Wii U Forum

Topic: Should Link be a girl?

Showing 321 to 340 of 374

AuthorMessage
Avatar

Aviator

321. Posted:

thelastlemming wrote:

WhiteKnight wrote:

She's a male character.

The fact that the person in the suit is some what "gender ambiguous" doesn't make the role inherently male. Maybe you would rather leave it open as to what exactly could entail a more feminine protagonist, and don't wan to go into details. But I don't see how this leads us away from being sexist, after all now we are saying that being a strong, confident, unflinching defender of the galaxy precludes the role from being female. To me that's a worse place than where we started.

In this day and age, to most people, if they saw a person in a space-suit that was completely genderless, then yes. People could think that she was either a man/a woman.

In 19whoknowswhen, whe Metroid was released, everyone assumed that Samus was a man, and that was due to the time it was released in and all that jazz.

The problem is, Nintendo has done little to nothing to move Samus away from the 'perceived male role' she plays. When they tried to do it in Other M, they resorted to using stereotypes, such as a female following orders and the whole motherhood thing.

The following orders thing isn't that bad when you look at it separately, but they take a female character, who previously hasn't given a damn about orders and place her in that position, it removes and progress on making Samus a female character.

I'm fine with a female character having maternal instincts, but by halfway through Other M I was sick of hearing about something that referenced motherhood.

When you touch me I die,
just a little inside,
I wonder if
this could be love.
PSN: naviator_9

AuthorMessage
Avatar

Chrono_Cross

322. Posted:

but they take a female character, who previously hasn't given a damn about orders

Are we talking about the same Samus? Last time I checked, Samus took her orders very seriously and never acted like a rebellious punk.

Just for you.
"I'm just a musical prostitute, my dear." - Freddie Mercury

AuthorMessage
Avatar

OptometristLime

323. Posted:

Okay that helps me to understand your position better then. And Waltz fleshed out his argument as well.

Aviator wrote:

The following orders thing isn't that bad when you look at it separately, but they take a female character, who previously hasn't given a damn about orders and place her in that position, it removes and progress on making Samus a female character.

Our interpretations of her character probably hinge on the above point. Certainly I agree that the circumstances of her role in Other M were trite and all too convenient. The question to me is first whether Samus failed as a female character; if so was it because she took on a subservient role in following Adam's command? A soldier to me will obey orders to the last, not blindly as an ignorant child, but according to how he understands his role in relation to superior officers.

Miyamoto on his desire to focus more on the (hard)core Nintendo fan.

[The casual] attitude is, ‘okay, I am the customer. You are supposed to entertain me.’ [...] and to me it’s kind of a pathetic thing.

You are what you eat from your head to your feet.

AuthorMessage
Avatar

Aviator

324. Posted:

Chrono_Cross wrote:

but they take a female character, who previously hasn't given a damn about orders

Are we talking about the same Samus? Last time I checked, Samus took her orders very seriously and never acted like a rebellious punk.

Could've worded that better.

What I trying to say is that at the end of the day she is still a bounty hunter. She plays by her rules, except in Other M.

When you touch me I die,
just a little inside,
I wonder if
this could be love.
PSN: naviator_9

AuthorMessage
Avatar

Bankai

325. Posted:

The fact that the person in the suit is some what "gender ambiguous" doesn't make the role inherently male. Maybe you would rather leave it open as to what exactly could entail a more feminine protagonist, and don't wan to go into details. But I don't see how this leads us away from being sexist, after all now we are saying that being a strong, confident, unflinching defender of the galaxy precludes the role from being female. To me that's a worse place than where we started.

It does when it surprises people when they realise for the first time (via finishing a game and getting a bikini shot) that Samus was actually a woman. Back when the Samus character first appeared the industry was almost completely male dominated, and the assumption was that this armoured character you were in control with was male. We all take that for granted now, but Samus was for all intents and purposes a male character for most people until told otherwise.

I was looking for some academic papers on this - either supporting my analysis or not - but there's nothing really out there. There really does need to be more academic analysis and criticism of video games. It makes these debates far easier/ more interesting to argue.

Digitally Downloaded - best darned game site on the web ;-)

AuthorMessage
Avatar

Bankai

326. Posted:

thelastlemming wrote:

Okay that helps me to understand your position better then. And Waltz fleshed out his argument as well.

Aviator wrote:

The following orders thing isn't that bad when you look at it separately, but they take a female character, who previously hasn't given a damn about orders and place her in that position, it removes and progress on making Samus a female character.

