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Topic: What does Nintendo have to lose by making the gamepad "optional"?

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DefHalan

301. Posted:

@blaisedinsd
With a GamePad-less SKU:
1. People who buy this SKU cannot buy all games and play them, research is required. (Consumer Relations - Negative)
2. Install base is split between those with a GamePad and those without. (Consumer Relations - Negative)
3. Spike in Sales (Short-term Positive). We already know a price cut won’t generate lasting sales. (Long-term Negative)
4. Nintendo is trying to utilize the GamePad more so most Nintendo Games in the future will not be able to be sold to GamePad-less Wii U owners. (Consumer Relations – Negative)
5. 3rd Parties are still not developing for the Wii U because there is not a constant amount of Wii Us being sold. (3rd Party - Negative)
6. 3rd Parties will not spend more money for a system not selling well to patch games that are old news. (Consumer Relations - Negative) Nintendo will not pay 3rd party to patch their games.

With the GamePad included on all SKUs:
1. All Wii U owners can play 100% of games that come out for it(Consumer Relations, 3rd Party, and Game Development – Positive)
2. A single install base for Nintendo to handle, not having to try to serve two masters or three if you include the 3DS or 4 if you count the non-wearable. (Game Development – Positive)
3. Nintendo and other companies can focus on making good games regardless of GamePad utilization. (Game Development, 3rd Party, Consumer Relations – Positive)
4. Nintendo can focus on incressing the single install base which will make 3rd Parties look towards Wii U development more. (Consumer Relations, 3rd Party – Positive)
5. It might take a little longer for Nintendo to make the Wii U profitable. (Short-term – Negative, could turn Long-term if nothing is done but Nintendo is already working on it)

I don’t see the positives of making a GamePad-less SKU

http://dudehugespeaks.tumblr.com/post/44243746261/nickels-dimes-and-quarters
http://www.penny-arcade.com/patv/episode/why-console-specs-dont-matter
http://www.gamasutra.com/view/news/200271/Video_Don_Daglow_on_nextgen_transition_traps_and_treasures.php

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blaisedinsd

302. Posted:

skywake wrote:

blaisedinsd wrote:

I think you fail to realize that the gamepad is basically a pro controller which is basically a classic controller which are basically standard console controllers. What we are talking about is a second screen and a touch screen. These things are basically optional in the vast majority of software since launch and much of the stuff using these things is tacked on. These things are only essential for a couple of games. The vast majority of software is only enhanced by these things.

I must protest yet again. The Classic Controller was just a shell with buttons in it, the Pro Controller has Bluetooth, rumble, motion sensors and a battery. Plus looking at an online retailer who's prices are normally fairly decent the Classic Controller is $20 and the Pro is $40. Compare that to the XBOne controller which has less hardware in it and costs $75 or one of the cheap knock-offs that they're selling for $40. I don't think there's as much margin in it as you think there is especially given the build quality of the thing. Also the estimate for the cost of the GamePad that you've thrown out there is inflated I would argue. The prices people have been charged to replace will not reflect the cost to manufacture as much as the price of a product with lots of stock that's already sold.

If you want to know business reasons I have said this numerous times. Putting myself in the shoes of a potential consumer, I don't see how that small a price cut (maybe $50) is worth the loss of those "enhancements". It's certainly not worth the loss of off-TV play and the map on the second screen in a game like Wind Waker. If we're talking business I'd argue that it's better business to keep the Wii U's strengths. If people don't understand what the strengths are then their best option is to do a better job of communicating that. It's less risky, less controversial and has a bigger payoff than going the lazy "well let's start chopping stuff off" route. If you're asking "but skywake, how do they sell these features they've failed to sell". Well observe:

I was talking about functionally when I said that. The buttons are the same. The classic doesn't have clickable analog sticks. The pro controller actually doesn't have any motion sensing features.

You talk about the business side and you are talking about a consumer who is making a choice between the 2 bundles. This is once again the wrong perspective for the discussion. From a business perspective all those strengths remain because their is still a wii u with a gamepad available.

blaisedinsd

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skywake

303. Posted:

blaisedinsd wrote:

I was talking about functionally when I said that. The buttons are the same. The classic doesn't have clickable analog sticks. The pro controller actually doesn't have any motion sensing features.

If it doesn't have motion sensing, which BTW is only a 50c component, then I'm mistaken. I was under the impression it did. This isn't a big deal but I guess we'll find out either way when DK comes out.

