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Topic: What does Nintendo have to lose by making the gamepad "optional"?

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CanisWolfred

421. Posted:

ferthepoet wrote:

This... exactly what I've been saying there are lots of people who would get Wii U for Smash if they didn't had to pay extra for the gamepad, a cheaper sku with no gamepad launching along smash is the way to go

Because if they just bundle a Deluxe console with Smash Bros., that won't be good enough?

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SCAR392

422. Posted:

blaisedinsd wrote:

SCAR392 wrote:

CanisWolfred wrote:

blaisedinsd wrote:

Price is always the issue.

Then why is the OUYA not flying off the shelves? It's cheaper than everything else. If all people care about is price, then why is the cheapest available option not the most popular?

He doesn't know WTF he's talking about. That's why.

You honestly don't think the wii u would be selling better at $200 than $300?

You don't know wtf your talking about.

Being cheap was an advantage for the wii that the wii u doesn't have.

I'm not saying the Wii U wouldn't sell better at $200. I'm saying that excluding the GamePad to reach a lower price isn't rational, especially with the recent $50 price cut.

That last part is a lie. The Wii U is still $100-$200 cheaper than the other consoles, yet you're asking it to be even cheaper than last gen consoles. You have no clue how to value these SKUs at all, which is why this thread is a bunch of jibberish, at best.

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CanisWolfred

423. Posted:

blaisedinsd wrote:

SCAR392 wrote:

blaisedinsd wrote:

Missing the point. You may as well ask why a tootsie roll isn't flying off the shelves at 5 cents a piece. If a tootsie roll was $1 it would have a problem.

This doesn't make any sense. We're comparing it to other consoles and their prices, and all you can think about is tootsie rolls being on sale for 5¢?

If ouya had first party Nintendo games releasing on it for the first time ever in hd do you think it would be selling better at its price point?

Why do people around here have so much trouble comprehending analogies?

Because your anolgies suck. You said price was the issue, not value, not games, price! But it's not the issue, is it? It's the ****ing games! So why not just release the games? Why do they have to get rid of features and lower the price in order to sell a console when the problem is the lack of games? That's not going to solve the games problem, if anything it'll make it worse because of the split consumer base. Just wait until they release some more games. Geez.

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SCAR392

424. Posted:

blaisedinsd wrote:

SCAR392 wrote:

blaisedinsd wrote:

Missing the point. You may as well ask why a tootsie roll isn't flying off the shelves at 5 cents a piece. If a tootsie roll was $1 it would have a problem.

This doesn't make any sense. We're comparing it to other consoles and their prices, and all you can think about is tootsie rolls being on sale for 5¢?

If ouya had first party Nintendo games releasing on it for the first time ever in hd do you think it would be selling better at its price point?

Why do people around here have so much trouble comprehending analogies?

Your "analogy" didn't imply that at all. If you're comparing the OUYA to the Wii U, the prices are going to be different. If you say price is all that matters, then there's no way to describe what each console has to offer besides its monetary value, which is missing the point entirely.

Edited on by SCAR392

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RancidVomit86

425. Posted:

Honestly if they make the gamepad optional then it will turn into should they just ditch it because how much support would there be for it? Making an optional piece of hardware is kinda a risky move.

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Jazzer94

426. Posted:

@blaisedinsd Its become so unclear what point you are trying to make its just ridiculous at this point, the Wii U is $100 freaking cheaper then the other 8th gen consoles the price isn't the issue it never has been its getting the games out the door and properly advertised my god this thread is stupid 22 pages and you've made no compelling arguments for why the Wii U would benefit from not having the gamepad.

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blaisedinsd

427. Posted:

SCAR392 wrote:

@blaisedinsd
People that complain about the GamePad, have still apparently bought it, based on @Mahe has said, so who cares? He still bought a Wii U, even though he is not particularly interested in the GamePad, because he still wanted the games that it had. Nintendo's marketing message is that the second screen adds more to their software, which it does, and is why they want to focus on that aspect. They've said that numerous times, especially in the wake of doubters that were there before any sign of trouble, anyway.

EDIT: Also, if you want to consider the GamePad as 33% of the price, you would have to realize that another 10% or so of that is just as invested into the Wii U, beside the GamePad. You're failing to understand that they are basically tied by hardware, and you're price concern is inconsistent. You were telling me that price didn't matter at the beginning of this thread, but now you're switching your stance on that particular area.

