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Topic: Super Smash Bros. for Wii U Thread

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turtlelink

I always found it funny how Smash Bros. is the only fighting game I know of where people complained about wavedashing...

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Happy_Mask

For the record, "Pros" shouldn't be resorting to underhanded methods to achieve victory. Actions such as chain grabbing and the like only prove you can't win otherwise.

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shinpichu

Happy_Mask wrote:

For the record, "Pros" shouldn't be resorting to underhanded methods to achieve victory. Actions such as chain grabbing and the like only prove you can't win otherwise.

I'm sorry, but what about techniques like Wavedashing are "underhanded"? Is it because you don't want to dedicate the time and effort to mastering them or getting around them?

The part of the Smash community I hate the most are the people who tell other people how to play the game. The people who say "it's not Smash" if you don't play under a certain set of rules. Be it the "Stop Having Fun Guys" who demmand every match be played with no items and only on balanced stages, or scrubs who complain when people actually try to get good at the game.

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Snagrio

shinpichu wrote:

Happy_Mask wrote:

For the record, "Pros" shouldn't be resorting to underhanded methods to achieve victory. Actions such as chain grabbing and the like only prove you can't win otherwise.

I'm sorry, but what about techniques like Wavedashing are "underhanded"? Is it because you don't want to dedicate the time and effort to mastering them or getting around them?

The part of the Smash community I hate the most are the people who tell other people how to play the game. The people who say "it's not Smash" if you don't play under a certain set of rules. Be it the "Stop Having Fun Guys" who demmand every match be played with no items and only on balanced stages, or scrubs who complain when people actually try to get good at the game.

I can't stand that either. I understand playing competitively (i.e no items, and on specific stages such as Final Destination) and even do so myself at times, but when that's all you ever do in a game that is supposed to be about fun chaos with random events and actions, it ruins the experience.

Snagrio

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shinpichu

WingedFish wrote:

shinpichu wrote:

Happy_Mask wrote:

For the record, "Pros" shouldn't be resorting to underhanded methods to achieve victory. Actions such as chain grabbing and the like only prove you can't win otherwise.

I'm sorry, but what about techniques like Wavedashing are "underhanded"? Is it because you don't want to dedicate the time and effort to mastering them or getting around them?

The part of the Smash community I hate the most are the people who tell other people how to play the game. The people who say "it's not Smash" if you don't play under a certain set of rules. Be it the "Stop Having Fun Guys" who demmand every match be played with no items and only on balanced stages, or scrubs who complain when people actually try to get good at the game.

I can't stand that either. I understand playing competitively (i.e no items, and on specific stages such as Final Destination) and even do so myself at times, but when that's all you ever do in a game that is supposed to be about fun chaos with random events and actions, it ruins the experience.

I'm more annoyed at the opposite. I don't mind a little randomness now and then, but I totally get people who don't like the rubberbanding caused by stuff like items and random stage hazards. I mean, if Smash HAS to be played with items on, then why do the games give us the option of turning items off in the first place?

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zoroarkrules25

I forgot to add someone to my list, k.k slider or tom nook.

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MasterWario

I'm still wanting Kaptain K. Rool as a playable character...I'm not sure what his full moveset could be, but I'd like to smack characters around with that big 'ol gun of his!

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SCRAPPER392

I think wavedashing was annoying as well. I knew how to do all the 'pro' stuff including wavedash(not that well, but still), but I'm pretty sure those techniques weren't really supposed to be part of the game as actual strategies. If anything, wave dashing was a glitch that just so happened to work as part of the gameplay. It's like how they took snaking out of Mario Kart after DS, except that wasn't a glitch as far as I'm concerned.
Just like on God of War 1 when you do the infinite red orb glitch, there is a give in the actual game mechanics where the harpy enemies can't land to finish its dying sequence, so it keeps putting out red orbs. It's not the exact same situation obviously, but gameplay altering glitches do get into the game unnoticed sometimes.

Edited on by SCRAPPER392

Qwest

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shinpichu

SCAR392 wrote:

I think wavedashing was annoying as well. I knew how to do all the 'pro' stuff including wavedash(not that well, but still), but I'm pretty sure those techniques weren't really supposed to be part of the game as actual strategies. If anything, wave dashing was a glitch that just so happened to work as part of the gameplay. It's like how they took snaking out of Mario Kart after DS, except that wasn't a glitch as far as I'm concerned.

Wavedashing isn't a glitch at all. It's a natural byproduct of the game engine working exactly as it should. I could provide a more technical explanation if you like.

Oh, and Sakurai knew about wavedashing during development.

Edited on by shinpichu

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SCRAPPER392

I understand that, but my point is that wavedashing wasn't meant to be in the game intentionally. They saw you could do that, and just left it. Would you rather have wavedashing OR air grabs, dual item holding, more realistic physics, better hit spots, etc. improvements of that nature?
I'm not saying it's completely a flaw, but like you said, it's a 'byproduct', and that means they didn't intentionally put it in the game. This is the same kind of 'mistake/byproduct' that would allow you to keep flutter kicking when riding Yoshi in Super Mario Galaxy 2.

