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Topic: What does Nintendo have to lose by making the gamepad "optional"?

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SCAR392

21. Posted:

You're only paying $30 for the GamePad, since they did a price drop.

You have nothing to lose by having the GamePad, and much more to gain.

$300 is the bare minimum, which is why they can't sell the Basic SKU, anymore.

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SCAR392

22. Posted:

Also, what about those few people that will probably think the GamePad can be used by itself? It's just more confusion waiting to happen.

You can't use the Wii U without the GamePad. You can't use the GamePad, without a Wii U.

The GamePad isn't going anywhere.

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DefHalan

23. Posted:

What is the problem with the GamePad that would make Nintendo have it be optional? Devs don't have a problem using it, just finding unique ways to use it. Customers don't have a problem using it, just don't see the point when 3rd parties are using it in unique ways. By making it optional, like the Sony Move stuff is optional, it cuts your install base into two camps, those with GamePads and those without. 100% of people with GamePads can play games that don't require GamePads. 0% of people without GamePads can play games that require the GamePad. That would mean no one would develop games for the GamePad. This is not what Nintendo is trying to do. Devs had a hard time using the Wii-remotes in games but they had time to learn. Devs need time to learn. Expensive AAA titles can't afford to learn but indies can because A) they need that thing that makes them standout and B) have smaller budgets and more flexible engines. Having the GamePad with every Wii U doesn't mean every game has to use its unique features but it gives devs a reason to work with it. The only benefit there is to making the GamePad optional, and destroying the idea of dual screen gaming at home, is that Nintendo might sell a few extra Wii Us from some price cut. We have already seen a price cut doesn't matter too much to people.

http://dudehugespeaks.tumblr.com/post/44243746261/nickels-dimes-and-quarters
http://www.penny-arcade.com/patv/episode/why-console-specs-dont-matter
http://www.gamasutra.com/view/news/200271/Video_Don_Daglow_on_nextgen_transition_traps_and_treasures.php

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shingi_70

24. Posted:

DefHalan wrote:

What is the problem with the GamePad that would make Nintendo have it be optional? Devs don't have a problem using it, just finding unique ways to use it. Customers don't have a problem using it, just don't see the point when 3rd parties are using it in unique ways. By making it optional, like the Sony Move stuff is optional, it cuts your install base into two camps, those with GamePads and those without. 100% of people with GamePads can play games that don't require GamePads. 0% of people without GamePads can play games that require the GamePad. That would mean no one would develop games for the GamePad. This is not what Nintendo is trying to do. Devs had a hard time using the Wii-remotes in games but they had time to learn. Devs need time to learn. Expensive AAA titles can't afford to learn but indies can because A) they need that thing that makes them standout and B) have smaller budgets and more flexible engines. Having the GamePad with every Wii U doesn't mean every game has to use its unique features but it gives devs a reason to work with it. The only benefit there is to making the GamePad optional, and destroying the idea of dual screen gaming at home, is that Nintendo might sell a few extra Wii Us from some price cut. We have already seen a price cut doesn't matter too much to people.

The Market has had around 18 months and people just don't find the Gamepad compelling at all. So people say that it should be taken out to cut the price of the Wii U down even further. As far as AAA's not taking advantage of the gamepad I doubt that's such a big deal when Nintendo themselves can't justify why it'd such a big deal. Its pretty amazing when they take out the tingle Tuner which is kind if made for the gamepad for the Miiverse features.

As far as Indies I would be inclined to agree, until we see these games coming to other platfoms and building something unique for the gamepad just doesn't seem worth it.

For the record I feel taking away the gamepad is a terrible idea. Doing that means you now have to redesign buts of the OS, and not only that you break compatibility with Games that use the gamepad, and the upcoming g NFC based games. In the end removing the gamepad makes even more confusion and leaves Nintendo with a product comparable to last gens offerings with no radical game changer.