Our interpretations of her character probably hinge on the above point. Certainly I agree that the circumstances of her role in Other M were trite and all too convenient. The question to me is first whether Samus failed as a female character; if so was it because she took on a subservient role in following Adam's command? A soldier to me will obey orders to the last, not blindly as an ignorant child, but according to how he understands his role in relation to superior officers.

The problem is that male soldier characters in fantasy/ hero stories are under no obligations to follow orders.

Consider the ultimate soldier character - Captain America. He is only a captain - a mid-ranking solider, and yet he is the one in command. Always. He flaunts the rules of his superiors when it suits him, and the plots universally reward his "initiative." A real Captain America would have faced the firing squad multiple times over.

This is the one character trait of Samus' that is "female" rather than "male" - she 'kicks ass' like a man, and wears armour that mean uninformed people mistake her for a man, but come crunch time she remains subservient and even domestic - supporting her male superiors rather than challenging them.

This goes back to the old expectations that the woman stay at home and make sandwitches for her man who does all the hard work and makes all the decisions of the household. It's a female stereotype that has proven to be really, really difficult to shake in gender politics.

Edited on by Bankai

Digitally Downloaded - best darned game site on the web ;-)

AuthorMessage
Avatar

OptometristLime

327. Posted:

WhiteKnight wrote:

It does when it surprises people when they realise for the first time (via finishing a game and getting a bikini shot) that Samus was actually a woman.

That could have had everything to do with the proliferation of male main characters, and so people made unfair assumptions. I don't think Nintendo or anybody should have to go out of their way to make gender an issue.

Basically what I'm saying is that it shouldn't matter who the avatar we are controlling is, unless the absence of that care results in a false impression. So maybe it would have helped to let people know they were playing a female from the start of Metroid. I'm just not convinced that that distinction would have been important, as the role of the character would remain unchanged. By obscuring the gender of the protagonist until that final reveal, it actually broke down the barriers of gender in my view, by astonishing the player at what a woman could do (in the video game space). Manipulative? Probably. But an interesting way to attack stereotypes, all the same.

Edited on by OptometristLime

Miyamoto on his desire to focus more on the (hard)core Nintendo fan.

[The casual] attitude is, ‘okay, I am the customer. You are supposed to entertain me.’ [...] and to me it’s kind of a pathetic thing.

You are what you eat from your head to your feet.

AuthorMessage
Avatar

Aviator

328. Posted:

thelastlemming wrote:

Basically what I'm saying is that it shouldn't matter who the avatar we are controlling is.

Then Nintendo should never have revealed her.

Samus could have stayed as a genderless character who kicks butt, but they revealed her a female and failed to do anything with it from there onwards.

When you touch me I die,
just a little inside,
I wonder if
this could be love.
PSN: naviator_9

AuthorMessage
Avatar

Chunky_Droid

329. Posted:

WhiteKnight wrote:

thelastlemming wrote:

Okay that helps me to understand your position better then. And Waltz fleshed out his argument as well.

Aviator wrote:

The following orders thing isn't that bad when you look at it separately, but they take a female character, who previously hasn't given a damn about orders and place her in that position, it removes and progress on making Samus a female character.

Our interpretations of her character probably hinge on the above point. Certainly I agree that the circumstances of her role in Other M were trite and all too convenient. The question to me is first whether Samus failed as a female character; if so was it because she took on a subservient role in following Adam's command? A soldier to me will obey orders to the last, not blindly as an ignorant child, but according to how he understands his role in relation to superior officers.

The problem is that male soldier characters in fantasy/ hero stories are under no obligations to follow orders.

Consider the ultimate soldier character - Captain America. He is only a captain - a mid-ranking solider, and yet he is the one in command. Always. He flaunts the rules of his superiors when it suits him, and the plots universally reward his "initiative." A real Captain America would have faced the firing squad multiple times over.

This is the one character trait of Samus' that is "female" rather than "male" - she 'kicks ass' like a man, and wears armour that mean uninformed people mistake her for a man, but come crunch time she remains subservient and even domestic - supporting her male superiors rather than challenging them.

This goes back to the old expectations that the woman stay at home and make sandwitches for her man who does all the hard work and makes all the decisions of the household. It's a female stereotype that has proven to be really, really difficult to shake in gender politics.

This makes me want Iron Man to actually be Pepper Potts, with Tony Stark looking after a baby all day :)

Feel free to add me to any of the listed consoles or services here :D just let me know who you are!

3DS Friend Code: 4554-0236-4791 | Nintendo Network ID: Chunky_Droid | Twitter: chunky_droid

AuthorMessage
Avatar

Bankai

330. Posted:

thelastlemming wrote:

WhiteKnight wrote:

It does when it surprises people when they realise for the first time (via finishing a game and getting a bikini shot) that Samus was actually a woman.