However you're still gravely mistaken in saying that the two are functionally identical. The Classic Controller is basically no more complicated than the N64 controller was and in some ways is probably less so. It had no rumble, no battery it wasn't wireless and it didn't have any motion sensing. Go find a image of the Classic Controller's PCB, it's almost blank. Compare that to the Pro Controller. In terms of cost they're miles apart.

blaisedinsd wrote:

You talk about the business side and you are talking about a consumer who is making a choice between the 2 bundles. This is once again the wrong perspective for the discussion. From a business perspective all those strengths remain because their is still a wii u with a gamepad available.

How is it the wrong perspective? Nintendo make their money at the point of sale so to ignore that entirely is the wrong perspective. Plus you've spent the whole thread arguing that the consumer doesn't want the GamePad. How is that not the same "perspective"? I have a different take on that. I see the end user looking at this SKU you claim will be the saviour and seeing it as a poor option. I see them looking at it and saying "well it's cheaper but it can't play these games, these other games lose 'enhancements' and I can't play remotely". Saying they can still buy the GamePad later isn't a solution, if the GamePad is that great why not include it? Now they have a Pro Controller they didn't want.

Please explain your case without asserting that it's good for their business. First explain how making a SKU that can play less games in the Wii U's library solves the Wii U's main problem. Lack of games. My argument is that the better solution is to stay with what they have and explain to the consumers why they should get it. Rather than trying to backtrack at the same time, splitting the install base, cutting into their library and sending mixed messages.

Edited on by skywake

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blaisedinsd

304. Posted:

It's the wrong perspective because you are artificially choosing between the two skus and judging one inferior and not worth the savings. You are then drawing the conclusion that it's bad for business because of that. I can say the same thing about 2ds, if I feel is not worth the savings does that mean it's a bad idea for Nintendo to offer it?

I have not said this idea would save the console or solve its problems.

My entire point is that it could be good for business.

My assertion is that they can continue to focus on the gamepad and that giving consumers the choice does not prevent that.

Games will sell the system. The system selling games that are on the way do not need a gamepad to be enjoyed. The entire idea is that a lower priced system that plays those game could be attractive to people who don't care for the gamepad no matter how much we think it's the bees knees. At the same time you can make a profit on those hardware sales instead of taking the loss on the current sku. The main money is in selling software and the system without a gamepad is still capable of selling software.

blaisedinsd

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skywake

305. Posted:

blaisedinsd wrote:

It's the wrong perspective because you are artificially choosing between the two skus and judging one inferior and not worth the savings. You are then drawing the conclusion that it's bad for business because of that. I can say the same thing about 2ds, if I feel is not worth the savings does that mean it's a bad idea for Nintendo to offer it?

And? You're doing the same. You're putting yourself in the consumer's shoes and assuming that they'll run to the stores to get this SKU despite the fact that most of the major titles won't work as well without the GamePad. I don't think consumers are that stupid and therefore I don't think it'll be successful enough to be worth the problems it would create

As for the 2DS that's entirely different. For a start I can see why someone might want the 2DS, while it's not for me I wouldn't say that it's a lower value product. You can do the same things on a 2DS and play all of the same games as you can on a 3DS XL. The reason I have an XL is because I like the larger screen, the clamshell design and the shape of it is easier to carry around for streepass than the 2DS would be. If however I was wanting to get a cheap console for my niece then I'd probably go for the 2DS. The 3D is just an "and also"

The Wii U without the GamePad is an entirely different thing, the GamePad is central to not just what the Wii U is but also what the Wii U does. You're literally making it so that that particular SKU can no-longer play some of the defining games of the console or use one of its defining features. You're doing this on a console that's already struggling to sell mostly because of a lack of compelling software. Not for a ~40% price drop either, for something more like a 10-20% price drop. Then you're saying that developers should put extra effort into making sure that the Games work without the GamePad and patch games that are already out.

It doesn't make sense.

Edited on by skywake

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blaisedinsd

306. Posted:

DefHalan wrote:

@blaisedinsd
With a GamePad-less SKU:
1. People who buy this SKU cannot buy all games and play them, research is required. (Consumer Relations - Negative)
2. Install base is split between those with a GamePad and those without. (Consumer Relations - Negative)
3. Spike in Sales (Short-term Positive). We already know a price cut won’t generate lasting sales. (Long-term Negative)
4. Nintendo is trying to utilize the GamePad more so most Nintendo Games in the future will not be able to be sold to GamePad-less Wii U owners. (Consumer Relations – Negative)
5. 3rd Parties are still not developing for the Wii U because there is not a constant amount of Wii Us being sold. (3rd Party - Negative)
6. 3rd Parties will not spend more money for a system not selling well to patch games that are old news. (Consumer Relations - Negative) Nintendo will not pay 3rd party to patch their games.