That said I feel the for all what the gamepad improves its mostly on the non game usability side like having a web browser or overall messing around with the user interface. It reminds me of Kinect that way .

WAT!

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blaisedinsd

25. Posted:

Donalp15 wrote:

You cannot compare dropping the 3D to dropping the gamepad. One is an visual effect that may not be suitable physically for all people, and one is a controller for the system.
If you drop the gamepad, you will not appease all the people who say the third party is bad or that there are not enough games. It also throws away the potential the controller has. Zombiu and Nintendo land made use of the pad beautifully, and there is no reason more games cannot be made like these. Also dropping the controller screws any person you has one, as developers will look the fanbase, realize the majority of people do not have one, and all games from this point forward will ignore it, likely even the off TV features.
If you make it optional it will fare the same, no one wants to buy an accessory to play a game, and since it is so expensive and so it will be just as if they dumped it.

Basically, they need more games to make good use of the gamepad besides off TV play, dropping it entirely is a serious amount of wasted potential.

I disagree. 3D is a feature of the 3DS just as the gamepad is a feature of the Wii U. With out that feature the 3DS works just fine, like when you turn off the slider, and Nintendo released cheaper hardware for those who don't see the value of that feature. The majority of Wii U games work just fine without the gamepad, just like when I play them now with out the gamepad, so Nintendo can release cheaper hardware for those who don't see the value of the feauture.

And, once again, I am in no way talking about dropping the gamepad. Enabling alternate control methods on some system menu stuff and releasing a gimped bundle that doesn't have a gamepad is not killing the gamepad anymore than the 2DS is killing 3D on handhelds.

Yes those games use the gamepad beautifully, but I don't think Ubisoft is going to try to duplicate the "success" of Zombi U so it is largely up to Nintendo to make those games and they don't seem to be doing that. Lego City I personally feel would benefit more from Off TV play than it does from it's gamepad features, at least give us the option. 3D world is a great game and while they did put some required gamepad levels in there I don't think those features are what make that game great. I don't need them to shoehorn the gamepad in to Mk8 or Smash or whatever. I am a huge Nintendoland fan, I would like more games like that as well too, but I don't see the continuous requirement of the gamepad as something that will determine that. I also don't think Off-TV play is something that would ever be dropped....heck it works for virtual Wii so I doubt there is anyway it is too much trouble to implement, its basically a line of code that say "Hey Wii U, display the same screen on both displays" if you want.

Going forward we have an install base of 6 million Wii U owners. If you assume the worst, say 75% of new buyers opt for no-gamepad, how long do you think it would take for that base to become the majority? At least 1.5 years I would guess and by that point you are really heading toward the tale end of the consoles life. If you release a game with killer gamepad features to a user base that is maybe 50-50 gamepad users do you think it sells? I think those with a game-pad are more likely to pick it up just because it has those features. Motion plus was never required but we still got Skyward Sword on the Wii.

But in all reality, even if your predictions are 100% spot on what you are painting a picture of is the gamepad as a complete failure that is killing the console that you want them to hang on to as a requirement simply because you fear you may not some future game that has great gamepad features.

I don't see it that way. I see the gamepad as a great feature for some people and others who could care less or are even annoyed by it. I think you already have 6 million gamepads sold and if you don't require it I don't think it suddenly disappears. That segment of people that it's a great feature for will still think its a great feature. Those who don't like it may go for the console while they didn't before. If you offer a bundle for $50 less that includes a piece of hardware you are selling for $100 I don't think you are suddenly not going to sell gamepads. I mean the pricing is all flexible, but you can make it so that the gamepad is still your main product. I don't think giving people the option is the "final nail in the coffin" or "the dumping of the gamepad" and if you are arguing that it is I think you are making a better argument that the gamepad is a total failure that should have been dropped 8 months ago than you are saying they need to require it and sell it harder.

blaisedinsd

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blaisedinsd

26. Posted:

SCAR392 wrote:

You're only paying $30 for the GamePad, since they did a price drop.

