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Topic: What does Nintendo have to lose by making the gamepad "optional"?

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blaisedinsd

361. Posted:

Think of it this way, they release a standalone gamepad that has a disc slot and plays wii u games on one screen.

This has the benefit of being portable but only plays one screen games. Is it not compelling because it doesn't play the entire library?

That would be awesome I feel. A "1s" sku is appealing the same minus the portability. If you can offer this at a lower price at a higher profit those who buy a handheld console for reasons other than portability could be interested.

blaisedinsd

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SCAR392

362. Posted:

@blaisedinsd
You're still ignoring that the GamePad was built in tandem with other components. If you exclude it, you would literally be devaluing other parts of the hardware.

GamePad SKU = $300
Hypothetical GamePad-less SKU = $250

First of all, they already sell SKUs at $250, in some cases. The reasom why it would only knock off $50, is because that includes the rest of the price they have excluded(the already existent price drop), and the extra investment that Nintendo has made to incorporate it, down to the way its hardware was designed. They can't charge you for something that will be basically useless. Then, they would have to charge an additional $20 or so dollors to compensate their GPGPU and wireless chip cost, resulting in a higher priced solo GamePad.

For people who already bught the GamePad SKU, they would be buying an extra GamePad for $20 or so more, because they have to recoop the loss they made by seling an SKU without it.

The $50 price drop has already knocked down the price on the console. You're asking for the price to be lowered, when it already has been.

It would be like your Chevy dealership lowered the price on their last years model, but as soon as they lower the price, you try to haggle far below what they're willing to sell it for, and ask if they'll exclude the 2 year warranty in exchange for a cheaper price.

The dealership says no, and you don't understand.

"Why won't they drop the price?" - They already did
"Why won't they exclude the warranty?" - It's part of the deal
"Can I buy the cars without tires, then put on the ones I have laying at home?" - No

EDIT: Another example would be asking for a car without a paint job. They don't have a car without paint. Maybe they should start selling cars without a paint job? They aren't going to do that though. It's common sense.

Edited on by SCAR392

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blaisedinsd

363. Posted:

@scar392

I don't quite follow what you are saying here.

Fist of all, we have a fundamental difference of opinion and how discounted a "1s" sku could be. There are many factors to consider but fundamentally we disagree. The parts break down article reported the gamepad components alone cost about $80 and some one else said the replacement gamepad is $150. I am not sure of the details but if the components alone are $80 we are probably talking about $100 of the consoles price is the gamepad. The $250 sky landers bundle is kind of unofficial and shouldn't be used as a price comparison.

The devaluing of the console is an argument I have basically ignored. I don't see how it's relevant. I think they are not currently even producing consoles and have inventory surplus based on the original sales projections. There may or may not be a stock of 8gb consoles in addition to what they tried to move with sky landers. Either way the chipsets value is not really applicable because of the surplus inventory. These consoles are completely devalued by not being sold and any method that gets them sold at a profit is what matters. You could argue the NFC is a waste the same way because it's not used. It doesn't really matter one way or the other. These are components that are already paid for and whether the are utilized is about the efficiency of the hw utilization and not the cost/profit equation.

The sky landers bundle is a great value because the 8gb console is obsolete and sky landers itself is being discounted as well. I think this bundle is really just a strategy to cut losses and is not making a profit.

I will grant you that this an unknown and I keep saying the pricing is flexible. The pricing would be based on many factors but overall the components break down shows the gamepad is a large percentage of the cost based on components. It is about 1/3 of the cost of the console ( around $150 console and $80 gamepad.). They could discount as much as possible which could be $200 to try and move as many "1s" skus as possible or they can make it a lesser value in order to ensure the gp sku remains the clear value and the better seller. It depends what they want to accomplish.

blaisedinsd

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SCAR392

364. Posted:

blaisedinsd wrote:

@scar392
The devaluing of the console is an argument I have basically ignored. I don't see how it's relevant.

This is why the thread is pointless.

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CanisWolfred

365. Posted:

@blaisedinsd

And none of that sounds like a reason to focus on moving what they already have? Because to mean it sounds like since they spent so much money on it, they sure really be using it instead of making a second SKU that will compete with the current one for sales.

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ZeroZX_Dev

366. Posted:

SCAR392 wrote:

blaisedinsd wrote:

@scar392
The devaluing of the console is an argument I have basically ignored. I don't see how it's relevant.

This is why the thread is pointless.

^This. Just, this.
Let me put it this way:
What made the Wii? Motion Controls
What makes the Wii U? The GamePad.
Take away the motion controls: you got a slightly better GameCube.
Take away the GamePad: you got a slightly better Wii ( or a Wii HD).
Do you see the problem now?