With the GamePad included on all SKUs:
1. All Wii U owners can play 100% of games that come out for it(Consumer Relations, 3rd Party, and Game Development – Positive)
2. A single install base for Nintendo to handle, not having to try to serve two masters or three if you include the 3DS or 4 if you count the non-wearable. (Game Development – Positive)
3. Nintendo and other companies can focus on making good games regardless of GamePad utilization. (Game Development, 3rd Party, Consumer Relations – Positive)
4. Nintendo can focus on incressing the single install base which will make 3rd Parties look towards Wii U development more. (Consumer Relations, 3rd Party – Positive)
5. It might take a little longer for Nintendo to make the Wii U profitable. (Short-term – Negative, could turn Long-term if nothing is done but Nintendo is already working on it)

I don’t see the positives of making a GamePad-less SKU

Basically I just do not agree with this list. I was trying to figure out why we disagree and I think much of it has to do with how Nintendo did it. WIth that in mind I will present a hypothetical announcement and we can discuss the fallout of it and how this list would apply or not.

Wii U continues to struggle and Tropical Freeze doesn't help as much as hoped. Either Mario Kart 8 is delayed and this happens at E3 or they announce this in a Nintendo Direct shortly before its launch.

Nintendo Network ID announcement
They say the NNID allows a new relationship with their customer. Purchases will now be tied to your account instead of the console and they can offer you rewards and discounts based on the types of games you enjoy. They apologize for the mistake they made tying it to HW in the past and how NNID will allow a better relationship across console generations. They also talk about how they care about families and will have NNID for children as well. They explain they envision entire families having NNID and they will charge 50 cents to verify minors and associate them as a family. This will allow them to protect minors online and develop their online services. Adults get swapnote back on 3DS, kids don't unless granted parental permission. One NNID per 3DS and several allowed on Wii U. The NNID will be the standard going forward on all future Nintendo consoles. VC is planned for future consoles and they explain technical hurdles make VC difficult and they apologize for not getting more VC content out. Upgrade pricing will apply for Wii to 3DS just like on Wii U and there will be upgrade fees each console generation because they need to fund the resources to bring these games to new platforms. They will however not charge for WII U and 3DS shared content, based on availability you have crossbuy basically for VC. The NNID Family concept lets you share VC content with a minor associated with your Parental ID by paying the upgrade pricing fee introduced on Wii U. Full games will not be able to be shared digitally among families but they can be transferred among the family once per year. This will work on all future console but upgrade pricing may change in the future. To demonstrate their commitment to VC all ambassador games are released on Wii U and to celebrate Mario Kart 8 release the first 5 Mario Karts are released on VC. The first GBA and the first Gamecube game on VC. They talk about playing together and Mario Kart great online and give some staggering numbers of online usage of the series and announce double dash and ds will support online play on VC. They announce SSB Melee will release in November a week before the Wii U Smash Bros. and they will work to do this kind of thing in the future as well.

They continue to talk of Wii U being a family console as well and how Mario Kart is for the whole family and how the gamepad will allow up to 5 players for the first time ever. They then talk about how the Wii U is not only for families, its for everyone. The Wii U with its gamepad was designed for families sharing a television in a common room but the Wii U has plenty to offer everyone and to that end they are announcing the Wii U one screen. This is intended for other use cases where a television is not shared suchs as a second Wii U in a bedroom or a kid going off to college. Games, such as Mario Kart, will be labelled as one screen enabled going forward if they support the one screen experience. Here all these great one screen compatible games available now and more great one screen games coming soon. Many games are being added to one screen support including and you can check if a game is one screen capable on your Wii U, in your Nintendo ios app, or on this website www... An initiative is launched for requesting a game be patched for one screen where demand will trigger a kickstart that if successfull will get the game patched. The one screen Wii U package will come with an 8GB console, a digital copy of MK8, and a procontroller and sell for $229.99. They talk about some ideas for functionallity of a household having WIi U is several rooms with a single gamepad per house as well. Kart will also have support for multiple gamepads and they will retail for $79.99.

We also know there was much debate over what was the best controller for Mario Kart Wii. Mario Kart 8 will support the Wii Wheel, the nunchuck, the procontroller, the classic controller, and we are releasing the gee-cee-wii that will allow you to plug in any gamecube controller in to your Wii U through USB and be compatible with new Smash bros too. It cost's $20.

