Topic: Super Smash Bros. for Wii U - OT

"At least there was an attempt to balance it."

Yeah, it's not balanced if you're playing it at top high level competitive play. But if you're not, it is balanced. Also, are you implying there was no attempt at balancing Melee? If so, then, lol.

"Melee in my opinion is very broken and overrated."

Unbalanced, I understand. But "broken"? What? Brawl is what I would consider super unbalanced and broken. But Melee? Do you even know what you're talking about? And overrated? No. Only a vocal minority still play it. It's underrated more than anything.

Here's why I think Smash 4 has the worst gameplay in the series:
Throws do way too much knockback.
Ledges are messed up and casualized.
Blastzones are way too far away. (It's hard to kill people because of it)
Little hitstun = hard to combo.
Rolls, spotdodges, and sheilds are broken. Which means an overly defensive game.
Grabs are pretty much the only way to combo characters, and most of the combos are just 2-hitters.

Melee had none of those issues (but it does have chain grabbing, which is kind of cheap.) I don't hate Smash 4's gameplay, I just think the changes made were unnecessary and stupid. It's still very fun though. If I didn't think it was fun, I wouldn't be playing it everyday. Besides, I like all Smash games equally, it's just that Smash 4 is quite disappointing in some areas.

Ewww… no thanks. They all look creepy as hell and his Final Smash makes perfect sense for him. They should have had Mrs. Pacman as a pallet swap though.

Melee underrated?LOL!Do you even know what underrated even means?Cause like hell Melee is underrated.

This is what I heard.

What? I'm sorry, are you referring to Melee, of all games as the most balanced? Last I heard, you still see Fox, Falco, Marth, and Sheik near the top of every single tournament. That's not balanced by any stretch of the imagination.

Meanwhile, I'm noticing that I often beat so-called "top tier" characters with low tier characters in Smash 4. You can definitely argue that Smash 4 is still unbalanced, but you can't sit there and try to act like Melee was somehow MORE balanced. It definitely isn't.

Melee is the definition of broken, though. The competitive meta is almost entirely about breaking the game's intended mechanics in order to take advantage of your opponent's most minor moves. Not to mention wave dashing was unintended, even if Sakurai did intentionally leave it in, when they found it late in development.

I'll agree throws seem a bit OP, a la Diddy Kong and Ness.

How are they messed up... what does "casualized" even mean?!? Are you complaining about the sweet spots, because I fail to see how that's a bad thing. It makes fights far less one-sided than they would be in Melee.

So let me get this straight. You were just complaining about KO's being too easy and now you're complaining about KO's being too hard. Make up your mind. >:/

I fail to see how this is a bad thing. I'm sick of fighting games where you can lock down an opponent for an entire fight with one God mode combo. The fact that Smash doesn't hand you kills and gives the opponent a chance to fight back is exactly why it's so awesome in the first place. If I wanted to watch someone beat me to death in the corner of the screen, I'd go play UMvC3
.

I couldn't disagree more. Seems like I'm ALWAYS getting hit on rolls and grabbed on shields or otherwise, my shield raises just late enough or drops just early enough that I get hit and it looks like the attack went right through my shield. It's like the air dodging complaints. I seriously don't get how people can't just learn to fake an opponent out and hit him late so it hits. The air dodges leave plenty of time to punish a pre-emptive dodge in between, just like the rolls (and heck, you're even vulnerable DURING the roll, apparently) and the spot dodges, which I've avoided commenting on for the most part because it's something I'm terrible at knowing when I need to do that.

I liked the grab argument better when you were pointing out how easy it is to kill opponents, because I don't see this as an actual serious issue. Smash is just as much a game about locking down the opponent as it is reading their responses. If they didn't have a chance to actually fight back, the game would be boring to the majority of us. It's the fact that you always seem to have a chance that makes the game so exciting for those of us that don't have the time to sink hours upon hours of every day into the game.

I don't have anything to say here. This is your opinion and I can respect that. I just felt you needed to rethink a few of your previously-made points.

Though one last thing I wanna point out? Melee was the absolute worst about clones. About 1/3rd of the roster was literally just another character with a new model moving slower or faster than the original character and occasionally adding effects or hitbox changes that don't do a lot to change how the character plays. Even if you try and argue that Brawl had more clones, you have to at least admit that Brawl and Smash 4's clones make an attempt to feel and play different from their counterparts. I went back and played Melee and I absolutely HATE Melee Ganondorf. I also hate Melee Link. Melee... well... EVERYONE. I really hated how Melee played. It never suited me and maybe that's because I didn't have it as a kid, so I only played it for a month before giving it back to my friend, so I didn't sink that ungodly amount of time into it or reach the message that tells you to put the game down, already and go outside because 100,000 matches is ridiculous.