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blaisedinsd

367. Posted:

Overall these arguments could be leveled at the 2ds.

Ultimately the business strategy is the same. Overall the game pad is more than 1/3 of the manufacturing cost of the console and that 1/3 is not pulling it's weight. The main idea of the console is the second screen is supposed to make it as appealing as the handheld to the Japanese market. Off tv play is the #1 feature of the game pad and it is irrelevant to a large portion of potential buyers. If off tv is not important the tacked on features and best efforts to make the 2 screen experience appealing have failed to capture the attention of the public. The wiis success was two fold, wii sports was a pop culture phenomenon and then as that faded it succeeded as the budget friendly and family friendly alternative. The wii u needs to focus on being the family friendly budget friendly console. Mario kart wii was huge but it needs to be more budget friendly for Mario kart 8 to reach the same audience. If you have a $200 Mario kart 8 bundle you are going to sell massively better than at $300. At $200 they are half the cost of ps4 and your old controllers work. That's impulse buy level for many I believe.

blaisedinsd

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blaisedinsd

368. Posted:

ZeroZX_Dev wrote:

SCAR392 wrote:

blaisedinsd wrote:

@scar392
The devaluing of the console is an argument I have basically ignored. I don't see how it's relevant.

This is why the thread is pointless.

^This. Just, this.
Let me put it this way:
What made the Wii? Motion Controls
What makes the Wii U? The GamePad.
Take away the motion controls: you got a slightly better GameCube.
Take away the GamePad: you got a slightly better Wii ( or a Wii HD).
Do you see the problem now?

If the motion controls were not effective at marketing the console and were 1/3 of the cost of the console the wii would be the wii u.

Any hope of capturing that wii market, that Mario kart market, is to go hard at being the budget option.

The gamepad is a failure at this point as far as helping to sell wii u. It's too expensive. They can't easily shake free of the mistake.

Edited on by blaisedinsd

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SCAR392

369. Posted:

blaisedinsd wrote:

Overall these arguments could be leveled at the 2ds.

False.
2DS lacking 3D doesn't effect compatible software and the OS.

Excluding the GamePad would negate or leave gaps in software and the OS.

They already dropped the price by $50 for the Deluxe Set. Apply that $50 savings to the $80 GamePad, and it's a $30 difference, which is basically what you would have bern paying for another controller anyway.

Edited on by SCAR392

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blaisedinsd

370. Posted:

SCAR392 wrote:

blaisedinsd wrote:

Overall these arguments could be leveled at the 2ds.

False.
2DS lacking 3D doesn't effect compatible software and the OS.

Excluding the GamePad would negate software and the OS.

They already dropped the price by $50 for the Deluxe Set. Apply that $50 savings to the $80 GamePad, and it's a $30 difference, which is basically what you would have bern paying for another controller anyway.

They are already moving the os away from the gamepad. You no longer need the gamepad to navigate the eshop. They just need to fix software settings and password entry. Games are already ignoring the gamepad as a relevant feature.

Iwata only says they will continue to focus on the gamepad to make sure people don't panic that it is going to be abandoned.

It's not difficult to have games launch with out the gamepad. Those features should be coming anyway.

Zombi U and Lego city undercover try to use the gamepad but both games would benefit from also allowing off tv play which they don't. That's a failure of the gamepad to sell itself.

Nintendoland, game and Wario, and Nintendoland have failed to make the gp compelling.

Those games may be incompatible but the games that sold on wii that didn't need motion also don't need the gamepad. Going all out to be the budget value alternative option is the wii u's best hope at not being the biggest home console failure in nintendos history.

I don't really care, I love my gamepad and my off tv play and all 5 of those games. But the smart thing for Nintendo to do is to make it optional and go for that market that kept the wii selling after the wii sports fad wore off.

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ZeroZX_Dev

371. Posted:

@blaisedinsd
You still don't understand, the GamePad is too important to drop or make optional. 3D wasn't that big a deal and wasn't REQUIRED to play, ergo optional. The GamePad is quite the opposite, it's needed for a lot of things and things like the OS are designed with it in mind. I should know, my GamePad is out of commission right now (dead charger), and I kind of need it for alot of things (i.e. browser and netflix). Even then, while the browser is still usable, it's clearly meant for the GamePad. Imagine having to pay $250 for a gimped console with the crucial part missing? How upset would you be if you had to go out buy that part separately, all because you bought the wrong hardware bundle? This combined with even MORE confusion("wait, so the Wii U isn't the tablet?" or " why should I buy something I already have?"), would be even more terrible.