And we saved the best for last. Here is the amazing new Wii U game coming soon that uses the gamepad in these amaing new ways that we hope will make everyone want to buy a Wii U.

I am not predicting all of that would happen, but its just an idea of how it could be done. If this was announced would all those negative reactions still be applicable?

blaisedinsd

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DefHalan

307. Posted:

@blaisedinsd
A lot of that had nothing to do with the topic. All the Negative reactions of losing dual screen console gaming still apply. Nintendo annouces a new SKU and pushes no GamePad that hard and announces a new GamePad required game? That is a terrible idea. When you create a new HardwareBundle you want everything to push that for a small aamount of time. Pokemon X &Y announced that a lot of the game would only be in 2D then Nintendo announced the 2DS, helping push the 2DS. It would be like trying to sell a 2DS by showing off how great 3D is in Pushmo. Why would people want the GamePad-less SKU knowing it won't be supported in the future? Why would Nintendo make a GamePad required game if people can just "vote" to have it reworked to work with the Pro Controller. You have so many ideas that work against each other. It would make Nintendo look like a very weak company that is on its last leg, Nintendo is far from that.

Edited on by DefHalan

http://dudehugespeaks.tumblr.com/post/44243746261/nickels-dimes-and-quarters
http://www.penny-arcade.com/patv/episode/why-console-specs-dont-matter
http://www.gamasutra.com/view/news/200271/Video_Don_Daglow_on_nextgen_transition_traps_and_treasures.php

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Howard24U

308. Posted:

DefHalan wrote:

@blaisedinsd
With a GamePad-less SKU:
1. People who buy this SKU cannot buy all games and play them, research is required. (Consumer Relations - Negative)
2. Install base is split between those with a GamePad and those without. (Consumer Relations - Negative)
3. Spike in Sales (Short-term Positive). We already know a price cut won’t generate lasting sales. (Long-term Negative)
4. Nintendo is trying to utilize the GamePad more so most Nintendo Games in the future will not be able to be sold to GamePad-less Wii U owners. (Consumer Relations – Negative)
5. 3rd Parties are still not developing for the Wii U because there is not a constant amount of Wii Us being sold. (3rd Party - Negative)
6. 3rd Parties will not spend more money for a system not selling well to patch games that are old news. (Consumer Relations - Negative) Nintendo will not pay 3rd party to patch their games.

With the GamePad included on all SKUs:
1. All Wii U owners can play 100% of games that come out for it(Consumer Relations, 3rd Party, and Game Development – Positive)
2. A single install base for Nintendo to handle, not having to try to serve two masters or three if you include the 3DS or 4 if you count the non-wearable. (Game Development – Positive)
3. Nintendo and other companies can focus on making good games regardless of GamePad utilization. (Game Development, 3rd Party, Consumer Relations – Positive)
4. Nintendo can focus on incressing the single install base which will make 3rd Parties look towards Wii U development more. (Consumer Relations, 3rd Party – Positive)
5. It might take a little longer for Nintendo to make the Wii U profitable. (Short-term – Negative, could turn Long-term if nothing is done but Nintendo is already working on it)

I don’t see the positives of making a GamePad-less SKU

As a proponent of a Gamepad-less bundle I figured I would comment on your list...

Without Gamepad:
1. This is no different than having games that require the kinect, or the ps move, or wii games that required the Wii Motion Plus (or even Nintendoland for instance, I don't have 3 Wii motion pluses, so when I try and play a number of the multiplayer games with friends, we can't. But that's my problem. If I wanted to play those games, I could go spend another $100 for 2 more Wii motion+ controllers, but for me, it's not worth it). In all of these instances, if you don't have the additional controller/device, you can't play certain games. And really, the total number of games that are really unplayable without the gamepad is extremely small. Maybe there's like 2 games that couldn't function without it. Nintendoland is one.
2. You're just stating a fact, you're not actually using it to make an argument though...
3. Assuming this wouldn't drive longer term sales is your personal speculation. Many would argue the current price drop still didn't bring enough price difference between the Wii U and the much more powerful PS4. Offering a basic Gamepad-less sku at $179.99 brings a huge price benefit to the Wii U.
4. DKTF would lead me to believe otherwise here. Otherwise refer to comment #1.
5. Completely irrelevant to this discussion. Particularly since the introduction of a gamepad-less sku would be offered specifically to help provide steady sales.
6. If the new sku increased sales it would be in a 3rd parties financial interest to patch a game to allow for pro controller support. Otherwise, they just wouldn't be able to sell them to these new sku owners. There are numerous PC games that require special GPU's. As with everything in life, if you choose to purchase a cheaper product, you won't be able to do things that the more expensive one does. Not every HDTV has wifi, apps, 3d, etc, and if you purchase the cheaper product without these features, then yes, there will be things that you can't do.

