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Topic: What does Nintendo have to lose by making the gamepad "optional"?

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Spoony_Tech

121. Posted:

Your logic does not compute. You're saying that a lower price will sell more but didn't Nintendo already do that and no one bought the basic model?? I personally have the basic model with Skylanders and Nintendo Land and spent 250$ so yes it worked for me but if you look at Gamestop it seems to be the permanent price now for that bundle and it's still not selling. The problem is not with the controller and has never been, it's the lack of games and the changing times.

Lets go with your theory and say they offer a 250$ bundle with a pro controller. Does that really make a profit??? What if it costs them 30$ to make it then nothing has changed other then the fact your getting less quality.

Nintendo needs to consider the fact that both Sony And Microsoft haven't been making any money for years on launch systems. Till the 3ds came along all Nintendo Systems sold at a profit till that price cut early in its life. Nintendo needs to make up the profit on the games side of things and consider a loss on all systems going forward at least for the time being.

Edited on by Spoony_Tech

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blaisedinsd

122. Posted:

Kart and smash have large fan bases that don't all jump up and buy the Nintendo console at launch. These games are not going to be titles that need 2 screens, touch, or anything else that requires the gamepad. There are smash fans who are concerned about not being able to use a gamecube controller.

Retaining these fan bases on wii u should be a priority for Nintendo. A lower cost hardware option (with a better profit margin) is a good move. We know these games are going to move hardware, that effect needs to be maximized.

I love the gamepad, amputation analogies don't belong in this thread because it's not about getting rid of the gamepad and offering the option is not the same thing anymore than the 2ds amputated 3d from the handhelds.

The gamepad is great, but there is no chance in hell it will ever generate the interest wii sports and it's motion controls did. The only time to capitalize on such a thing was at launch anyway. There is nothing that can be done with the gamepad that can have that type of effect or we would already have it.

The gamepad is killing nintendos profit margin on hardware sales. There are 4 or 5 games on the system total that could not be played without the gamepad.

All the factors are lined up. When it happens you can go ahead and call me a prophet

Edited on by blaisedinsd

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skywake

123. Posted:

@blaisedinsd
If the intent is to get people into Smash Bros or Mario Kart then a bundle is the way to go not making weird GamePad-less SKUs. I don't see "core" gamers ranting about how horrible the Wii U is because of the GamePad. I see them complaining about the lack of power and the lack of games. A Smash Bros bundle with maybe a special "Smash Bros" edition Pro Controller is what you do to get the core audience in.

You don't make a gimped SKU aimed at dropping the price that does nothing but confuse the entry-level consumer. That's both not where the typical Smash Bros fan will be looking when they enter the market AND not what the entry-level consumer wants. You got this all wrong, when this continues to not happen please don't keep making these threads.

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blaisedinsd

124. Posted:

Spoony_Tech wrote:

Your logic does not compute. You're saying that a lower price will sell more but didn't Nintendo already do that and no one bought the basic model?? I personally have the basic model with Skylanders and Nintendo Land and spent 250$ so yes it worked for me but if you look at Gamestop it seems to be the permanent price now for that bundle and it's still not selling. The problem is not with the controller and has never been, it's the lack of games and the changing times.

Lets go with your theory and say they offer a 250$ bundle with a pro controller. Does that really make a profit??? What if it costs them 30$ to make it then nothing has changed other then the fact your getting less quality.

Nintendo needs to consider the fact that both Sony And Microsoft haven't been making any money for years on launch systems. Till the 3ds came along all Nintendo Systems sold at a profit till that price cut early in its life. Nintendo needs to make up the profit on the games side of things and consider a loss on all systems going forward at least for the time being.

First of all, price always matters. Your logic is saying the first price cut didn't help the system because it's still struggling. That's not actually accurate, the price cut did significantly increase sales if you didn't know.

If a pro controller costs $30 to make then they are making it wrong, but if it did that's still $45 cheaper than the gamepad. Sell it at $275 if you want, but even at $250 you still make basically the same profit margin (all I recall is that the wii u is sold at a slight loss, not sure how much that is) I am not saying that the gamepad is the problem keeping the system from selling, I am saying there are people who don't like it or want it and smash and kart fans are not chomping at the bit over how great the gamepad will make those games.