That could have had everything to do with the proliferation of male main characters, and so people made unfair assumptions. I don't think Nintendo or anybody should have to go out of their way to make gender an issue.

Basically what I'm saying is that it shouldn't matter who the avatar we are controlling is, unless the absence of that care results in a false impression. So maybe it would have helped to let people know they were playing a female from the start of Metroid. I'm just not convinced that that distinction would have been important, as the role of the character would remain unchanged. By obscuring the gender of the protagonist until that final reveal, it actually broke down the barriers of gender in my view, by astonishing the player at what a woman could do (in the video game space). Manipulative? Probably. But an interesting way to attack stereotypes, all the same.

Even assuming that your reading of the text is the accurate one - explain to me why Samus needs to be stripped down to almost nothing as a reward for 'playing well?'

That little piece of sexploitation immediately makes me question the motives of everything else Nintendo has done with that character. I suspect it went like this: Nintendo liked the Alien movies, but the lead character in those movies was female. Female characters were, at the time, far more difficult to market than the male power fantasy, so Nintendo deliberately obscured her form to deceive people into thinking this was a male character.

Then the reveal, and everyone was shocked. But to make it a nice shock Nintendo decided to turn Samus' gender into a reward.

None of that is innocent to me, nor does it make the character of Samus empowered.

Digitally Downloaded - best darned game site on the web ;-)

AuthorMessage
Avatar

Bankai

331. Posted:

ChunkyDroid wrote:

WhiteKnight wrote:

thelastlemming wrote:

Okay that helps me to understand your position better then. And Waltz fleshed out his argument as well.

Aviator wrote:

The following orders thing isn't that bad when you look at it separately, but they take a female character, who previously hasn't given a damn about orders and place her in that position, it removes and progress on making Samus a female character.

Our interpretations of her character probably hinge on the above point. Certainly I agree that the circumstances of her role in Other M were trite and all too convenient. The question to me is first whether Samus failed as a female character; if so was it because she took on a subservient role in following Adam's command? A soldier to me will obey orders to the last, not blindly as an ignorant child, but according to how he understands his role in relation to superior officers.

The problem is that male soldier characters in fantasy/ hero stories are under no obligations to follow orders.

Consider the ultimate soldier character - Captain America. He is only a captain - a mid-ranking solider, and yet he is the one in command. Always. He flaunts the rules of his superiors when it suits him, and the plots universally reward his "initiative." A real Captain America would have faced the firing squad multiple times over.

This is the one character trait of Samus' that is "female" rather than "male" - she 'kicks ass' like a man, and wears armour that mean uninformed people mistake her for a man, but come crunch time she remains subservient and even domestic - supporting her male superiors rather than challenging them.

This goes back to the old expectations that the woman stay at home and make sandwitches for her man who does all the hard work and makes all the decisions of the household. It's a female stereotype that has proven to be really, really difficult to shake in gender politics.

This makes me want Iron Man to actually be Pepper Potts, with Tony Stark looking after a baby all day :)

I shouldn't have mentioned The Avengers. I love that movie with a passion but holy cow is it offensive from a gender politics point of view.

The only superhero with no real special physical powers beyond combat training is the female. Her weapon is her ability to manipulate other people.

That, ladies and gentlemen, is a role Scarlett should have been offended by.

Digitally Downloaded - best darned game site on the web ;-)

AuthorMessage
Avatar

OptometristLime

332. Posted:

Aviator wrote:

thelastlemming wrote:

Basically what I'm saying is that it shouldn't matter who the avatar we are controlling is.

Then Nintendo should never have revealed her.

Samus could have stayed as a genderless character who kicks butt, but they revealed her a female and failed to do anything with it from there onwards.

Not to be facetious but, Samus was never genderless.
Maintaining Samus' character through the games was a success in that a strong female character came to the forefront. That I won't yield on.

I think we all agree that the bikini reveal in Metroid was the wrong way to introduce the character. However I don't agree that missteps like her inconsistent characterization in Other M and indeed the bathing suit have diminished her contribution as a female protagonist. The fact that we are having this discussion/argument is an encouraging sign to me that Samus has been and will continue to be a meaningful icon.

Miyamoto on his desire to focus more on the (hard)core Nintendo fan.

[The casual] attitude is, ‘okay, I am the customer. You are supposed to entertain me.’ [...] and to me it’s kind of a pathetic thing.

You are what you eat from your head to your feet.

