from a traditional controller. You're playing on a traditional controller most of the time it's just that you have the added convenience of a second view. A second view that when traditionally required was put into a menu or splashed over the corner of the screen.

It's the "we're going to make the Wii U equivalent of Okami" developer that we haven't seen yet. Those are the sorts of games that I don't want to miss out on because Nintendo jumped at shadows. If people want their traditional controller though they already have it on either side of that screen. That's more than they had for Zeldas on the Wii so they just need to get over it.

Exactly. Your starting to see my reason as far as the gp being mainly a traditional controller.

Those type of games are more likely if the wii u is more successful. I think people who hated motion control might like the wii u because traditional controls are supported more than the classic was on the wii. Yet you still support motion controls as well. Choice is the best thing for the consumer and the seller.

Making the gp optional has the chance to make the wii u more successful. We got a game like red steel 2 that required motion plus on wii even though motion plus was a small segment of the wii install base. These games are still possible. The wii u being more successful due to the option also helps the gamepad. Anyone without one has more opportunity to see its value. I don't think keeping it mandatory with a struggling console whose install base ignores third party games is more likely to spawn that type of game. A more successful console with a split user base is more likely to attract that IMO.

Separating the success of the gamepad from the success of the console helps both be more successful just like mcdonalds selling value meals and fries.

Edited on by blaisedinsd

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skywake

447. Posted:

blaisedinsd wrote:

The mom and pop budget gamer being the target audience is irrelevant.
You don't think mom and pop would want the choice of saving $100 or splurging on a gamepad?
What if they are buying jr a console for his room where he will be mainly playing by himself?

Right, lets make business decisions by completely ignoring the type of consumer we're actually targeting. Then make niche use cases to justify our decisions after the fact. The reason why little Johnny's parents got him a TV for his room is because they were sick of the TV being hogged by Disney movie cash-in #24. Now they're saving $300 splurging on a TV for the kid because the thing has a screen on it. It's intuitive how the GamePad can appeal to the budget end of the market, those consumers are the ones that the concept can be most easily sold to.

What the thrust of this SKU idea isn't is something that would appeal to the premium end of the market. The same end of the market that might simultaneously rant about how they dislike the GamePad. A fair number of those people are more than willing to get two consoles. If they are into Smash they're not going to be playing single player. Day 1 they're getting four Pro Controllers..... so to say that cost is a barrier to those people is to ignore reality.

blaisedinsd wrote:

Exactly. Your starting to see my reason as far as the gp being mainly a traditional controller.
Those type of games are more likely if the wii u is more successful.

Chicken and egg. The Wii U is only successful if those types of games exist, they won't exist if you make the primary SKU lack the the unique features of the Wii U. Without the GamePad it's a Nintendo 360 and little more. I was merely making the point that the whine about it being a non-traditional controller are baseless given that it is a traditional controller at its core. Its nowhere near as weird to make games for or as grating as the Wii was. The Wii last I checked was not a failure.

Edited on by skywake

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blaisedinsd

448. Posted:

Don't you see that your example is the one making the business decision for a niche case? Giving the option allows both options so your targeting a wider audience. Since nintendos profit is the same in either case this is a no lose business strategy.

I agree it is chicken and egg. But you are ignoring the ability of non-gamepad centric games to help the console succeed and being narrow minded thinking only gamepad centered games can accomplish that. In either case third party games are more likely on a more successful console whether it's 100% gamepad users or not. Gamepad support will come from Nintendo regardless because, well that's how they roll. If anything if this move killed the gamepad almost entirely the people with gamepad would almost be on the level of 3ds ambassadors. They will take care of us. If I am right than this was likely the reason iwata made a point to say they were planning to focus on the gamepad, to begin to reassure us if this move is coming in the next 3 months and quell fears of early adopters crying about that there gamepad won't be supported.

Edited on by blaisedinsd

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blaisedinsd

449. Posted:

Nintendo direct next week:

1. Iwata explains the situation as I have to you

2. He talks about the appeal of the gamepad and off tv play and emphasizes the best gamepad centered experiences we have had on the console. He tells us they are committed to developing more software centered around the unique features of the gamepad and maybe even teases a concept.

3. He then begins to talk about the great games on the way. He them drops the bomb: they have realized that these games do not directly benefit from the unique features of the gamepad and in an effort to get these games to the widest audience of people they have decided to release a version of the wii u that does not include the gamepad. The software just works at this point with there summer update and they announce this bundle will come with a pro controller and sell for $225 with the patched version of 3D world. He assures those who still want to panic that off tv play will be a feature available on all software not designed to take advantage of the second screen.