EDIT2: If people want the software, they will buy the Wii U with a GamePad as it is.

That is not quite true. There are people who feel that way about the gamepad who have not bought a Wii U. For $200 they might, they would be even more likely if they knew the gamepad was optional. Nintendo can't sell the Wii U with a gamepad for $200 but they could possibly sell a Wii U with no gamepad for $200 and still have the exact same profit margin of the console at $300.

The gamepad is an issue for some people. Making it optional eliminates that barrier.

The Wii U is too expensive for some people. Lowering the cost removes that barrier.

If Nintendo can remove 2 barriers to Wii U adoption while maintainig there same profit margin than it makes all the business sense in the world.

It makes much more sense than simply focusing more on the issue that has made your console too expensive and failed to interest anyone.

As much as you love the gamepad I am pretty sure you bought the Wii U for games. Focusing on the gamepad makes sense as a strategy to sell more gamepads more than it makes sense as a strategy to sell Wii U consoles.

So we have established that making the Wii U software optional is a good idea. We have established that software support of the gamepad is largely dead outside of Nintendos claim to focus on making it more compelling after they have largely ignored it. We have established that the consoles biggest games will not be using the gamepad in any meaningful way. We have established that the gamepad is around 1/3 of the cost of the Wii U and that Nintendo can not afford a price cut.

The only points that people are refusing to accept is that
1. Price is an issue and a lower price will help sales.
2. Offering the optional SKU does not create huge problems due to some incompatibility or brand issues

For #1 it is so obvious that I have difficulty thinking it is even worth discussing.
For #2 there is definitely room for debate but I don't think you can make a serious argument that the gamepad has established itself as a compelling and neccessary system wide feature. a) The gamepad only games have limited appeal b) the added on gamepad features are less compelling than Off Tv play and Off Tv play is something the Wii U can do for any game that only requires a single screen (Im looking at you Lego City and Zombi U).

blaisedinsd

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Turnip

428. Posted:

Mahe wrote:

What's more, the Gamepad is taking away from my Wii U experience because of games and apps where it's forced upon you. I'd like to use the eShop with a Wiimote, not possible. Result: I use the eShop less (and maybe buy less games?) I'd like to use Netflix with a Wiimote, not possible. Result: I'm considering using a PlayStation as my Netflix console. At least on PlayStation, you can use Netflix with a traditional pad, even if it's no Wiimote. I'd like to use the Wii U web browser fully with a Wiimote, not possible. Result: I use the Wii U web browser less than I would otherwise.

I've been reading bits and pieces of this discussion and this is something that keeps coming up that doesn't make any sense to me: "I don't want to have to get my gamepad to access the shop/etc." What's the difference between grabbing the gamepad and grabbing a Wii remote? Either way you're grabbing a controller.
Have I been missing out on some Wii remote feature that allows the Wii remote to magically be transported into your hand; a feature that the gamepad sorely lacks?

Edited on by Turnip

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blaisedinsd

429. Posted:

RancidVomit86 wrote:

Honestly if they make the gamepad optional then it will turn into should they just ditch it because how much support would there be for it? Making an optional piece of hardware is kinda a risky move.

So what exactly are we worrying about with the gamepad being ditched?

Are we worried we won't get Game and Wario 2? Are we worried lego city and zombiu would come out and support off tv play? What is this application of the gamepad that you are so concerned about losing?

The games coming that will sell the Wii U don't need the gamepad. Heck, Super mario 3D world doesn't need the gamepad. If you don't have to blow on your mic to make a platform move or touch your screen to answer a call or move your gamepad around to use your scanner are you going to lose your mind and curse Nintendo for abandoning the gamepad?

No, you won't care because all the software that currently uses the gamepad will still use the gamepad, and you still have Miyamotos single player gamepad game to look forward to, and you still get off tv play for every single future title released on the console till the end of time.

blaisedinsd

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blaisedinsd

430. Posted:

AtaraxiaX wrote:

I've been reading bits and pieces of this discussion and this is something that keeps coming up that doesn't make any sense to me: "I don't want to have to get my gamepad to access the shop/etc." What's the difference between grabbing the gamepad and grabbing a Wii remote? Either way you're grabbing a controller.
Have I been missing out on some Wii remote feature that allows the Wii remote to magically be transported into your hand; a feature that the gamepad sorely lacks?