EDIT: I'd rather have an actual move that's intentionally put into the game that has the same effect as wavedashing, rather than dodging towards the groundwhile inputting a direction.

Edited on by SCRAPPER392

Qwest

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shinpichu

SCAR392 wrote:

I understand that, but my point is that wavedashing wasn't meant to be in the game intentionally. They saw you could do that, and just left it. Would you rather have wavedashing OR air grabs, dual item holding, more realistic physics, better hit spots, etc. improvements of that nature?
I'm not saying it's completely a flaw, but like you said, it's a 'byproduct', and that means they didn't intentionally put it in the game. This is the same kind of 'mistake/byproduct' that would allow you to keep flutter kicking when riding Yoshi in Super Mario Galaxy 2.

You're just substituting 'byproduct' for 'glitch.' Looks like you need it explained to you.

Also, way to pose a false dichotomy. But to answer your question:
-I don't care much about air grabs(though I wouldn't object if they were implemented).
-I'd take wavedashing over "realistic" physics any day.
-And I have no idea what "hit spots" are. Do you mean hitboxes? What do you mean by "better"

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SCRAPPER392

shinpichu wrote:

SCAR392 wrote:

I understand that, but my point is that wavedashing wasn't meant to be in the game intentionally. They saw you could do that, and just left it. Would you rather have wavedashing OR air grabs, dual item holding, more realistic physics, better hit spots, etc. improvements of that nature?
I'm not saying it's completely a flaw, but like you said, it's a 'byproduct', and that means they didn't intentionally put it in the game. This is the same kind of 'mistake/byproduct' that would allow you to keep flutter kicking when riding Yoshi in Super Mario Galaxy 2.

You're just substituting 'byproduct' for 'glitch.' Looks like you need it explained to you.

Also, way to pose a false dichotomy. But to answer your question:
-I don't care much about air grabs(though I wouldn't object if they were implemented).
-I'd take wavedashing over "realistic" physics any day.
-And I have no idea what "hit spots" are. Do you mean hitboxes? What do you mean by "better"

That video explained nothing. I already said that I know how to do that in the game. I think the only reason why you want wavedashing in the game, is beause there's a possibility that not everyone would know what you're doing which could give you the advantage. Wavedashing is not realistic. We're looking for realistic fighting games that don't use computer loop holes.
There's a reason why they removed it from Brawl, although floaty physics weren't that much better... You're seriously saying that an official move that does that exact same action would be worse? That's ridiculous. 3 inputs vs. 1 that does the same thing in a practical way and doesn't look stupid is the better option IMO.

Qwest

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shinpichu

SCAR392 wrote:

That video explained nothing. I already said that I know how to do that in the game.

I didn't want you to watch the video for the tutorilal. I wanted you to watch it for the explanation of why wavedashing happens that starts at around 1:40.

I think the only reason why you want wavedashing in the game, is beause there's a possibility that not everyone would know what you're doing which could give you the advantage.

I honestly don't care all that much about whether or not wavedashing makes it back into Smash 4. And I'm not a pro. I've never been to a tourney in my life, and I'm not all that good at the game. I just hate people spreading misinformation and lies.

Wavedashing is not realistic. We're looking for realistic fighting games that don't use computer loop holes.

Smash isn't realistic. At all. There's basically nothing about Smash that's realistic in any way, nor should it strive to be. Something being more realistic does not make it automatically better.

You're seriously saying that an official move that does that exact same action would be worse? That's ridiculous. 3 inputs vs. 1 that does the same thing in a practical way and doesn't look stupid is the better option IMO.

I don't recall responding to your post. However, I have to question your math. I could two inputs for Wavedashing: jump + airdodge. Uness you count pressing the control stick as a seperate input, in which case I'd say it'd be likely that your "new move" would likely have multiple inputs as well. Unless you want it on a dedicated button that only wavedashes in one direction, in which case I don't think anyone would be interested in it, not even real pros.

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SCRAPPER392

Yes, you technically have to input 3 commands through the controller to perform it.
I don't even really know what exactly could replace wavedashing... Maybe a skid move or something? That's basically what wavedashing was, but it didn't play or look realistically while letting people perform it. It wasn't even in the manual.
I'm all for creativity, imagination, and figuring things out, but even a fantasy game needs to relate to an audience in one way or another. We do live in reality after all, which includes gravity from the world, actually performable moves, other real physics like hot and cold, etc.

Qwest

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Happy_Mask

shinpichu wrote:

Happy_Mask wrote:

For the record, "Pros" shouldn't be resorting to underhanded methods to achieve victory. Actions such as chain grabbing and the like only prove you can't win otherwise.

I'm sorry, but what about techniques like Wavedashing are "underhanded"? Is it because you don't want to dedicate the time and effort to mastering them or getting around them?