4. He tells us which games won't be patched and will not be playable with out the gamepad.

5. As a gesture he announces all upgrade pricing paid on virtual console will be refunded and future titles will become automatically available on wii u and 3ds based on your Nintendo network id. In the future they may charge upgrade pricing on future consoles.

If this were to happen who is going to complain?

If it happened this way the haters will still hate on the gamepad but we won't care and we will still say how great it is. Always the one to copy a week later Microsoft announce new xbone bundle. Is it really that outlandish a scenario?

Edited on by blaisedinsd

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CanisWolfred

450. Posted:

blaisedinsd wrote:

Is it really that outlandish a scenario?

Yes, considering they've already stated that they're going to try to prove the worth of the Gamepad, which dropping the Gamepad goes against in every way, I'd be very, very, very surprised if Nintendo did what you just said.

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blaisedinsd

451. Posted:

CanisWolfred wrote:

blaisedinsd wrote:

Is it really that outlandish a scenario?

Yes, considering they've already stated that they're going to try to prove the worth of the Gamepad, which dropping the Gamepad goes against in every way, I'd be very, very, very surprised if Nintendo did what you just said.

But would you be upset?

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CanisWolfred

452. Posted:

Not really. I bought a Wii U solely for X and I don't care if the system dies tomorrow, so long as I still get X. I still think your idea is stupid and doomed to failure, but at this point, I don't care about the Wii U anymore, as I stopped being a Nintendo fan way back in 2009, so if it causes more harm than good, then so be it.

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blaisedinsd

453. Posted:

Ok then.

This has basically been my point the entire thread.

Would that hypothetical Nintendo direct leave you upset?

That is all I have been asking the whole time basically. If your not upset than Nintendo loses nothing by this move financially. At this point I think they would be foolish to not do some form of this that makes the gamepad optional.

Edited on by blaisedinsd

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CanisWolfred

454. Posted:

blaisedinsd wrote:

Ok then.

This has basically been my point the entire thread.

Would that hypothetical Nintendo direct leave you upset?

That is all I have been asking the whole time basically. If your not upset than Nintendo loses nothing by this move financially. At this point I think they would be foolish to not do some form of this that makes the gamepad optional.

No, it's foolish to make it optional. I'm not upset because Nintendo is dead to me already. I'm sure others actually want to see the system succeed.

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blaisedinsd

455. Posted:

Yeah I don't see how it's foolish.

Maybe it's a bit of egg on their face and seen as an admission that the gamepad is a failure. They can spin it otherwise.

Bottom line I would be happy, Howard24 would be happy, and those disagreeing in this thread wouldn't be too upset and they would be stoked about the virtual console. It's basically the same situation as early 3ds adopters buying before the price cut. They were not upset because they became ambassadors.

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CanisWolfred

456. Posted:

I don't think you understand. I'm the wrong person here to ask when it comes to being emotionally invested. I can't believe you actually think I'm a proper example here when I've already stated that Nintendo's future is of no importance to me. I don't actually have to care when I think something's right. All I care about is making sure people understand why it's right.

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Ralizah

457. Posted:

It'd be an awful decision, as it would quickly lead to the GamePad becoming completely irrelevant, and remove the one hardware feature that really distinguishes the Wii U from its next-gen competition.

Nintendo needs to create games that really make the GamePad indispensable to gameplay. From what I've seen, Rayman Legends has made the best use of the GamePad thus far, which is unacceptable.

Edited on by Ralizah

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blaisedinsd

458. Posted:

CanisWolfred wrote:

I don't think you understand. I'm the wrong person here to ask when it comes to being emotionally invested. I can't believe you actually think I'm a proper example here when I've already stated that Nintendo's future is of no importance to me. I don't actually have to care when I think something's right. All I care about is making sure people understand why it's right.

Well I am not only asking you.....

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blaisedinsd

459. Posted:

Ralizah wrote:

It'd be an awful decision, as it would quickly lead to the GamePad becoming completely irrelevant, and remove the one hardware feature that really distinguishes the Wii U from its next-gen competition.

Nintendo needs to create games that really make the GamePad indispensable to gameplay. From what I've seen, Rayman Legends has made the best use of the GamePad thus far, which is unacceptable.

Yeah, but would you be upset if they gave you your VC library for free on WIi U and 3DS to smooth things over?

Would you understand why they were doing it?

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blaisedinsd

460. Posted:

Yes it would be egg on their face but I got all sorts of conspiracy theories floating in my head at this point that hint at this possibly happening before Mario Kart drops. Heck I am so convinced that it makes sense as the right move for the console maybe they do this before Tropical Freeze drops so people are not wondering what the heck their gamepad screen is shutting off for when they play it.

If so credit to whoever wrote that piece I linked to on the original post.

I would totally be stoked on that VC announcement, it would be like Christmas.

Edited on by blaisedinsd

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