Nintendo doesn't need to take cues from sony or Microsoft. They make way more money selling video games than either of them. Taking a loss on hardware is not good. The theory is you make it up with software, but there are lots of expenses that also screw you over. The ps2 was an instant hit and yet still lost money in the beginning and sony did not make as much money as Nintendo in that era. The ps3 has practically wiped out all the profits sony made on ps1 and ps2 combined. Nintendo took a loss on 3ds because they were desperate, for wii u the cost of making the gamepad has made hardware profits difficult.

Edited on by blaisedinsd

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banacheck

125. Posted:

For the record, you might as well ask Sony to include the PS Eye and Move, no?

Sony sells gimmicks separately always has, thay also must sell else some of these gimmicks would have died off years ago alone with its software. Here's a little fun fact Microsoft Kinect for the Xbox360 went into the record books it sold millions. So to say the gamepad would died off being an accessory is BS, no one knows how it would sell.

Also when anyone says Nintendo should make the gamepad an accessory as the WiiU is not selling with it, and most of the games don't use it anyway. Thay say (read comments) without the gamepad the Wii U would just be an underpowered Xbox/PS3, and how is the gamepad making the WiiU more powerful again? I thought Nintendo software separated them, apparently it's not it's the gamepad so people cannot think much of the software than. And for those that say well if Nintendo drops the gamepad the haters will say?, you people really need to get out more, or is your god call Nintendo by any chance.

Edited on by banacheck

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blaisedinsd

126. Posted:

skywake wrote:

@blaisedinsd
If the intent is to get people into Smash Bros or Mario Kart then a bundle is the way to go not making weird GamePad-less SKUs. I don't see "core" gamers ranting about how horrible the Wii U is because of the GamePad. I see them complaining about the lack of power and the lack of games. A Smash Bros bundle with maybe a special "Smash Bros" edition Pro Controller is what you do to get the core audience in.

You don't make a gimped SKU aimed at dropping the price that does nothing but confuse the entry-level consumer. That's both not where the typical Smash Bros fan will be looking when they enter the market AND not what the entry-level consumer wants. You got this all wrong, when this continues to not happen please don't keep making these threads.

2ds was $40 price drop and it launched with a huge game marketed toward a fan base that largely didn't care about the 3d feature. Similar situation brewing?

It's a heck of a lot more confusing to say here is this console that looks nothing like a Ds but it plays Ds games (most of them anyway) and 3ds games but not in 3d, just in 2d, and no there are no 2ds games.

For a starter kit all they would really have to say is you can play all wii u games except these 5 which need a gamepad controller. It's far less confusing. The wii has always had those types of questions of what controllers are supported or needed to play which game, heck the wii u has that same issue and a no gamepad bundle doesn't make it any more confusing. Slap some stickers on those games "requires gamepad"

Edited on by blaisedinsd

blaisedinsd

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SCAR392

127. Posted:

@blaisedinsd
Dude, your posts are a huge contradiction. You're telling me that price doesn't matter, but then you're telling @Spoony_Tech that it does.

He just told you that some places are offering a bundle for $250. That's exactly what you were saying should happen, sans the GamePad. The GamePad being optional would negatively effect Nintendo AND the consumer, in that respect.

$250 with the GamePad
$250 without the GamePad

Take your pick. Making the GamePad optional makes absolutely no sense. By saying that it should be optional, you're essentially telling everyone to settle for less. It doesn't matter whether people specifically want it or not, because people technically aren't paying more for it over any other controller.

Edited on by SCAR392

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SCAR392

128. Posted:

OptometristLime wrote:

The only reason that it makes any sense to question the Game Pad is because at this point in time, it has yet to be fully implemented. Within the foreseeable future Nintendo plans to unroll additional features to expand the Game Pad's function and autonomy, hoping to expand the console's appeal. A bare bones SKU will nevertheless lack the impending wow-factor of technologies like Near Field Communication and the more fully realized Nintendo experience that will no doubt unfold as the console reaches maturity.

An admittedly macabre analogy - you don't amputate when the patient is bleeding out.
In other words you seem to be prescribing an extreme route which could be avoided entirely by stabilizing the current situation.