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blaisedinsd

372. Posted:

ZeroZX_Dev wrote:

@blaisedinsd
You still don't understand, the GamePad is too important to drop or make optional. 3D wasn't that big a deal and wasn't REQUIRED to play, ergo optional. The GamePad is quite the opposite, it's needed for a lot of things and things like the OS are designed with it in mind. I should know, my GamePad is out of commission right now (dead charger), and I kind of need it for alot of things (i.e. browser and netflix). Even then, while the browser is still usable, it's clearly meant for the GamePad. Imagine having to pay $250 for a gimped console with the crucial part missing? How upset would you be if you had to go out buy that part separately, all because you bought the wrong hardware bundle? This combined with even MORE confusion("wait, so the Wii U isn't the tablet?" or " why should I buy something I already have?"), would be even more terrible.

So you know the pain. Wouldn't it be better if thing weren't tied to the gamepad for no reason?

Overall their is no reason to stay tethered to the gamepad. It's already a failure and Nintendo knows it. I love mine and what they tried but it's not working with the general public. Just give me off tv play on all my games and I would be happy. One screen is all the wii u needs for most of its important games.

If you want to use your browser still try a keyboard and mouse. They should work I would hope.

With the gamepad clearly being a failure as a gimmic what reason is there they that should focus more on it? When has Nintendo ever focused more on a gimmic successfully? That's just talk. They would be wise to go optional at this point. It's the perfect time with Mario kart 8

Edited on by blaisedinsd

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SCAR392

373. Posted:

@blaisedinsd
At this point it only saves $30 for the consumer to exclude it, but they lose $30 extra and however much they invested in other component. Then they would have to charge $80-100 to sell it to you separately.

That's beside that software and the OS require it.

It makes absolutely no sense to make it optional.

EDIT: You're basically suggesting that they save you $30, in exchange for $80-100.

Edited on by SCAR392

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ZeroZX_Dev

374. Posted:

@blaisedinsd
I see where you're coming from on this, I really do. However, it's too little too late. The Wii U is already out there, this isn't the XBONE, you can't drop something when it's already in place. It be a slap in the face to those who already have it. The most Nintendo can do at this point is make the most of it. Why is the GamePad the problem? You love it, I love it, we all love it (for the most part), so why lose it? No, the GamePad isn't the problem here;it is image that's the problem. The GamePad is actually rather well liked, so why drop it when image is the problem? Hence the question: " why should I buy something I already have?", not everyone knows the Wii U is a new console; admit-tingly, the GamePad focus was kind of the problem.

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blaisedinsd

375. Posted:

SCAR392 wrote:

@blaisedinsd
At this point it only saves $30 for the consumer to exclude it, but they lose $30 extra and however much they invested in other component. Then they would have to charge $80-100 to sell it to you separately.

That's beside that software and the OS require it.

It makes absolutely no sense to make it optional.

EDIT: You're basically suggesting that they save you $30, in exchange for $80-100.

Your math is still fuzzy and makes no sense. If the console sells for $300 right now and a components break down shows the game pad is over 30% of that than they can discount to $200 with out the gamepad and have it play Mario kart 8. They would have a tiny bit better profit margin even. Every single other game we know about on the way is not promising deeply integrated use of the gamepad.

What reason do they have at this point to be tied to it?

If we get maps/inventory and off tv play we continue to receive the gamepads most compelling features. Trying to imagine something else it can do that is amazing is fine, it will help sell gamepads. Games will sell the console, not gimmicks. No reason for the gamepad to weigh down the success these games could otherwise have. Mario kart 8 sells way more with a $200 console.

blaisedinsd

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SCAR392

376. Posted:

My match isn't fuzzy, though. It derives from the original price point and the $50 price drop.

It may cost $80 to make a GamePad, but they've spent money in other places to implement it as they have.

The fact that you're comparing the 2DS to the Wii U, is a clear sign that you're not understanding the differences.

EDIT: They need to keep their platform consistent. Excluding the GamePad would cause more compatibility issues, raise the price of GamePads, and make the features it provides non-existent to people without one. In turn, less people would have one, and no one would go the extra mile and support it as consistently as people expect them to do as it is.

Edited on by SCAR392

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CanisWolfred

377. Posted:

I can't believe I'm saying this, but SCAR is making some sense here. They put a lot of money into the Gamepad, and that money's gonna go down the toilet if they give it up. Hell, even the cost of keeping the surplus Wii U tablets and tablet-included SKUs aren't going to help the matter.

And again, this isn't the 2DS. As has been explained before, outside of one single solitary game, there isn't a 3DS game that won't work on the 2DS, and the 2DS was a necessity to sell Pokemon X/Y to small children. The Tablet provides additional features to most games and is crutial to some others. Yes, lacking the Gamepad when it has been included for years is a lose in value. If you can't see that, then you're thinking like a Fanboy who just wants the games, not as a consumer who wants enough value for their dollar.