AuthorMessage
Avatar

skywake

333. Posted:

WhiteKnight wrote:

Why couldn't Nintendo do a co-op style game where Link and Zelda explored and worked together? [...] Or, here's an even better one - make Link a NPC, and Zelda the playable character. Link could still pop up in the story from time to time, but Zelda could be the one exploring the dungeons and fighting the bosses.

The first question should be what would it add to the gameplay. Spirit Tracks did the co-op thing, which I'm sure you'll happily complain about, but there was a reason for it in the gameplay. Skyward Sword did the strong female character thing but they didn't need to make the protagonist a female to do it.

WhiteKnight wrote:

skywake wrote:

Apparently Samus is a male character because she takes orders from her superiors...........

No. She's subservient to her superiors. There's a difference.

Not if your argument is that Samus is a male character. If a Master Chief even Duke Nukem character said they had to take orders from a superior because that was just part of the job there'd be no problem. You certainly wouldn't say "oh, that makes sense because they are a man".

What you're trying to argue here is that Samus is a male character.... because her suit is not gender specific. Then separately you're trying to argue that Metriod is sexist because she's weak and they do their whole Zero suit thing. I agree with the latter I don't agree with the former.

Edited on by skywake

NNID: skywake

AuthorMessage
Avatar

Morphbug

334. Posted:

Most of the males in The Avengers are either failed experiments or normal people with props.
I bet she could get her own Iron Woman armor if she wanted though.

Though to be honest, I don't see what's so new about Samus' personality in Other M, as far as I know she was always supposed to be like that (according to the Japanese comics [from which Fusion and Other M take a lot]), also, I seem to remember that she was not supposed to be a "bounty hunter" but they decided to use that name because it sounded "cooler" (And this was the same team who decided to name her "Samus Aran" after a random soccer player).

Edited on by Morphbug

Oh look! A Morphloggery.
Oh! eShop Gurus.

3DS Friend Code: 0173-1330-0080 | Nintendo Network ID: Abgarok

AuthorMessage
Avatar

Bankai

335. Posted:

thelastlemming wrote:

Aviator wrote:

thelastlemming wrote:

Basically what I'm saying is that it shouldn't matter who the avatar we are controlling is.

Then Nintendo should never have revealed her.

Samus could have stayed as a genderless character who kicks butt, but they revealed her a female and failed to do anything with it from there onwards.

Not to be facetious but, Samus was never genderless.
Maintaining Samus' character through the games was a success in that a strong female character came to the forefront. That I won't yield on.

I think we all agree that the bikini reveal in Metroid was the wrong way to introduce the character. However I don't agree that missteps like her inconsistent characterization in Other M and indeed the bathing suit have diminished her contribution as a female protagonist. The fact that we are having this discussion/argument is an encouraging sign to me that Samus has been and will continue to be a meaningful icon.

I definitely agree that this healthy academic debate we're now having (thank goodness) is a healthy thing. Look, ultimately we don't have to agree on these things for this discussion to be productive. You and Skywake have made me think. Even if it's to be able to defend my own point of view or solidify my perspective on things, it's made me think. I would certainly hope it's the same for you guys.

Thinking is good. Whether deliberate or unconsciously, future discussions I have will refer back to this debate, and that is progress - in my understanding of the topic and in hopefully others.

The last page or so of this topic has been pretty awesome. Thanks folks.

Digitally Downloaded - best darned game site on the web ;-)

AuthorMessage
Avatar

Bankai

336. Posted:

Morphtroid wrote:

Most of the males in The Avengers are either failed experiments or normal people with props.
I bet she could get her own Iron Woman armor if she wanted though.

Though to be honest, I don't see what's so new about Samus' personality in Other M, as far as I know she was always supposed to be like that (according to the Japanese comics [from which Fusion and Other M take a lot]), also, I seem to remember that she was not supposed to be a "bounty hunter" but they decided to use that name because it sounded "cooler" (And this was the same team who decided to name her "Samus Aran" after a random soccer player).

Those 'failed experiments' made those men superior beings. Tony Stark had superior intellect, and Hawkeye was a superior physical specimen without any chemical aid (it's just more subtle, but you try and be as accurate with a bow).

Thor is literally Godlike. So, again it doesn't reflect well on the movie, from a gender point of view that Black Widow is physically and intellectually inferior to her peers and her one 'special ability' is an morally borderline one.

Batman got things better. Cat woman may have been a femme fatalein some ways, but she was also a physically superior human with a far more pure moral code than even Batman. She was the equal of the male heroes and anti heroes, without needing to actually be a 'male character' or resort to stereotypical female 'weapons.'

