Topic: Should Zelda take notes from Kid Icarus and Fire Emblem?

One of the reasons Kid Icarus: Uprising and Fire Emblem: Awakening were so great was because of the characters. I always felt that the lesser popular Nintendo games always had the best and most interesting characters, and it shows with these games. Each character had a unique personality, their own set of desires, passions, quirks, likes, dislikes, aditudes towards others, and reasons for fighting that made them more 3 dimensional than in some of Nintendo's more popular games. And while they used a few anime archetypes, they were written in such a way that it made them feel more like well done cartoon characters similar to the ones you'd see on Adventure Time, My Little Pony: FiM, Pre-Movie SpongeBob, Gravity Falls, or even the new Ninja Turtles series. Not to mention, the writing. Both games are excellently written and localized, filled with smart and light-hearted character interactions, jokes that go beyond the lowest common denominator and can entertain adult audiences, quotable meme generators, and are rarely afraid to poke fun at their own logic.

Now Zelda has experimented with this before, such as Majora's Mask, Wind Waker, and Skyward Sword. But I always felt Nintendo could take it a step further. Now they don't have to make the plot super deep or complex, Uprising and Awakening had reletivley simple stories. But give the side characters a bit more depth this time, make the NPC's unique and funny, and don't be afraid to poke fun at the game occasionally. So do you think a Zelda game like this will work?

Interesting question. I definitely think it could work. I doubt they'd go too far down that road though. Nintendo have never been hugely into telling stories. They've always put their gameplay first. It feels like they really know what their strengths are. And given how hard it seems to be to write games with good stories that actually work, a phenomena that might actually be getting worse than it used to be, maybe they're best just keeping it simple.
If they do want to get into making deeper characters and telling emotional and sweeping tales, I'd personally prefer they created a new franchise for that purpose. The Zelda formula works as it is. We don't want them doing a Final Fantasy on it.

I'm not asking for a Final Fantasy treatment either, But I would like the team to take some inspiration from the things Uprising and Awakening did with their characters.

I partially agree but I don't think they need to do that much more tbh.

I mean, every time I look back at Link's Awakening...honestly parts of that game have better storytelling than a good chunk of story driven games. Like the silly, dumb things you can do while Marin is with you is actually one of the more believable romances in gaming. XD

No, but it really is. It's very genuine and cute and I bonded more with that character than I did with a lot of Final Fantasy characters. And not to mention later games like the larger sidequests in Majora's Mask (or everything about Majora's Mask practically...), or the major plot parts of Wind Waker and Skyward Sword or Groose's character arc are honestly way ahead of most games in terms of storytelling. I do worry if they go too far it will take away from things though. A mix of too much of a good thing and added details from storytellers that likely work best with less detail, and despite my praises for Skyward Sword, there was too much story at the beginning and not enough quality Zelda gameplay.

Wow, I completely disagree.

But first, to address TC's point, yes, and I think Twilight Princess did this to an extent. Nearly every notable NPC not named Zelda or Ganon had a good amount of personality, some having their own arc. Also, to be quite honest, of all the cartoons out there I have no idea why you chose SpongeBob, a show who's appeal derives from stupid humor, not interesting characters. A well done cartoon character is Goliath from Gargoyles or Terry MgGiniss from Batman Beyond. But I digress.

Anyway, I don't get the praise for LA's story. It just feels like there is zero tension once the twist happens. It's not like you really got to know any of the island inhabitants aside from Marin anyway. I thought Oracle of Ages did a MUCH better job with storytelling, actually putting stakes on the line, offering characters with problems that helped you know them more. I also don't get the love for Groose. He's not a bad character persay, but I think he still feels like a comic relief character even towards the end. His development wasn't bad either, I just don't think it felt very important at all in the grand scheme of things. It might just be that, like LA, SS doesn't have a lot of tension. The world doesn't seem blighted or struggling, everything is just about what's to come. So Groose growing to be a more responsible didn't feel like it had the same importance to the stakes as it did with Talo in TP, even though the latter lost relevance halfway through.

EDIT: LA not ALttP. It's late, sorry.

That's Link's Awakening, not ALttP.

Thanks, fixed it.

Haven't played either of those games but listened to my kids enough to know as great as KI Uprising is I don't think that's the way to go for a Zelda game, too much 4th wall breaking and humour for what should be the th eWii Us flagship title.

What Zelda U does need though is voice acting. I'm OK w/ silent protagonist Link, I've played enough Squeenix RPG that I'm used to that, but everybody else needs to have english spoken dialogue (or whatever language you play in). I wasn't even going to play Skyward Sword b/c of that but I got to play it for free.

I thought they did a good job bringing in interesting secondary characters to Metroid Prime 3 after the fist 2 were such solitary affairs, I'd really like to see the new Zelda U game follow suit and see Link and Zelda exist in a world full of other characters - who speak. It's way past time.