You have nothing to lose by having the GamePad, and much more to gain.

$300 is the bare minimum, which is why they can't sell the Basic SKU, anymore.

Right, but I read it costs them $70 to produce it. They take a small loss on the $300 bundle, lets say they lose $1.

So they can release a bundle for $250 with no gamepad that will cost them $231 to produce and they will make $19 profit instead.

Or they can sell for $231 and brake even, but they probably sell more units at that price too.

Pricing is flexible.

blaisedinsd

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SCAR392

27. Posted:

@shingi_70
So Xbox One and PS4 are comparable to last gen consoles, because they don't have a "radical game changer". Gotcha.

People were opposed to the GamePad when it was announced. From what I can tell, those same people still don't see the appeal and/or value. Things haven't changed at all, so I don't get why anyone would think that they will.
If you don't like the GamePad, then don't buy a Wii U. It's not that difficult.

http://www.amazon.com/Xbox-One-Console/dp/B00CMQTVUA
http://www.amazon.com/PlayStation-4-Console/dp/B00BGA9WK2/ref...

No hard feelings. I plan on buying an Xbox One, eventually, anyway.

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DefHalan

28. Posted:

blaisedinsd wrote:

SCAR392 wrote:

You're only paying $30 for the GamePad, since they did a price drop.

You have nothing to lose by having the GamePad, and much more to gain.

$300 is the bare minimum, which is why they can't sell the Basic SKU, anymore.

Right, but I read it costs them $70 to produce it. They take a small loss on the $300 bundle, lets say they lose $1.

So they can release a bundle for $250 with no gamepad that will cost them $231 to produce and they will make $19 profit instead.

Or they can sell for $231 and brake even, but they probably sell more units at that price too.

Pricing is flexible.

What controller would come in that bundle? The price you show is a console without a controller. So even if they add in the $50 Pro Controller and say it is $30 to build the pro the $250 Bundle would still be at a loss. I don't see a point to that

http://dudehugespeaks.tumblr.com/post/44243746261/nickels-dimes-and-quarters
http://www.penny-arcade.com/patv/episode/why-console-specs-dont-matter
http://www.gamasutra.com/view/news/200271/Video_Don_Daglow_on_nextgen_transition_traps_and_treasures.php

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SCAR392

29. Posted:

blaisedinsd wrote:

SCAR392 wrote:

You're only paying $30 for the GamePad, since they did a price drop.

You have nothing to lose by having the GamePad, and much more to gain.

$300 is the bare minimum, which is why they can't sell the Basic SKU, anymore.

Right, but I read it costs them $70 to produce it. They take a small loss on the $300 bundle, lets say they lose $1.

So they can release a bundle for $250 with no gamepad that will cost them $231 to produce and they will make $19 profit instead.

Or they can sell for $231 and brake even, but they probably sell more units at that price too.

Pricing is flexible.

The value of the Deluxe set still derives from that $350 price point, though. When they sell you a Wii U deluxe set for $300, they're giving the consumer a deal here. Apply that $50 price drop to the GamePad, and you're basically buying the GamePad for $30. That's why there's nothing to lose. $30 for the GamePad is the exact same price you'd be paying for another controller, anyway, so it doesn't detract any potential value.

If they got rid of the GamePad, it wouldn't save Nintendo any money, because they'd have to replace it with another controller anyway. In turn, the price would still stay the same.

Asking for a further price cut, is kind of like looking a gift horse in the mouth. They already made the system more than worth it, in material alone. All that's left is making better software that utilizes it, more effectively.

You have nothing to lose, and much to gain. Take it or leave it.

EDIT: @DefHalen just explained the GamePad's situation, as well, from a strictly hardware outlook. They're still going to put a controller in the Wii U SKU. Replacing the GamePad won't save anyone anything.