With Gamepad:
1. This is a correct statement and would be a positive, yes.
2. I highly doubt there would be incremental development costs to not have Gamepad features in a game.
3. I feel like this comment should actually be on your first list, verbatim.
4. If anything I think 3rd parties are steered away from porting or developing games to the Wii U BECAUSE of the Gamepad.
5. I agree, but as it stands, we don't know if they can make the Wii U profitable at all.

Edited on by Howard24U

Howard24U

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DefHalan

309. Posted:

@Howard24U
Without GamePad
1. The difference is that the Kinect, PS Move, and Motion Plus were released after a secure install base was achieved. There are more that two games that couldn't be played or wouldn't give the same experience.
2. A Split install base is bad for a console this early in.
3. A $179 SKU is way lower than is currently possible. If a GamePad SKU was released we would be looking at $250 or $230. From the numbers we have it shows that a price drop is not enough to make the system successful. The 3DS had a price drop along with some killer games released at the same time.
4. DKTF has been in development for a long time, recently Nintendo stated how they were going to focus on the GamePad more.
5. Not irrelevant, it is a current problem that the new SKU would not help but possibly make worst.
6. How often do you buy a year-old game new? How long do Call of Duty or Assassin's Creed games last on the Market? By the time the new SKU is introduced 3rd Parties are focused on newer games not games already on the Market. What would help ZombiU become a success? A patch released that fixes the problems now, after all the reviews are out and people's opinions are set, or with a sequel?

With the GamePad.
1. We agree.
2. Not sure what you mean. With everyone having a GamePad Nintendo doesn't need to satisfy people that have the GamePad and people that don't. They can focus on other things as well as the GamePad.
3. If there were two different SKUs and two install bases then companies would have to worry about cutting a group out of their target. (If a company makes a GamePad game they can't sell it to GamePad-less people)
4. The evidence shows architecture of the hardware and install base to be the problem, not the GamePad.
5. Correct but they don't want to cut off their nose in spite of their face (damage relations with customer and threaten their next system's success to make the Wii U profitable) Nintendo isn't in so much trouble that the Wii U has to be a success or they shut down. The 3DS and savings from the Wii will keep them alive for the next round

http://dudehugespeaks.tumblr.com/post/44243746261/nickels-dimes-and-quarters
http://www.penny-arcade.com/patv/episode/why-console-specs-dont-matter
http://www.gamasutra.com/view/news/200271/Video_Don_Daglow_on_nextgen_transition_traps_and_treasures.php

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blaisedinsd

310. Posted:

Without gamepad
1. It is the same thing only in reverse. See my example of how Nintendo could do this. They call this new the Wii U one screen and sell the idea as the gamepad sku is geared toward families and being in a common room and Wii U one screen is targeted toward individuals and having the console in a bedroom. The "one screen enabled" games are now in the same category as like a kinect sports that can only be played with kinect. It's the revers because one screen games can be played with or with out the add on. The one screen library of games is just like the kinect a library of games.

The entire wii u library sells the gamepad. The sub library of games is what sells the lower end sku.

I don't see how this would be a bad move or how the split install base is a negative.

3. The no gamepad sku is a new pillar of wii u. It will support a sub-library of games. The success of this sku is independent of the gamepad install base.
They simply say this is our great one screen line up of games. Go with the cheaper sku if those games are enticing enough.

Edited on by blaisedinsd

blaisedinsd

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blaisedinsd

311. Posted:

DefHalan wrote:

@blaisedinsd
A lot of that had nothing to do with the topic. All the Negative reactions of losing dual screen console gaming still apply. Nintendo annouces a new SKU and pushes no GamePad that hard and announces a new GamePad required game? That is a terrible idea. When you create a new HardwareBundle you want everything to push that for a small aamount of time. Pokemon X &Y announced that a lot of the game would only be in 2D then Nintendo announced the 2DS, helping push the 2DS. It would be like trying to sell a 2DS by showing off how great 3D is in Pushmo. Why would people want the GamePad-less SKU knowing it won't be supported in the future? Why would Nintendo make a GamePad required game if people can just "vote" to have it reworked to work with the Pro Controller. You have so many ideas that work against each other. It would make Nintendo look like a very weak company that is on its last leg, Nintendo is far from that.