Edited on by Bankai

Digitally Downloaded - best darned game site on the web ;-)

AuthorMessage
Avatar

OptometristLime

337. Posted:

I feel quite the same. :)

Mostly it helped me come to a better understanding of the topic, and I feel the issue at hand got fair debate on all sides. That's all I need!

Miyamoto on his desire to focus more on the (hard)core Nintendo fan.

[The casual] attitude is, ‘okay, I am the customer. You are supposed to entertain me.’ [...] and to me it’s kind of a pathetic thing.

You are what you eat from your head to your feet.

AuthorMessage
Avatar

Morphbug

338. Posted:

WhiteKnight wrote:

Batman got things better. Cat woman may have been a femme fatalein some ways, but she was also a physically superior human with a far more pure moral code than even Batman. She was the equal of the male heroes and anti heroes, without needing to actually be a 'male character' or resort to stereotypical female 'weapons.'

Oh yeah, Catwoman is probably my favorite anti-hero.
She has had bad luck with her movies though.

@Aviator: Gotta love American translators in the 80's, they usually went crazy changing stuff without checking the game themselves.
It's funny because it would have been easier to hide someones gender in english than in japanese.

Edited on by Morphbug

Oh look! A Morphloggery.
Oh! eShop Gurus.

3DS Friend Code: 0173-1330-0080 | Nintendo Network ID: Abgarok

AuthorMessage
Avatar

Aviator

339. Posted:

thelastlemming wrote:

Aviator wrote:

thelastlemming wrote:

Basically what I'm saying is that it shouldn't matter who the avatar we are controlling is.

Then Nintendo should never have revealed her.

Samus could have stayed as a genderless character who kicks butt, but they revealed her a female and failed to do anything with it from there onwards.

Not to be facetious but, Samus was never genderless.
Maintaining Samus' character through the games was a success in that a strong female character came to the forefront. That I won't yield on.

I think we all agree that the bikini reveal in Metroid was the wrong way to introduce the character. However I don't agree that missteps like her inconsistent characterization in Other M and indeed the bathing suit have diminished her contribution as a female protagonist. The fact that we are having this discussion/argument is an encouraging sign to me that Samus has been and will continue to be a meaningful icon.

You are right, she was seen as male.

"As a last resort, the Federation Police have decided on this strategy: to send a
space hunter to penetrate the center of the fortress and destroy Mother Brain. The
space hunter chosen for this mission is Samus Aran. He is the greatest of all the
space hunters and has successfully completed numerous missions that everybody thought
were absolutely impossible. He is a cyborg: his entire body has been surgically
strengthened with robotics, giving him superpowers. Even the space pirates fear his
space suit, which can absorb any enemy's power. But his true form is shrouded
in mystery."
from the Metroid instruction manual

I was commenting on your whole it shouldn't matter who the avatar is. They didn't have to show her true form as being female. But rather they chose to, and haven't done anything to justify their choice of showing Samus to be female.

When you touch me I die,
just a little inside,
I wonder if
this could be love.
PSN: naviator_9

AuthorMessage
Avatar

OptometristLime

340. Posted:

Aviator wrote:

You are right, she was seen as male.

As a last resort, the Federation Police have decided on this strategy: to send a
space hunter to penetrate the center of the fortress and destroy Mother Brain. The
space hunter chosen for this mission is Samus Aran. He is the greatest of all the
space hunters and has successfully completed numerous missions that everybody thought
were absolutely impossible. He is a cyborg: his entire body has been surgically
strengthened with robotics, giving him superpowers. Even the space pirates fear his
space suit, which can absorb any enemy's power. But his true form is shrouded
in mystery.

from the Metroid instruction manual

Aviator wrote:

I was commenting on your whole it shouldn't matter who the avatar is. They didn't have to show her true form as being female. But rather they chose to, and haven't done anything to justify their choice of showing Samus to be female.

The fact that Nintendo chose a female character to take a leading role is progress, however stilted.

It's difficult to express why I feel Samus' character carries weight. Part of it is the double standard of judging her character so harshly, while ignoring that it's just plain cool to have a woman kicking butt. Somewhere there is a line between dismissing her gender as irrelevant and requiring that she exhibit non-masculine qualities.

Edited on by OptometristLime

Miyamoto on his desire to focus more on the (hard)core Nintendo fan.

[The casual] attitude is, ‘okay, I am the customer. You are supposed to entertain me.’ [...] and to me it’s kind of a pathetic thing.

You are what you eat from your head to your feet.

Sorry, this topic has been locked.