Edited on by SCAR392

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blaisedinsd

30. Posted:

DefHalan wrote:

What is the problem with the GamePad that would make Nintendo have it be optional? Devs don't have a problem using it, just finding unique ways to use it. Customers don't have a problem using it, just don't see the point when 3rd parties are using it in unique ways. By making it optional, like the Sony Move stuff is optional, it cuts your install base into two camps, those with GamePads and those without. 100% of people with GamePads can play games that don't require GamePads. 0% of people without GamePads can play games that require the GamePad. That would mean no one would develop games for the GamePad. This is not what Nintendo is trying to do. Devs had a hard time using the Wii-remotes in games but they had time to learn. Devs need time to learn. Expensive AAA titles can't afford to learn but indies can because A) they need that thing that makes them standout and B) have smaller budgets and more flexible engines. Having the GamePad with every Wii U doesn't mean every game has to use its unique features but it gives devs a reason to work with it. The only benefit there is to making the GamePad optional, and destroying the idea of dual screen gaming at home, is that Nintendo might sell a few extra Wii Us from some price cut. We have already seen a price cut doesn't matter too much to people.

Wait so no one developed games for motion plus?

No one is developing games for the gamepad. We are not going to get more Nintendolands, at least not hat have been anounced. We are not going to get third parties doing it either, not with out a larger install base.

Wii-remote motion control is actually a really good example. We got some cool stuff in the beginning but most wii games did not have motion control as some integral feature. It was cool in Mario Kart Wii but not required. All the mario games could have done with out it. Not every game required having motion control tacked on, do we need to shake instead of press a button?

What was the user base for Wii motion plus? We got Wii sports resort to launch it and Skyward sword to close it out......I guess we got Wii Play motion and Red Steel 2....maybe a Tiger woods game.

I think they may sell a few extra Wii U's by doing so, but I don't see how the massive amount of killer featured dual screen gaming is going to be killed by doing so. There is still 6 million gamepads out there and they can still sell more if its a good feature. I think it is and i think they will. I guess you just have less faith in the appeal of it than I do.

blaisedinsd

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shingi_70

31. Posted:

I like the gamepad but that doesn't excuse the fact that Nintendo has done jack to make anything about it compelling.

Abs I guess you took my last comment differently but I was saying that without the gamepad most people kook at the Wii U as a 360 with crappy thirs party support.

WAT!

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Donalp15

32. Posted:

If I am right in thinking, you believe the gamepad to be a good piece of technology. If so then why , if you do not mind me asking, do you want it to be optional?

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SCAR392

33. Posted:

@blaisedinsd
If you understand how important the GamePad is, then you should be approving of it's requirement to be in the SKU.

Consumers literally have nothing to lose, by having the GamePad included. Nintendo already made sure of it, by dropping the price.

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blaisedinsd

34. Posted:

SCAR392 wrote:

blaisedinsd wrote:

SCAR392 wrote:

You're only paying $30 for the GamePad, since they did a price drop.

You have nothing to lose by having the GamePad, and much more to gain.

$300 is the bare minimum, which is why they can't sell the Basic SKU, anymore.

Right, but I read it costs them $70 to produce it. They take a small loss on the $300 bundle, lets say they lose $1.

So they can release a bundle for $250 with no gamepad that will cost them $231 to produce and they will make $19 profit instead.

Or they can sell for $231 and brake even, but they probably sell more units at that price too.

Pricing is flexible.

The value of the Deluxe set still derives from that $350 price point, though. When they sell you a Wii U deluxe set for $300, they're giving the consumer a deal here. Apply that $50 price drop to the GamePad, and you're basically buying the GamePad for $30. That's why there's nothing to lose. $30 for the GamePad is the exact same price you'd be paying for another controller, anyway, so it doesn't detract any potential value.

If they got rid of the GamePad, it wouldn't save Nintendo any money, because they'd have to replace it with another controller anyway. In turn, the price would still stay the same.

Asking for a further price cut, is kind of like looking a gift horse in the mouth. They already made the system more than worth it, in material alone. All that's left is making better software that utilizes it, more effectively.