I only added all that extra stuff for people like you that think this type of thing would create panic. It a tactic, announce a bunch of other huge news and casually toss this in with it. The huge news takes much of the focus away from what you fear is cause for panic.

blaisedinsd

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skywake

312. Posted:

@blaisedinsd
Firstly, most of that had absolutely nothing to do with your thread so I'm just going to ignore it. Ambassador programs and so on I would have thought would be entirely unnecessary in your argument given your repeated statements that the current install base wouldn't be ticked off. Apparently you now agree with that because you think it's something that would need to be managed. So that's something, an agreement that it would do damage.

Onto your bundle idea. For a start we need to consider what's selling so far and what prices are set. Because I'm not as familiar with US pricing I'll refer to Australian pricing here. The Wii U launched here at $420AU and $350AU and the most popular SKU was by far the premium bundle with Nintendo Land. Period. Right now there are two SKUs you can get readily, the Premium bundle with New SMB + Luigi at $430 and the basic bundle with Skylanders at $299. Again the Premium bundle is the more popular one. With the Wii they actually made a Mario Kart bundle and still sell it. It's one of their more popular SKUs and is still sold at $150AU. So remember all this.

If I was going to predict what Nintendo would do I'd say that given the above it's fairly obvious. They've said they'll talk about new single player games that make heavy use of the GamePad and so they'll do exactly that. Their Mario Kart push could be nothing but just Mario Kart, at most it'll be a bundle with Mario Kart with a RRP the same as the basic bundle is now. GamePad included. For $250US with Mario Kart I'd argue it's an easier sell than $230US with Mario Kart but without a GamePad. The added benefit of not having to do all of the things you ranted about just then in an attempt to solve the problems we have talked about and you have refused to acknowledge until now.

The only good idea you had I would say was the GameCube controller revival. the difference is I don't think it'll be USB or even would be USB. USB would be daft, what is this 1996? Same thing but either tied to a WiiMote or bluetooth. I doubt it will happen but it would be nice if it did.

@Howard24U
1. It is different. The big Motion Plus games came bundled with Motion Plus and the addition of Motion Plus didn't make Super Mario Galaxy less playable. Kinect was not required in any of the major games. With the GamePad you lose the ability to play Rayman Legends, Pikmin 3, Nintendo Land and 3D World to their full extent.
2. $180 is not going to happen with this theoretical SKU. It just doesn't add up.
3. Many would argue? Assuming that it will drive long term sales is your personal speculation.
4. DKTF doesn't say anything other than it being a traditional 2D platformer. How many Wii games didn't use motion controls?
5. Again, you're basing this on what? Is this anything other than your opinion?

6. For a start the PC comparison is odd. PCs are by their nature custom and developers are forced to make the game work on as broad a platform as possible. I don't know of any game that requires a special GPU to run. If a developer made a game that only ran on NVidia hardware then there would be an uproar and the game would fail to sell. Yes TVs have extras but the extras on the TV are not what you buy a TV for. You buy a TV so it can display various inputs. If you got a Sony TV and it refused to display signals from non-Sony devices then you'd immediately take it back.

The Wii U exists to play Wii U games. It's one and only job is to find its way under your TV and then make it easy for you to buy and play Wii U games. Removing the GamePad makes it harder to sell games. What is better about the next Rayman on the Wii U vs the other consoles if there is no GamePad? Why would someone without the GamePad spend $130US to play the cool new first party title that requires the GamePad? Frankly if $180 is the price then they'd be better off making a loss and including the GamePad than they would removing it. There are more gains to be had if everyone has the GamePad there and there are problems caused when it's not there.

Edited on by skywake

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blaisedinsd

313. Posted:

Well I don't think it would do damage. I only presented it that way because I am in a discussion with people who think it would cause panic. I gues I shouldn't have included that stuff. That's all off topic and a wast of time to discuss further.

Your predictions I am sure are much more likely with the bundles you are suggesting they may release.

The reason I made the thread is not a prediction, I am just asking if the concept makes good business sense or not. I think it makes perfect sense the same as kinect does. I don't thin that being in reverse makes it any different. One sku plays the entire library and the other sku play a sub-library. I don't see that as a problem and I don't see a segment of people that would have a reason to complain. The idea causes panic to some of you, but if this is announced in a way as hypothetically proposed do you think you would actually panic?

blaisedinsd

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blaisedinsd

314. Posted:

I don't think this made sense as something to do at launch.