Edited on by CanisWolfred

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skywake

378. Posted:

@blaisedinsd
My main disagreement right now is that your argument relies on this idea that removing the GamePad is like the Kinect on the 360, the 3D on the 3DS and Motion Plus. I have already explained why this is not the case but let me again repeat that argument given that it appears to not be sinking in.

Firstly your idea is not like the 2DS because 3D isn't a functional feature. 3D is an optional visual improvement while a second touch screen is a different sort of input and display entirely. I have a Pro Controller and a fairly decent collection of WiiMotes so it's not like I have to use the GamePad and yet I choose to always use it. The couple of times I have used the Pro because the battery died I felt like I was missing out on the nice extras. Wind Waker in particular I started sailing in the wrong directions and missing rooms in dungeons. The only game that comes even remotely close to that for 3D is 3D Land.... and 3D World was far from unplayable without 3D.

Kinect again is something I have no idea why you're sticking with. It's an entirely optional extra that's only required in a small handful of dance and kids games. Nintendo already has a library of Wii U games that are must-haves if you were purchasing the console. To quote you directly:

blaisedinsd wrote:

shingi_70 wrote:

@blaisedinsd
Depends on the game perhaps. I found Mass Effect 3's and few if the Kinect enabled shooters with voice controls to make much more sense than playing looking down at a screen. On the flip side I felt that the Madden and FIFA gamepad controls to be more useful than the voice controls.

Well for me off tv play trumps all that.

If this is the case why still mention it?

As for Motion Plus it is true that it meets most of your "criteria" for being the same as your idea. Motion Plus did "split" the install base and it was required for major games. The major inconvenience for your argument however is that it happened in reverse. Something you think is unimportant but is anything but. For a start Nintendo put every effort into getting the Motion Plus attachment out there, it was basically free with all of the Motion Plus launch games. Then they basically discontinued the original WiiMote and start only selling the ones with Motion Plus.

As for the recent points about it being unlikely that they'll make a game that actually uses it and that Zelda requiring it is just some extension of whatever paranoia all of your opponents are suffering from. Well....

Why shouldn't we assume that they're already a fair amount through the development of a Zelda or similar the requires this? An Okami style weapon anyone? Remember some of the weapons and puzzles in the DS Zeldas? Why wouldn't they already be pushing for that?

Edited on by skywake

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blaisedinsd

379. Posted:

SCAR392 wrote:

My match isn't fuzzy, though. It derives from the original price point and the $50 price drop.

It may cost $80 to make a GamePad, but they've spent money in other places to implement it as they have.

The fact that you're comparing the 2DS to the Wii U, is a clear sign that you're not understanding the differences.

EDIT: They need to keep their platform consistent. Excluding the GamePad would cause more compatibility issues, raise the price of GamePads, and make the features it provides non-existent to people without one. In turn, less people would have one, and no one would go the extra mile and support it as consistently as people expect them to do as it is.

So originally it's $350. The gamepad components are $80. They discounted that to $300. So the gamepad is $30. Is that your match?

That's wrong. Components on the console are $150. Components on the gamepad are $80. Total is $230. There is cost for manufacturing and shipping and marketing and stuff that makes it a small loss at $300. I'll look that up.

Anyway all that matters is oh much it cost them and how much they sell it for. They profit or they lose money. Your math is totally irrelevant to the discussion about how much they make or lose on a hw sale.

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blaisedinsd

380. Posted:

CanisWolfred wrote:

I can't believe I'm saying this, but SCAR is making some sense here. They put a lot of money into the Gamepad, and that money's gonna go down the toilet if they give it up. Hell, even the cost of keeping the surplus Wii U tablets and tablet-included SKUs aren't going to help the matter.

And again, this isn't the 2DS. As has been explained before, outside of one single solitary game, there isn't a 3DS game that won't work on the 2DS, and the 2DS was a necessity to sell Pokemon X/Y to small children. The Tablet provides additional features to most games and is crutial to some others. Yes, lacking the Gamepad when it has been included for years is a lose in value. If you can't see that, then you're thinking like a Fanboy who just wants the games, not as a consumer who wants enough value for their dollar.

The software compatibility is the only difference. It's not a problem actually as all you have to do is tell me there are compatibility issues, release a designation and a database of games as "1 screen". Pushmo crashmo and 3d land all have serious problems in 2d even if they are technically compatible. One screen games sell based on the one screen library. It's not any different than kinect except the gamepad is a more valuable enhancer with off tv play. Miyamoto is still working on a single player gp game. You have a good lineup of games to sell a "1 screen" bundle. It helps define the gamepad as an adon with specific features and that helps your marketing message.

blaisedinsd

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