@Suicune

"Throws do way too much knockback, unlike Melee which is perfect in that you can grab them over and over."

I just said later in my post that chain grabbing was cheap. Try again.

"Ledges cant be guarded so you cant recover, unlike Melee when certain characters would have complete control."

I wish in Smash 4 they would have it to where when you're invincible on the ledge, you can edgehog. And when you're not invincible on the ledge, you can steal the ledge from your opponent. That would make it more interesting IMO.

"Blastzones are way too far away, it takes longer to kill than Melee."

It also takes longer to kill than in 64 and in Brawl, too.

"Little hitstun = Players arent stuck getting wombo'd in a 8 hit 65% damage attack."

What's wrong with wanting combos? They're fun.

"Rolls, spotdodges, and sheilds are more useful. Which means an overly defensive game. (Overly=More than Melee)"

Yeah, a bit TOO useful. Also, I'm sorry I don't like watching people roll and shield the whole match instead of actually fighting.

"Grabs are pretty much the only way to combo characters, and most of the combos are just 2-hitters, keeping certain characters from being techinically superior (cough Ice Climbers cooough)."

Wat.

"Melee had none of those issues because it is glorious master game. I don't hate Smash 4's gameplay, I just think the changes made were not identical to Melee."

Cool story bro. 0/10 would read again. It just sounds like you got really butthurt over my post tbh. Also, I appreciate you for shoving words in my mouth, making me sound like a Melee elitist, which in reality, I play and enjoy all the Smash games.

@UGXWolf

"What? I'm sorry, are you referring to Melee, of all games as the most balanced?"

...I didn't say that.

"Last I heard, you still see Fox, Falco, Marth, and Sheik near the top of every single tournament. That's not balanced by any stretch of the imagination."

Read this again >>> "Yeah, it's not balanced if you're playing it at top high level competitive play. But if you're not, it is balanced."

"Meanwhile, I'm noticing that I often beat so-called "top tier" characters with low tier characters in Smash 4."

For Glory doesn't count. Anyone can main a "top tier" character, suck with them and lose all the time with them. Just because someone mains a "top tier" character, doesn't mean they're going to win all the time (For Glory is a prime example of this). Also, keep in mind that Smash 4's primary focus was character balance, so of course it's the most balanced game.

"You can definitely argue that Smash 4 is still unbalanced, but you can't sit there and try to act like Melee was somehow MORE balanced."

I never said that, but I agree.

"Melee is the definition of broken, though. The competitive meta is almost entirely about breaking the game's intended mechanics in order to take advantage of your opponent's most minor moves."

Wavedashing... some hard to do character specific techniques... maybe chain-grabbing... and that's pretty much it. L-canceling doesn't count, because it was intended to be in the game.

"I'll agree throws seem a bit OP, a la Diddy Kong and Ness."

Woah, woah dude, you took that the wrong way. I guess I should've worded that better. What I meant to say was "Grabs are harder to follow up, because they do too much knockback".

"How are they messed up... what does "casualized" even mean?!? Are you complaining about the sweet spots, because I fail to see how that's a bad thing. It makes fights far less one-sided than they would be in Melee."

I thought they could've been handled it better, and thought they could've made it more interesting than it was in Melee (imo). And "casualized" means Sakurai dubbed down something just to appease casual players.

"I fail to see how this is a bad thing."

Look, I just want something that goes on more than 2 hits. I'm not asking for it to go on for 8 hits or anything, just something in the middle.

"I couldn't disagree more."

I feel as if they nerfed the shields, rolls, spot dodges, and air dodges; the game would encourage more offensive play. A lot of tournaments I've seen of Smash 4 are people just running around, using the shields a lot, and too scared to hit each other. It's kind of... not fun to watch., really.

"I liked the grab argument better when you were pointing out how easy it is to kill opponents, because I don't see this as an actual serious issue."

I just don't like how after you throw someone, then hit them with an attack, you pretty much can't follow up anymore. Again, I just wish there was a bit more hitstun.

Your statements on Melee clones and the game.

Alright, that's your opinion. But about this statement...

" I went back and played Melee and I absolutely HATE Melee Ganondorf. I also hate Melee Link. Melee... well... EVERYONE. I really hated how Melee played."