1. Some people don't like it because it's too big.
2. I like it, but sometimes I am on the couch with my procontroller and I want to play a game and I can't unless I grab the gamepad off the charger
3. What if your gamepad breaks, is lost, has a dead battery. It is nice for it not to cripple the console's functionallity

They have been moving the software in this direction already. I can now navigate the eshop with my pro-controller. This will continue to evolve and it should because it makes the Wii U better. Giving consumers options and choices will only be appreciated and not annoy anyone.

blaisedinsd

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SCAR392

431. Posted:

blaisedinsd wrote:

They have been moving the software in this direction already. I can now navigate the eshop with my pro-controller.

You're going to need to show some video proof.

Whenever I launch the eShop, it tells me I need the GamePad, and my Pro controller doesn't do anything. Either you're lying, or they gave you a firmware upgrade outside of the U.S.

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blaisedinsd

432. Posted:

Jazzer94 wrote:

@blaisedinsd Its become so unclear what point you are trying to make its just ridiculous at this point, the Wii U is $100 freaking cheaper then the other 8th gen consoles the price isn't the issue it never has been its getting the games out the door and properly advertised my god this thread is stupid 22 pages and you've made no compelling arguments for why the Wii U would benefit from not having the gamepad.

1. The Wii U is the most expensive Nintendo console ever
2. The Wii was originally $250 while the PS3 was $500 (360 was basically $400 outside of gimped models)
3. The Wii U has always been $300, the price cut is not a real price cut until it's cheaper than $300

After the wii sports craze wore off the Wii dropped to $200 and continued to do quite well because it had a huge library of shovelware and great games that were family friendly.

The gamecube was selling for $99 after about 2 years and still only moved about 22 million consoles lifetime. The Wii U's best hope is to retain as much as the Wii audience as it can. It can not do that at $300 and Nintendo has no ability to cut the price with out absolutely turning the console in the worst disaster it has ever had.

blaisedinsd

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blaisedinsd

433. Posted:

SCAR392 wrote:

blaisedinsd wrote:

They have been moving the software in this direction already. I can now navigate the eshop with my pro-controller.

You're going to need to show some video proof.

Whenever I launch the eShop, it tells me I need the GamePad, and my Pro controller doesn't do anything. Either you're lying, or they gave you a firmware upgrade outside of the U.S.

Nope, try it. I am in the US and tried this the other day. You can use the web browse as well.

Sytem settings and password entry at log in are about the only things left outside of games that act weird when you start them and require the GP.

We are almost there as far as software support.

blaisedinsd

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Jazzer94

434. Posted:

blaisedinsd wrote:

Jazzer94 wrote:

@blaisedinsd Its become so unclear what point you are trying to make its just ridiculous at this point, the Wii U is $100 freaking cheaper then the other 8th gen consoles the price isn't the issue it never has been its getting the games out the door and properly advertised my god this thread is stupid 22 pages and you've made no compelling arguments for why the Wii U would benefit from not having the gamepad.

1. The Wii U is the most expensive Nintendo console ever
2. The Wii was originally $250 while the PS3 was $500 (360 was basically $400 outside of gimped models)
3. The Wii U has always been $300, the price cut is not a real price cut until it's cheaper than $300

After the wii sports craze wore off the Wii dropped to $200 and continued to do quite well because it had a huge library of shovelware and great games that were family friendly.

The gamecube was selling for $99 after about 2 years and still only moved about 22 million consoles lifetime. The Wii U's best hope is to retain as much as the Wii audience as it can. It can not do that at $300 and Nintendo has no ability to cut the price with out absolutely turning the console in the worst disaster it has ever had.

You do know what inflation is right?

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Howard24U

435. Posted:

@blaisedinsd I'm with you on all your comments, but I had to give up on this discussion.

When people insist that "$10 - $8 = $5 and third party support divided by the Xbox Kinect implies that Wii Motion+ improves MK8 and the additional Wii U price drop compared to the PSP Go with the Gamepad-less SKU is equal to or better than a Pro Controller divided by Virtual Console support..."

Well, in those cases I just give up.

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RancidVomit86

436. Posted:

@blaisedinsd I will tell you why to be worried if they ditch the gamepad. We will see the situation get worse. Remember the Gamecube? If Nintendo kept on that path they would had truly been doomed. They had to reinvent themselves because they were lagging behind the competitions sales trying to go head-to-head with traditional gaming. Nintendo needs something more so they can differentiate themselves from the competition. Mario isn't enough to do it anymore.