This and specifically that.

EDIT: Now to add my own anaogy:
"Can I get an extra value meal with no fries?" - customer
"That's pointless sir" - McDonald's employee
"Just take my order" - customer
"Ok sir" - McDonald's employee

McDonald's employee hands over food
customer looks in bag and sees fries
throws fries away after looking at a hungry homeless person

Edited on by SCAR392

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blaisedinsd

129. Posted:

SCAR392 wrote:

@blaisedinsd
Dude, your posts are a huge contradiction. You're telling me that price doesn't matter, but then you're telling @Spoony_Tech that it does.

He just told you that some places are offering a bundle for $250. That's exactly what you were saying should happen, sans the GamePad. The GamePad being optional would negatively effect Nintendo AND the consumer, in that respect.

$250 with the GamePad
$250 without the GamePad

Take your pick. Making the GamePad optional makes absolutely no sense. By saying that it should be optional, you're essentially telling everyone to settle for less. It doesn't matter whether people specifically want it or not, because people technically aren't paying more for it over any other controller.

I don't know what contradiction your referring to and I am not really following what poster is saying what. Price always matters when you are trying to sell a product. The only time I was saying it didn't matter was regarding profit margin where I said it didn't matter what the sku was originally sold for, all that matters it how much it costs to make vs how much you sell it for.

The $250 bundle he is referring to is a repackaged 8gb white basic model I believe. I think that is a limited availability type of thing, it's not standard. It's a sky landers bundle, I heard talk of that but I haven't even seen it for sale or know what's in it exactly.

But heck, maybe left over 8gb models can be repurposed for this no gamepad sku. Pricing is flexible and all you have to keep in mind is the gamepad is relatively very expensive to produce and makes it difficult for Nintendo to lower the price they sell it for. It's pretty simple so don't pay attention to that other fuzzy math

blaisedinsd

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SCAR392

130. Posted:

You're throwing away the fries in your value meal. Do you understand?

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skywake

131. Posted:

blaisedinsd wrote:

2ds was $40 price drop and it launched with a huge game marketed toward a fan base that largely didn't care about the 3d feature. Similar situation brewing? It's a heck of a lot more confusing to say here is this console that looks nothing like a Ds but it plays Ds games (most of them anyway) and 3ds games but not in 3d, just in 2d, and no there are no 2ds games.

For a starter kit all they would really have to say is you can play all wii u games except these 5 which need a gamepad controller. It's far less confusing. The wii has always had those types of questions of what controllers are supported or needed to play which game, heck the wii u has that same issue and a no gamepad bundle doesn't make it any more confusing. Slap some stickers on those games "requires gamepad"

The 2DS they can literally say "plays all 3DS games" and they'd be right. How is that confusing? I mean their naming could have been done better but mechanically the 2DS is no more confusing to the average consumer than the 3DS XL is. It's a different version of the same console that is functionally identical. The 3D feature was never required and can be turned off in all games anyways without any impact on any of them in terms of being able to play it.

The GamePad is not like the 3D feature on the 3DS. It's a required feature for some games and it allows you to do things that you can't physically do if you don't have the controller. Ontop of that the cost isn't as big as you're claiming especially when you remember that you have to include a controller either way. Then there's the fact that this GamePad-less SKU wouldn't physically be able to play all Wii U games like the 2DS can play all 3DS games. It's entirely different.

edit: FYI, the 2DS hasn't sold particularly well last I read. The 3DS XL is by far the most popular SKU. A quick search of a few retailers has the 3DSXL in its various forms as the most popular followed by the 3DS. Amazon for example has the top 5 3DSes as the XL, then a 3DS, then a 2DS. People don't want the gimped systems even when they're functionally identical.

Edited on by skywake

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SCAR392

132. Posted:

In the case of the 2DS, you are buying the sandwich and drink in McDonald's language.

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blaisedinsd

133. Posted:

skywake wrote:

blaisedinsd wrote:

2ds was $40 price drop and it launched with a huge game marketed toward a fan base that largely didn't care about the 3d feature. Similar situation brewing? It's a heck of a lot more confusing to say here is this console that looks nothing like a Ds but it plays Ds games (most of them anyway) and 3ds games but not in 3d, just in 2d, and no there are no 2ds games.