The part of the Smash community I hate the most are the people who tell other people how to play the game. The people who say "it's not Smash" if you don't play under a certain set of rules. Be it the "Stop Having Fun Guys" who demmand every match be played with no items and only on balanced stages, or scrubs who complain when people actually try to get good at the game.

This is chain grabbing. It's not even a fight anymore, there is literally nothing you can do to get out of it. There's being good at a game, then there's spamming a cheap system over and over again till your opponent loses. I don't care what the heck you do against CPU's, but this just looks like you're trying to piss people off. I don't care if you think I'm some sort of obnoxious elitist, but anybody who chain grabs a human player I have 0 respect for. You can call me a "stop having fun guy" if you want, but that is NOT being good at a game.

Edited on by Happy_Mask

[16:08] LordJumpMad Hides his gut with a griddle
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SCRAPPER392

@Happy_Mask
Exactly. I see people in online games winning because of lag most of the time, and thinking they are actually good at the game.
That kind of pertains to what you're saying, but I completely agree about spamming moves. There should always be a way to counter a move either before or after it is performed, especially when there are people who will resort to such cheap tactics that were clearly not intentional in the game design.

Qwest

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shinpichu

Happy_Mask wrote:

shinpichu wrote:

Happy_Mask wrote:

For the record, "Pros" shouldn't be resorting to underhanded methods to achieve victory. Actions such as chain grabbing and the like only prove you can't win otherwise.

I'm sorry, but what about techniques like Wavedashing are "underhanded"? Is it because you don't want to dedicate the time and effort to mastering them or getting around them?

The part of the Smash community I hate the most are the people who tell other people how to play the game. The people who say "it's not Smash" if you don't play under a certain set of rules. Be it the "Stop Having Fun Guys" who demmand every match be played with no items and only on balanced stages, or scrubs who complain when people actually try to get good at the game.

This is chain grabbing. It's not even a fight anymore, there is literally nothing you can do to get out of it. There's being good at a game, then there's spamming a cheap system over and over again till your opponent loses. I don't care what the heck you do against CPU's, but this just looks like you're trying to piss people off. I don't care if you think I'm some sort of obnoxious elitist, but anybody who chain grabs a human player I have 0 respect for. You can call me a "stop having fun guy" if you want, but that is NOT being good at a game.

Then don't get his in the first place.

JK. I actuall agree that chain grabbing in Smash could use some work. Maybe some sort of grab tech(not sure what the exact word would be) so that you can break grabs. Though most CGs do take a lot of skill to pull off(with exceptions, like Dedede's grab-release BS). But I'm not sure what other techniques you're referring to. I don't see what's so underhanded about stuff liek Wavedashing.

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Snagrio

To curb this edgy conversation, I'm going to put in my own two cents regarding the upcoming roster. For one thing, WE DON'T NEED MORE MARIO CHARACTERS! I swear, if I had a dollar every time someone's wish list was 90% of more Mario peeps, I'd be at least moderately rich. There are plenty more series that deserve a spot beyond extra Mario characters like Bowser Jr. and Waluigi. Furthermore, people really need to keep their third party hopes in check. Sonic was in because he was the most requested, and Snake was admitted due to Sakurai's, um, friend? don't remember who it was but whatever, begged him to have Snake in. And quite frankly, I don't think he fits with the rest of the SSB cast, but that's just me. Now I'm not saying that more third party characters are completely out of possibilities' realm, for example Mega Man, and ever more so Namco representatives such as Pac-man and Lloyd are quite likely, but when people start throwing ideas around the Crash Bandicoot and Master Chief, that's when it gets ridiculous. Sorry about the rant, but I just needed to release a little steam regarding the matter.

Now as for my own hopes, I'd like to see Chrom (and/or Lucina), K. Rool, and perhaps one of the new Captains in Pikmin 3.

Snagrio

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Happy_Mask

I said nothing about wavedashing.
It's easy to perform, and pretty easy to counter. I don't even understand why it was there in the first place, at least for me it didn't impact the overall gameplay at all. Of course, my friend used to wave dash all the time, so I had a bit of practice with the timing(I could generally land a couple of falcon punches per match), but all it really ever seemed to me was flashy, even at the tournies I attended. I could care less about stuff like that.

[16:08] LordJumpMad Hides his gut with a griddle
[16:08] Reala: what ljm does for cash is ljm's business
[16:08] LordJumpMad: Gotta look good my my next game u_u

shinpichu

Happy_Mask wrote:

I said nothing about wavedashing.
It's easy to perform, and pretty easy to counter. I don't even understand why it was there in the first place, at least for me it didn't impact the overall gameplay at all. Of course, my friend used to wave dash all the time, so I had a bit of practice with the timing(I could generally land a couple of falcon punches per match), but all it really ever seemed to me was flashy, even at the tournies I attended. I could care less about stuff like that.

Alright then. Sorry for the misunderstanding. I wasn't sure what you meant when you said "and the like," and wavedashing is the technique that most scrubs target. My bad.

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