For a main title, even a more story-driven Zelda game wouldn't have that much of an impact on the gameplay. But changing the roles or character development would be a welcome change (Link isn't the hero of time, Zelda isn't a princess, Ganon is a regular Gerudo guy who has nothing to do with evil), and while story-related changes could lead to the typical outcome, the context created along the way would heavily influence the atmosphere and characterization of many events, especially the finale.
I always had my gripes with how distant Link and Zelda are in every Zelda game except Skyward Sword, and I'd love to see the standard formula get shaken up a good bit.

I disagree with the SpongeBob remark, a big part of the show's charm is SpongeBob himself and for all of if it's faults for it's simplicity it doesn't speak down the audience . He's a constantly optimistic goof surrounded by the depressed and greedy who makes a good counter to the overly angst of Batman Beyond/Gargoyles in a medium aim at children and even then those shows didn't have their own dud episodes or characters.

I wouldn't mind that, but the mistake Skyward Sword made was that they tried to make Link a character, and focus the story around the relationship between two characters completely separate from you. IMO, a big draw of Zelda is how the player can project himself or herself onto Link, such that the story revolves around characters YOU like. Skyward Sword tells and doesn't show. You are just constantly told Link and Zelda are childhood friends that like each other. You never really are shown why you should like Zelda or why Link likes Zelda.

I don't think Spongebob speaks down to it's audience, it just doesn't have particularly special characters, and it's humor isn't as much witty as it is funny because it's absurd or stupid (hence why I prefer Phineas and Ferb 1000 times more)

See, the thing about Uprising and Awakening is they each had a lot riding on their success. Uprising was reviving a long dormant IP and Awakening was to be the last game if it ended up not being successful. They basically HAD to have interesting characters and plot.

Zelda is quite safe, so unfortunately there's really no incentive for them to really try too hard with the characters and even the story sometimes, though it's leagues better than Mario.

TLDR: I'd love if Zelda games had more interesting characters and story but there's no need for them to do that, so they won't.

I'm talking about SpongeBob Seasons 1-3. Not any of the garbage that happened after the movie.

I'm aware. Spongebob has never been witty. Ever. All of the characters are complete caricatures, with the exception of maybe Sandy Cheeks. And the humor stems from the ridiculous antics that happen. That's part of why I've never been crazy about the show. Wouldn't say I hate it, but I'm not among the fanbase.

Back in the day, my cartoon of choice was The Adventures of Jimmy Neutron. It focused a lot more on referential humor, parody, and social commentary (among younger age groups).

To be honest, while it could definitely use some of the character/script/plot concepts from the games you mention, I think it'd be better if it took inspiration from a mix of Kid Icarus Uprising and Luigi's Mansion Dark Moon in terms of the world building and gameplay style more than the characters.

I mean, Dark Moon is basically a Zelda game in all but name, and its probably a better one in terms of atmosphere than any Zelda game made in the last few years or so. Treacherous Mansion in particular was very much like a Zelda dungeon, and the design/tone of the place almost seems perfect for the series. And Uprising... well from what I've heard, the ideas in that are great, and the game looks pretty damn good too. Certainly more fresh than modern Zelda games.

I've always wondered what a Zelda game would be like with an attacking group instead of just Link (like Final Fantasy but not RPG). It would be pretty different in terms of gameplay though so I don't know how that would work.

I really like the concept laid out in Legend of Zelda: Clockwork Empire though. It would be awesome to see this in a game: http://dresdencodak.tumblr.com/post/47724463171/inspired-by-a... It shakes up the formula a little bit while still retaining key concepts. And Zelda and Link switch roles, which I would love to see.

Anytime Nintendo tries to add a deep story to one of their flagship titles it never seems to end well (think Mario Sunshine, Super Paper Mario, Metroid Other M and Smash Bros Brawl). I'd like to see them give it another shot but they do they need to hire professional writers (and if they get voice actors as well if they choose to add voice acting).

Super Paper Mario's story was amazing; and Brawl's, while unnecessary, was fun and contained great fanservice.

I feel like I'm a part of this "old guard" that feels that the Zelda formula is pretty much perfect as-is and doesn't need any major upheaval. Something like full voice acting... no, I don't think it would benefit Zelda at all. I actually find the babble and gibberish to be charming and fun. Midna was about as close as we ever got to actual voice acting, and I honestly think that's far enough.

The thing about Zelda is that it's more or less supposed to be an interactive storybook. It relies heavily on injecting your own thoughts and emphasis into the characters and story. If you're a parent or have ever read to small children, it's probably pretty relatable. You make up your own voices for characters, often silly and exaggerated, and put emphasis wherever you feel necessary. To involve both the story teller and the audience in this imaginative narrative is where all the strength of the story and characters comes from.

You also have to let the musical cues influence your thoughts on characters. Take Ocarina of Time for example. Before you even see that damn owl, the music starts in and you immediately get a mental impression on a character that you don't even see yet. This is very important, to associate places and characters with musical themes. It greatly increases the effect of story telling, and something that Zelda has always excelled at.

Admittedly its been a while since I've played Super Paper Mario, but I remember the game being the wall of text with characters that weren't very interesting (Count Bleck got interesting towards the end though so there is that).
And you're right that Brawl was fanservice and the cutscenes were nice, but it felt like a chore to get through the story mode in that game.