Topic: Super Smash Bros. for Wii U - OT

Interesting how Donkey Kong fans are up in arms about the series' "under-representation" when Diddy is one of the least favourite characters.
Maybe K.Rool should have replaced Didds?

Removing five characters that probably didn't required as much effort in favour for five characters that do need more attention probably wouldn't work out. Like I said earlier, Lucy's a free character, she didn't replace anybody and you'd get nothing out of removing her. It's not a matter of numbers but programming and such. Also, we don't really need a Grass-type. Wanting him in is perfectly fine but note that Greninja > Charizard > Lucario is a weakness triangle they have going, if that's one's point. I can't help but feel that Sceptile doesn't add much compared to the other Pokémon rep.

I'll be right there with you with Lucina if that happens.
Though I remember her not doing too badly in those polls.

Same. It's getting on my nerves and making me feel like I'm wrong for liking him so much...

But Miis are complete douches in every Nintendo game they're in!

Him being a douche doesn't mean I hate him just he isn't anywhere near as fleshed out and interesting as Falco

Wait, wait, wait, wait... you're ok with Lucas, but not Wolf? All of my wut.

Lucas is a bit less clone-y than Wolf, who is just a straight-up clone with a worse B-up.

Well I actually have a reason to like Lucina (I like her sword mechanic better than Marth's) but I have no idea why i'd pick Dark Pit over Pit, especially when I hardly play Pit to begin with.

I'm actually ok with Dark Pit though; just making a point.

The sad thing about it is he was an amazing character in Diddy Kong Racing, DK64, Donkey Kong Country 2; but in games now a-days he's the annoying, troll banana-peel character (at least in Smash anyway). I'm going to try and like Diddy a bit more this time around, but those bananas are just so troll and so essential to his strategy. Wait...he still has the banana peels, right?

I read that the first time and read it as Pikmin. Man is that acronym confusing. (PKMN -> PiKMiN)

Huh? Last time I checked, Wolf's a clone only in Specials and Final Smash. He's his own character otherwise; same can be said for Lucas.

And Dr. Mario. Hehehe

Let's analyze that, shall we?

............................Fox................Wolf
Standard A - infinite kicks / three-strike claw with knockback
Forward Tilt - single kick / two-handed single claw (not that Wolf's has more knockback and Fox's is better used to start up a punishment)
Up Tilt - Scorpion kick / high kick (note that Fox's is behind him and Wolf's is in front of him)
Down Tilt - Tail whip / Low claw (note that this can be a good spacing move at high percents with Wolf, whereas Fox will almost never use it due to how slow it is and having limited knockback)
Dash attack - Running kick / Backflip kick (note that Fox's hitbox is only in front of him while Wolf's is around his entire body; Wolf also has a DACUS here that Fox doesn't have)
Grab - Fast / Slow (Wolf will rarely use this. It's hard to land and doesn't combo particularly well; Fox tends to make this a big part of his game when the enemy is a t higher percentage)

Up Smash - Backflip kick / Scissor Kick (note that Wolf's is very clearly intended to loft enemies to start a juggle combo; this is a kill move with Fox)
Side Smash - Forward Butterfly kick / Dash-leading into a heavy claw (Wolf's attack has way more range than Fox's, here comes out especially fast, considering its knockback, and does a painful amount of damage; Fox's is a decent kill move at very high percents)
Down Smash - Split kick / Low Claw (note that Fox's hits both sides at the same time while Wolf's hits one, then the other)

Neutral special - quick blaster / cruel blaster (note that Wolf's blaster has a melee hitbox on the end that deals knock back, allowing the player to do extra damage, if they're up close, he can also only use this once before putting the blaster back and having to redraw it; Fox's blaster only does tiny amounts of damage and is easy to DI out of, but he never has to put the blaster back until he's done firing)
Up Special - Fire Fox / Fire Wolf (Easily the most "cloney" of the movesets, Fox's is farther, but has no pay-off. Great recovery, but weak as an attack; Wolf's his shorter, but locks opponents until the final hitbox, where he kicks and deals extra damage and knockback)
Side Special - Fox Illusion / [Forgot what this one is called] (Again, we see that Fox's move is more of a hit and run with no real knockback and a lot of distance. Wolf's on the other hand, has a sweet spot at the end that can be a very nice kill move or end a juggling combo well, but it's very hard to set up as the angle is a bit odd. Wolf's is shorter and puts him in the air, meaning that spamming it is useless and sets you up to be juggled, while Fox's is much MUCH longer, but stays on the ground, forcing the player to be careful of where, but not really WHEN they use it.)
Down Special - Reflector / Reflector (another arguably cloney one. Off the top of my head, I believe Wolf's has better stun and Fox's has better knockback, allowing Fox's shine to be used as an edge guard while Wolf's is better put to use dropping someone's guard so you can start a combo. Reflecting projectiles is a nice side-effect, but most people prefer to dodge those with Wolf due to slow start-up.)