For a starter kit all they would really have to say is you can play all wii u games except these 5 which need a gamepad controller. It's far less confusing. The wii has always had those types of questions of what controllers are supported or needed to play which game, heck the wii u has that same issue and a no gamepad bundle doesn't make it any more confusing. Slap some stickers on those games "requires gamepad"

The 2DS they can literally say "plays all 3DS games" and they'd be right. How is that confusing? I mean their naming could have been done better but mechanically the 2DS is no more confusing to the average consumer than the 3DS XL is. It's a different version of the same console that is functionally identical. The 3D feature was never required and can be turned off in all games anyways without any impact on any of them in terms of being able to play it.

The GamePad is not like the 3D feature on the 3DS. It's a required feature for some games and it allows you to do things that you can't physically do if you don't have the controller. Ontop of that the cost isn't as big as you're claiming especially when you remember that you have to include a controller either way. Then there's the fact that this GamePad-less SKU wouldn't physically be able to play all Wii U games like the 2DS can play all 3DS games. It's entirely different.

edit: FYI, the 2DS hasn't sold particularly well last I read. The 3DS XL is by far the most popular SKU. A quick search of a few retailers has the 3DSXL in its various forms as the most popular followed by the 3DS. Amazon for example has the top 5 3DSes as the XL, then a 3DS, then a 2DS. People don't want the gimped systems even when they're functionally identical.

The 2ds was never meant to sell better than the 3d models, but it has been very successful from what I have seen and heard. It's an entry level device, a concept that makes even more sense here because adding a gamepad makes it a fully functional console. And the part about playing all 3ds games is true, it's the "in 2d" part that's confusing along with there being no 2ds games and the system not being called 3ds while playing 3ds games.

They didn't have an issue dropping gamecube from wii even though some games required it ( I have a game where a dance pad basically plugs in to the gamecube controller port)

They didn't have an issue dropping slot 2 from Ds even though some Ds games no longer worked.

They didn't have an issue releasing dsi enhanced games that only worked on Ds systems with cameras.

Sony didn't have a problem going to slim ps2 even though the network adapter/ hard drive adapter didn't work on it and some games wouldn't work without it (or was it just one game?)

They didn't have an issue releasing a top loading Nes even though the game genie didn't work on it (lol).

We are talking about maybe 4 games that won't be playable without a gamepad. I don't think they will sweat it much at all.

blaisedinsd

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DualWielding

134. Posted:

true is Nintendo fanboys would attack anyone who suggest a no gamepad Wii U......... until Nintendo releases a none gamepad Wii U and then they'll call it the most brilliant decision ever.... that happen with the 2DS... they argued against anyone who suggested dropping 3D.... then when the 2DS was revealed many were calling it a joke or a hoax... and once it was evident it was a real thing..... everybody surprisingly change tune and then everybody was like well its no for us but it has a market blah blah blah...

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skywake

135. Posted:

@blaisedinsd
Again, you're ignoring the facts in order to hold up your argument. The reverse of what you're saying is true. There is literally no game that is incapable of being played on the 2DS that works on the 3DS. The DSi basically killed Guitar Hero and GBA support and little more by removing slot-2, it wasn't a heavily used feature. Same goes with the Gamecube ports on the Wii. Between the two of them I only ever used the GameCube ports on the Wii and even then it was just for the VC and Smash/Kart multiplayer.

Compare all of that to the GamePad and I'll limit it to just the games that I have and just the retail ones. Super Mario 3D World would lose the Toad sections and I wouldn't be able to play off-TV. Wind Waker HD would still be playable but I would lose the invaluable map/inventory and again wouldn't be able to play off-TV. Nintendo Land wouldn't work at all. Rayman Legends would be ok except for the Murphy sections where it's required. Assassin's Creed could also be played without it but personally I beat those games off-TV and used the map heavily. Same with Need for Speed: Most Wanted. Wii Fit U I do every morning without the TV, if I had to display my numbers on the TV I would probably not ever use it. Pikmin 3 used the GamePad very well indeed, I personally wouldn't play it with any other controller.