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skywake

437. Posted:

blaisedinsd wrote:

Another thought, Mario kart and smash have fan bases who didn't care for the wiis motion controls. They preferred the gamecube controller. Tons of them did. Motion controls were almost a negative for them.

Some hardcore smash fans require gamecube controllers because of lag and interference. Tournament level smash is played this way. These people don't want a game pad. They would be happiest for a wired option and unfortunately the pro controller doesn't communicate over USB.

Release a wired gamecube controller solution and a no gamepad sku that's cheaper and these fans would rejoice.

The thing is motion controls were not required for either of those games and I don't think Smash even had it turned on by default. You fail to remember the fact that the Wii came with a little thing called the nunchuck that allowed you to play those games with what was basically the traditional control method. So anyone the people who refused to buy the game for the control options are idiots. As for wired... you're kidding right? Now not only is the GamePad a bad idea but they should literally go back to being wired. If you really want wired keep it on charge. This has got to be a troll post.

Then there's also the fact that the "core" gamer, as I have said a few times with you repeatedly not addressing it, is not the person who wants a cheaper price. The person who wants the cheaper price is the Mum & Dad buyer. The very same consumer who's probably the most interested in the idea of touch screen controls and off-TV play.

Lastly the rant about how horrible it is from @Mahe a person who gladly purchased it. I find it interesting that someone would try to argue that they don't browse the eShop because they simply refuse to use the GamePad. Personally I find myself browsing the eShop and purchasing more content because I don't have to turn on the TV. Quite a few indie titles I have brought, played and finished without turning the TV on. I'm sorry, I can't take the opinions of someone who's "actively boycotting" a controller on the console they purchased seriously. It's just childish.

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Super_Gravy

438. Posted:

@skywake: I think he is talking about an audiences of Zelda fans that want to buy the Wii console for Twilight Princess or/and Skyward game but I wouldn't called them "idiot" either. A lot of them are turned off by those motion movement required for those games. Also some of us didn't have an reason to use "Off-TV Play" feature at all which is why some of us are complaining about the gamepad.

I say we keep the gamepad since I can see some interesting ideas in the future since Nintendo Land game. I don't think "Off-TV Play" feature is an enough to win costumers or fans over because they can argue with "I already have an TV" quote.

Edited on by Super_Gravy

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SCAR392

439. Posted:

blaisedinsd wrote:

SCAR392 wrote:

blaisedinsd wrote:

They have been moving the software in this direction already. I can now navigate the eshop with my pro-controller.

You're going to need to show some video proof.

Whenever I launch the eShop, it tells me I need the GamePad, and my Pro controller doesn't do anything. Either you're lying, or they gave you a firmware upgrade outside of the U.S.

Nope, try it. I am in the US and tried this the other day. You can use the web browse as well.

Sytem settings and password entry at log in are about the only things left outside of games that act weird when you start them and require the GP.

We are almost there as far as software support.

I just tried it, though. It doesn't work. I know you can use the web browser, but not the eShop. It specifically says you can't and I just tried it, so you're going to have to post a video.

Not that it really matters. I use the GamePad anyway. For someone who "loves" the GamePad, you sure can't understand how it improves software, the OS, Nintendo, and consumers.

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skywake

440. Posted:

ferthepoet wrote:

This... exactly what I've been saying there are lots of people who would get Wii U for Smash if they didn't had to pay extra for the gamepad, a cheaper sku with no gamepad launching along smash is the way to go

And which SKU are those Smash Bros fanatics going to pick up out of the current SKUs? The Basic model with 8GB of storage or the Premium bundle with New SMB and 32GB of storage? The people who are advocating for the removal of the GamePad here have a fundamental misunderstanding of what the different sets of customers want. The person rabid about Smash isn't going to buy the cheapest SKU they can get just so they can play single player Smash. They're going to get the Premium bundle so they can download all the demos and indie games and then they're going to go out and get four Pro Controllers. Case and point the rant on the page prior from the person who hated the thing but got it anyways....

The customer who cares about price is not that same person. They're, as I said, more likely the Mum & Dad buying it for their kid. If anyone is interested in the GamePad with its potential for touch screen games and it's off-TV play it would be those Mum & Dad consumers. Anecdotal evidence I know but looking at the demo kiosks in shops I frequently see kids playing New SMB on the GamePad. So making the cheaper SKU remove the GamePad seems a bit counter-productive. If I was buying for a kid I'd be going "YES! OFF TV PLAY! They can do their thing and not interrupt the footy"

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