Final Smash - Landmaster / Landmaster (The big one of the clone argument, they both call down a tank and run over people. However, there's even a difference, here. Wolf's doesn't last as long, but is much faster than either Fox's or Falco and may as well be a OHKO at all times. It practically guarantees one kill per on-stage opponent, but doesn't stick around long enough for two.)

Neutral Air - Jump Kick / Rolling attack (Wolf's deals a lot of damage and hitstun with limited knockback; Fox's is a single hit with plenty of knockback)
Side air - Double kick / forward claw (Fox deals damage twice with limited knockback, while Wolf can use this as a spacing move)
Down air - Falling kick / downward claw (Both good spiking moves, but Wolf's is too slow to be very useful while Fox's might get him killed)

I forgot the up air, but on top of that, Fox can fast fall and actually get something out of it. Wolf's fast fall is only slightly faster than his regular fall speed. Wolf's weight, size, and fall speed make him easy to combo, but he's pretty relentless once you figure out all of the cancels and hitstun combos. Fox plays long-range and tries to get in kills where he can, but Wolf plays close-range and tries to rack up the kills. Fox can play Free-for-all fairly well, but Wolf is out of his element outside of 1-v-1's. Fox can only ever grab the Ledge, but Wolf has a few clipping tricks to catch edge guarders off guard. The two characters play absolutely nothing alike. Fox uses a standard fighting stance giving him a normal, upright hitbox. Wolf stays low to the ground making him harder to hit from the side. Wolf has priority where Fox really doesn't. Their animations, attitudes, playstyles, and tricks aren't even remotely similar. From a design perspective, Wolf's moveset is all about the offense. There's no defense involved, other than beating your opponent so badly that they can't fight back. Fox's moveset keeps opponents on their toes, but requires that the player be defensively mindful, as well. Fox plays a defensive game and Wolf an offensive one. If it wasn't obvious that Wolf's specials were loosely based on Fox's, I'd argue that they aren't clones at all.

Now I can't comment on Ness/Lucas because I can't play either of them, but I know for a fact that Wolf and Fox are different enough that I, as a Wolf main, can't play Fox in the slightest.

EDIT: If you need any further proof that Wolf isn't just a Fox clone with a worse Up-B, look at the competitive tier list. Wolf and Fox are always close to each other, but Wolf is always higher. Every time I look, they're mid-tier and Wolf is ahead. He couldn't be a slower, stronger Fox with a worse Up-B, and still be considered a better character than Fox. That wouldn't make any sense.

Lucas is also completely different than Ness, by the way. I mained Lucas all the time but for the life of me could never play as Ness. It will be difficult to find a new main.

Dark Pit outclasses Pit. A lot apparently. Like there is almost no point in using Pit over Dark Pit. Unless you just really don't want to use Dark Pit.

Same with Lucina and Marth apparently, Marth is not as good, people said that Falco isn't even good in the game.

Ya wolf is definitely not a clone with his A attacks, and his B attacks aren't that bad. Anyways if DLC is a possibility, I have to say wolf has a better chance of returning than Lucas. Unlike Lucas, wolf is actually going to appear in a new game soon while the mother series ended a while ago. Oh and I always thought Lucas was much more cloney than wolf. Lucas' A moves were mostly original while wolf's A moves were completely original. Sorry if I dissed the Lucas fans. If anything, Lucas still some shot at returning if DLC is in the cards.

I'm not in the mood to argue why Lucas is more or less of a clone than Wolf, but I would say the two equally deserve their own slot from Fox and Ness.

The thing that baffles me most with Lucas' exclusion is how he was going to replace Ness twice.(first in Melee before Earthbound 64 was cancelled, and then in Brawl after Mother 3 where they decided to keep both Ness and Lucas) I figured that after ultimately deciding to keep the two Mother characters, they wouldn't drop Lucas since they clearly thought he was more important than Ness at one point. But I guess they just don't want him there anymore, and kept Ness because he was a 64 veteran.

I'M SO HYPED