So that's the gulf between the idea of a GamePad-less SKU and the other things that have been done. The difference is the GamePad is a key feature and every game uses it in some way or another. Some games wouldn't work at all without it. So please explain what benefits would flow from making a GamePad-less SKU that would justify the lost of just the above as well as the associated confusion. If we're using the 3DS it's again like removing the bottom screen or removing the CirclePad. Some games work without it but you're making it way more complicated than it needs to be and losing a lot of functionality for little-to-no gain.

@ferthepoet
Frankly I thought the 2DS did make sense. I don't see what the big deal was. Killing the GamePad is an entirely different thing and I would be both shocked and confused if they did it. Entirely different things and to suggest that it's similar is madness.

Edited on by skywake

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gaming_24_7

136. Posted:

ferthepoet wrote:

they argued against anyone who suggested dropping 3D.

My god, even you have to see the big difference. 3D was optional from the beginning. You could turn it off and play all games! And you would agree, that a stereoscopic vision is only a small part of the 3DS-features whereas the GamePad is big part of the WiiU itself.

@topic: I don't think, it would be a problem to make the Gamepad optional in terms of controlling games and menus with the other controllers. But it would be a massive mistake selling WiiUs without a GamePad!

Edited on by gaming_24_7

gaming_24_7

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SCAR392

137. Posted:

@ferthepoet
They didn't drop 3D. They made it's absence an option, because the software was still compatible and it gave another console to appeal to kids and people that wanted to spend less.

Making the GamePad optional, isn't an option.

@blaisedinsd
The GamePad is a system wide feature. The GBA ports and GCN ports weren't a common way to support software on a new console. Those were there, specifically, for BC and the occasional add-on, which were rare as heck. The only things Nintendo supported with slot 2, were Pokemon Safari in Diamond and Pearl, the rumble pack that was only used for 2 or 3 games, and the internet browwser pak. None of that stuff was really necessary to begin with.

Dance Dance probably could have worked via a Wii remote plug or via USB. That was a 3rd party peripheral design issue. Same somewhat goes for GH: On Tour, but if you bought that game, you have a DS or DS Lite, so...

Also, the Game Genie mention makes no sense, and is essentially what was described with DDR and GH(being a 3rd party peripheral).

DSi was an enhanced DS, moving forward. If you remove the GamePad, you're working backwards.

Lastly, Sony's decisions have nothing to do with Nintendo's, unless you want to specifically cite Move as as a reaction to the Wii remote's success, or PSP being used for PS3(GBA/GCN, GB/SNES, GB/N64).

Edited on by SCAR392

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skywake

138. Posted:

The only slot-2 DS accessory that was worth even looking at was the Paddle Controller and that had very, very limited support. Rest of it was just backwards compatibility and the occasional DS game that read data from a GBA cart. Very, very limited compared to how heavily the GamePad is used.

For a cut-priced Wii U they could do a lot further down the road to get there without killing the GamePad. They could remove the AV-out, remove Wii backwards compatibility including the 512MB flash and SD Card slot. They could make the GamePad screen itself smaller, cut back on the internal storage and if it doesn't prove popular they could kill NFC and the camera. Down the road they could also just keep improving efficiency in general to the point where a smaller power adapter and less cooling is needed.

I'm not saying they won't make a cut-down and cheaper SKU. I just don't think getting rid of the GamePad is going to solve any problems.

Edited on by skywake

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SCAR392

139. Posted:

@skywake
I didn't even know that existed. Also, the Play-yan in Japan used the GBA slot.

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DualWielding

140. Posted:

@SCAR392 whether its different or not its not the point... the point is that people argued against it before it happened and now defend it after it happened.... I'm pretty sure you'll be the first defending Nintendo's offering of a non-gamepad Wii U SKU as a good move if it were to happen.... it'll be the same thing Gamepad is still offered for those who want it, a cheaper option is available for people who can't afford a Wii U with gamepad........

and You know 3DS was called 3DS..... Wii U is not called Wii Touch or Wii Dual Screens.... Iwata himself said recently that the main purpose of the gamepad was solving an issue with lack of living room space to play in front of TV in Japan...... they could offer a non gamepad SKU only outside Japan like they did with the 2DS

DualWielding

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