I like Melee Falcondorf! I think Melee Link is okay. Anyway, I got Melee about a year after I got Brawl, and I didn't like it as much as I did Brawl. It had less characters, stages, music, modes, everything. So I after I completed the game, I just went back to Brawl. However, about a year later, my Wii wouldn't read Brawl anymore, so I was stuck with Melee. I just found out about the competitive scene, and that made me hate Melee even more. It infuriated me that a lot people thought Melee was better than Brawl. So yeah, I was a casual elitist back then.

Anyway, since I was stuck with boring Melee, I thought I'd spice things up a bit and learn how to do the "advance techniques". I did, and it took off from there. I started playing all the other Smash games competitively ever since too.

P.S sorry for long post, I had a lot of things to say. .-.

This has nothing to do with the Melee vs. other Smash Bros games knock-down, drag out brawl that going on in the thread right now but there is no greater feeling that destroying a Ness scrub who's strategy is spamming DJ Fire, waiting for you to get hit or block it, and then try and charge at you and grab. They also try to hit consecutive times with his forward air and push you off the stage but I discovered how to air dodge it.

I beat him like 3-4 times in a row but the only person I could beat him with was the Koopalings. Those little brats always come through for me.

Can we stop comparing the games?...

The throws don't have a lot of knockback what are you talkng about? I have trouble backthrowing some at 150% and you basically contradicted yourself by saying blastzones too far. Longer gameplay is much better than short besides I have seen a 6 mins grand finale. Plus in Melee throws do a lot more knockback as opponent's damage goes higher. Speaking of little hitstun, it is actually still easy to combo. And it is better that combos are not handed to you on a plate in this game rather than Melee so you would have to work for it. New ledge mechanics... "casualized?" That's a joke. Look at Little Mac, all you need to do with old ledge mechanics is throw him off then grab ledge then he is over with. With the new mechanics you would actually have to think how to take out your opponents rather than just holding to the ledge which takes absolute no skills at all.

Now don't get me started on Melee being underrated...

Yeah sorry no, ledge guarding is more strategic now than it's ever been. Casualized my foot.

Nintendo Direct soon? owo?? Pl0x?

Also @CapeSmash Yeah, I kinda misunderstood a lot of what you were arguing. I just think it's a silly point to make that the game is unbalanced when it's honestly the most balanced Smash yet. Pikachu in 64, Fox, Falco, and Marth in Melee, and Metaknight in Brawl, at least there's a good seven or eight characters, this time around, that might actually stand a chance in a competitive setting without the user being so well-versed with them, they turn into Amsa.

Second, I personally feel edgehogging is the most unsporting mechanic in the previous games. "Oh, what's that? You want back on the stage? Let me just grab the ledge so you can't get there. Your alternative makes it sound like less of that, but in reality, nothing would actually change from the old mechanics, as just about any situation in which you'd grab the ledge involves a hitbox or lets you do an attack, so it'd essentially function the exact same. This way, you can't just toss them, grab the ledge, and watch them die. (I'm aware that extremely over-generalized and wouldn't work at any low percent or with the majority of characters even at high percent.)

I also find Brawl having the worst graphics laughable. You've apparently forgotten how polygonal Smash 64 looked or how creepy some of Melee's models look. I feel that each successive Smash game has managed to look better than the last, but maybe that's just me.

I wonder if this also means that we'll soon be getting the ability to share stages, the Miiverse stage and tourneys/tournaments?

Direct on 25th March followed by release on April 2nd seems like a reasonable prediction. I definitely don't think there'll be a Direct on April 1st because of obvious reasons so 25th March or 8th April seems more likely.

@CapeSmash Smash 4 has the most cheap AI? I remember Melee's lv 9 computers always spamming grabs and projectiles.

Can't wait to try out Mewtwo, though admittedly I forgot about him since I was playing MH4U for the past month.

Lol I see why no direct on the first of April

If the Mewtwo DLC's pretty much done it should be out in the next few weeks. Might be why NoA stressed the March 31st deadline on Twitter.

I think the Mewtwo DLC is prime candidate for "available to download after this direct". So that's what I predict, whenever we hear about the next direct

So Mewtwo should arrive soon. Do you guys have this suspicion that he would be broken the time he arrives?
And I hope the Mewtwo update comes with tournaments, stage sharing and... more DLC characters like Lucas?

I have a feeling that the update that brings Mewtwo will include a shop, like the MK8 Mercedes update.

1. I'm not sure if he'll be broken.
2. I'm betting that they'll arrive at the same time.
3. While I doubt that there'll be more DLC characters any time soon...if Lucas came back, I'd do the Wess dance. FOR AN HOUR.