You have nothing to lose, and much to gain. Take it or leave it.

EDIT: @DefHalen just explained the GamePad's situation, as well, from a strictly hardware outlook. They're still going to put a controller in the Wii U SKU. Replacing the GamePad won't save anyone anything.

Your math is really screwed up here.

$350 doesn't matter. $300 doesn't matter. Price drops don't matter. That's just bad math man.

They manufacture the gamepad for a cost of $70 from what I gather. A pro controller sells for $50 but that is way over priced (and a gamepad sells for $150?)....I would guess it costs maybe $15 at most to manufacture a pro controller and the battery is probably the most expensive part. So that $50 they sell it for don't matter, the $55 they save producing it is what matter. If those numbers were real, and the gimped bundle is $50 cheaper, they go from losing $1 to making $6.....but the lower price helps move hardware too. So it's negative one dollar * whatever= still negative vs. $6 * whatever= profit

Edited on by blaisedinsd

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blaisedinsd

35. Posted:

Donalp15 wrote:

If I am right in thinking, you believe the gamepad to be a good piece of technology. If so then why , if you do not mind me asking, do you want it to be optional?

Because it is nothing but beneficial.

If my battery dies (which it won't because I have that thing juiced up) i can still use my console with out plugging it it.

If my gamepad is broken/lost/stolen/missing/on the otherside of the room, i can still use my console with out having to replace it or get up off the couch and get it.

I know there are people out there who don't like it/don't want it/don't see the value in it.....I think it would be good to offer them the choice because it could help them afford it and it could help nintendo make more cash.

If it is made optional I still get to enjoy the gamepad and all it's features and benefits and it costs me absolutely nothing.

I still think the only reason to keep it that anyone has is this fear that it will vanish or somehow Nintendoland 2 or Game and Wario 2 get cancelled (if your hoping for ZombiU 2 well I have bad news....)

blaisedinsd

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mamp

36. Posted:

Well as of now there aren't many games that actually need the gamepad and with patching some of those games can work without it. Nintendo won't though because there would be a problem with early adopters feeling betrayed. Also people wouldn't like it if their gamepad became useless because Nintendo decided to drop it and obviously Nintendo wouldn't put too much gamepad functionality into their games if the main focus becomes the pro controller. Not to mention the gamepad whether we like it or not is the Wii U's "hook" without it the Wii U will seem like a regular underpowered console (at least when compared to PS4/Xbox1). I guess in a way there might be a lot to lose.

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Donalp15

37. Posted:

Making it optional WILL result in the death of the gamepad, no two ways about it. It is better keeping it and trying to redeem it, than condemn it.
Nintendo have said recently that they are keeping it on and will do great things with it, and as long as they keep true to their word. I see no reason why why making it optional is even being discussed.
Anyway, you are acting like this will suddenly make the sales spike unbelievably which it will not, a short spike maybe, but in the long run it will be back to normal.
The gamepad usage is but a small part of the problem. Third and first party games are in short supply and this is the real problem.

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kkslider5552000

38. Posted:

shingi_70 wrote:

I like the gamepad but that doesn't excuse the fact that Nintendo has done jack to make anything about it compelling.

shh, you're supposed to assume Wii U's main problems have been not including online in every multiplayer game or copy+pasting what the competition did! Not actual valid reasons, what type of critic are you?!

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SCAR392

39. Posted:

@blaisedinsd
If the prices don't matter, then both of our math figurations are "wrong", so good job with contradicting your own post.

They're making sure the GamePad is in every SKU, even if it loses them money, because the software ultimately benefits more with it included, and doesn't effect the consumer. Losing a few dollars on hardeare isn't an issue, because thay can make that back on software.

The GamePad ultimately gives more vaule to the console and software, and that's apparently worth losing $50 or so.

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SuperMalleo

40. Posted:

Many people think the Gamepad is too gimmicky and uninspiring. I think it's a great controller.

Edited on by SuperMalleo

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