I think it makes sense now, after seeing the effect the compelling features have made and the way the console has underperformed and the direction these major games have gone in not using the gamepad as an integral part of the game experience. It makes sense this year with these games coming out as a strategy to broaden the appeal of the console and create more opportunities for these important games to succeed.

Really this possible panic is literally the only reason I see as a potential negative at this point. I think that is a good direction to take the topic. Is it a reason to actually panic or would a panic reaction be irrational. If it's an irrational panic than I think you can try to manage it with some of the strategies I sort of proposed in how I proposed they announce it.

Edited on by blaisedinsd

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DefHalan

315. Posted:

blaisedinsd wrote:

I don't think this made sense as something to do at launch.

I think it makes sense now, after seeing the effect the compelling features have made and the way the console has underperformed and the direction these major games have gone in not using the gamepad as an integral part of the game experience. It makes sense this year with these games coming out as a strategy to broaden the appeal of the console and create more opportunities for these important games to succeed.

Really this possible panic is literally the only reason I see as a potential negative at this point. I think that is a good direction to take the topic. Is it a reason to actually panic or would a panic reaction be irrational. If it's an irrational panic than I think you can try to manage it with some of the strategies I sort of proposed in how I proposed they announce it.

Is it reasonable to panic at Nintendo not supporting the Hardware they sell you? Yes. When I say Hardware I mean the controller. Either way one of these two SKUs are not going to get support in a direct way. With 1 SKU all games support it. If Nintendo tried to support both SKUs with all their games then the GamePad would become useless or no games would come out for the GamePad-less SKU.

Edited on by DefHalan

http://dudehugespeaks.tumblr.com/post/44243746261/nickels-dimes-and-quarters
http://www.penny-arcade.com/patv/episode/why-console-specs-dont-matter
http://www.gamasutra.com/view/news/200271/Video_Don_Daglow_on_nextgen_transition_traps_and_treasures.php

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blaisedinsd

316. Posted:

Is it reasonable to panic at Nintendo not supporting the Hardware they sell you? Yes. When I say Hardware I mean the controller. Either way one of these two SKUs are not going to get support in a direct way. With 1 SKU all games support it. If Nintendo tried to support both SKUs with all their games then the GamePad would become useless.

I feel if this happened a year ago this sort of panic would have some merit. At this point I feel we have seen the most compelling usage of the gamepad that the gamepad is capable of. What we have seen so far are the ideas that made them think the gamepad was a great idea. What comes next are the things they thought of later. 3rd party support is not coming because the install base is small and the games don't sell on the console. We have huge games coming where the gamepad is irrelevant to their appeal.

Heck, conspiracy theory to support my prediction: iwata was speaking of this focus on the gamepad strategy basically as a pre-emptive strike to help manage the potential for this type of panic. They can further manage by marketing it as a family vs individual experience, giving some nice fan service to generate good vibes at the same time, focusing on how great these new games are, and announcing some great new gamepad game or experience at the same time.

Anyway, are you still not able to admit the idea does make some sense on a business level? Can you agree the fear of loss of support for the gamepad at this point is a bit irrational? The big games don't need it, even if they don't do it you still have the same amount of reason to made about gamepad support. In reality the level of support at stake is whether or not to go ahead with Nintendoland 2.

Edited on by blaisedinsd

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skywake

317. Posted:

@blaisedinsd
Why did you feel the need to paint your opponents in that sort of way? The most inflammatory thing that I've said toward you is that I believe that this idea is a bad idea that doesn't make sense and won't happen. For saying this everyone who disagrees is somehow a lose cannon fearful that a SKU of a game console will induce some sort of irrational mass panic amongst existing Wii U owners. That's not what I was saying at all.

All I said was that I don't believe it would sell well because it's not as good a value. That a software bundle or price drop in general is easier and would likely be more effective. That ontop of that it would cause problems with their messaging. Something every armchair analyst and his dog seems to think is their main problem. Ontop of that it would mean that a particular type of new consumer would have access to a smaller library of games out of the box. Something that again doesn't help when their main problem is a lack of games. Even more than that, we both now agree that it doesn't seem consistent with what Nintendo has said and what they're likely to do.

If that's me being part of an irrational panic then by all means call it that. However I think I'm just being a little bit more realistic about what would actually help, what wouldn't, what seems likely and what seems improbable. I don't think your SKU will happen and I think that it's a good thing if it doesn't.

Edited on by skywake

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blaisedinsd

318. Posted:

skywake wrote:

@blaisedinsd
Why did you feel the need to paint your opponents in that sort of way? The most inflammatory thing that I've said toward you is that I believe that this idea is a bad idea that doesn't make sense and won't happen. For saying this everyone who disagrees is somehow a lose cannon fearful that a SKU of a game console will induce some sort of irrational mass panic amongst existing Wii U owners. That's not what I was saying at all.

All I said was that I don't believe it would sell well because it's not as good a value. That a software bundle or price drop in general is easier and would likely be more effective. That ontop of that it would cause problems with their messaging. Something every armchair analyst and his dog seems to think is their main problem. Ontop of that it would mean that a particular type of new consumer would have access to a smaller library of games out of the box. Something that again doesn't help when their main problem is a lack of games. Even more than that, we both now agree that it doesn't seem consistent with what Nintendo has said and what they're likely to do.

If that's me being part of an irrational panic then by all means call it that. However I think I'm just being a little bit more realistic about what would actually help, what wouldn't, what seems likely and what seems improbable. I don't think your SKU will happen and I think that it's a good thing if it doesn't.

Good post. I did not mean it in a pejorative manner, I just meant to discuss nature of the fear.

Sure it might be a new message, but if it's sold as a way to broaden the appeal of the console would it really be that upsetting of a change in their messaging?

Whether or not you see the value in providing access to this this sub- library of games that provide an alternate experience is a different discussion I'm not interested in. Personally I don't see the value either , but I feel some people might because I know plenty of people don't specifically care for the gamepad or the experience it provides. That's why when this panic reaction is the only reason it might not be a good strategy I think it is worth it to discuss how well founded that panic actually is.

It's fine if you disagree this one screen console bundle would be attractive to enough people to make it worth doing, at this point I'm only asking if the fear of losing gamepad support is a well founded reason for the move to upset customers.

I do see the value in providing this one screen experience as an option to current owners through software updates even if the sku never happens.

Edited on by blaisedinsd

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Howard24U

319. Posted:

skywake wrote:

@Howard24U
2. $180 is not going to happen with this theoretical SKU. It just doesn't add up.
3. Many would argue? Assuming that it will drive long term sales is your personal speculation.
4. DKTF doesn't say anything other than it being a traditional 2D platformer. How many Wii games didn't use motion controls?
5. Again, you're basing this on what? Is this anything other than your opinion?

2. $179.99 is well within range. The basic bundle sells for $250 or less here in the US. Gamestop, our largest dedicated game retailer sells it for $250, Amazon is around $240. I know you and I have discussed this before, but the pro controller in the US sells for $45-$50, and the Gamepad (directly from Nintendo only) sells for $140. You can argue that there's more profit margin in the Gamepad, which I'm sure there is, but that still easily leaves room for a $60-$70 Wii U price drop if you replace the Gamepad with a pro controller. You have to remember that if Walmart can sell the pro controller for $45, that means that manufacturing cost (parts + labor) + Cost to ship controllers to US stores + Nintendo Profit + Walmart Profit = $45, This means that Nintendo must be able to manufacture these controllers pretty cheaply... maybe for $25 or so.

3. Many, as in the millions of people that are buying the PS4 and ignoring the Wii U. It all comes down to price in the end. Clearly consumers don't feel the console (for whatever reasons) is worth the price.

4. From the early reviews I've read, the Gamepad screen is actually off for DKTF.

5. @defhalan's original comment was that 3rd parties aren't developing for the U because there aren't steady sales. My comment was that this really has nothing to do with the argument of whether to remove a gamepad from a future SKU. Additionally, the only reason that Nintendo WOULD release a pro controller SKU would be to try and bring in steady sales. They certainly wouldn't offer it to stifle sales.

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skywake

320. Posted:

@blaisedinsd
People who got the GamePad would be left with a piece of hardware that's effectively useless if support was dropped. If it was still pushed and there was this GamePad-less SKU then those people would feel like they'd been had. I think it's pretty clear how that's a confused message. I'm not suggesting fear or panic, I'm saying that I don't think Nintendo can maintain two different images for the Wii U. It's hard enough explaining what the Wii U is to the market without having to also explain that it's now two things.

As for your anecdotal evidence of people who don't care about the GamePad. I question the validity of that, I knew of plenty of people who didn't care about a lot of things that ended up being indisputably net-positive features. Often people who aren't invested in a platform try to find a reason why they're not into it. As I've said before I could say that I'm not at all interested some of the features of the XBOne and PS4 but that doesn't mean that the removal of those features would mean I get up and buy it.

The one and only reason someone doesn't buy a console is price and games. If you feel that the Wii U needs those things then my argument would be that it can do them without removing the GamePad.

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