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Topic: Should Link be a girl?

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DudeSean

301. Posted:

Morphtroid wrote:

From what I have seen, Zelda seems to be modeled after a different kind of royalty; She's always taking hard decisions while acting calm and collected for the good of her kingdom. We almost never see her enjoying anything or doing things for herself.

Well, yes. But this was progressed over time. In the first few Zelda games she was just a helpless damsel in distress. It wasn't until Ocarina of Time that they started making Zelda a strong character. Which is obviously a change in the right direction. But they try to stay to the old formula, too. Because they believe that's what the fans want.

DudeSean

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OptometristLime

302. Posted:

DudeSean wrote:

As far as blaming Sakamoto for Other M, he's a co-creator of the series. He should be able to do whatever he wants with it.

Which is why if he screws up, the blame sits squarely on his shoulders.

CanisWolfred wrote:

Obviously you guys have been watching too much Anime. Maybe Link will photosythesis, too?.

You are what you eat from your head to your feet.

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Bankai

303. Posted:

V8_Ninja wrote:

WhiteKnight wrote:

Please note I am referring to the initial surprise of many with the original Metroid game when people playing it for the first time discovered at the end that Samus was female.

To all intents and purposes Samus' behaviour and the situations she finds herself within are stereotypically environments that men go be heroes within. This is not to say that a woman can't thrive within such environments in entertainment art (see: Aliens), but it IS to say that it is not coincidence that people initially assumed Samus was male.

And given that this is Nintendo we're talking about, the very same company that continues to greenlight 'save the princess' plot lines, I see absolutely no reason to give them the benefit of the doubt with Metroid and see it as a modern gender politics text. Samus is a female hero build from the ground up to appeal to men. Made sense when the only people playing games were men, but the one and only attempt to do something to fix the Samus character in the time since wasn't handled by Nintendo, and fell flat on its face anyway.

So, from what I can gather, you're saying that Samus is not a good female character/role model because she doesn't express what are culturally considered female traits? If I'm wrong, please correct me.

No. Samus is not a good female character because until Other M she was a man with a woman's voice and after Other M she was a submissive little girl.

How hard would it have been to copy Ripley's character from Aliens? Everything else about the series is a carbon copy.

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DudeSean

304. Posted:

WhiteKnight wrote:

No. Samus is not a good female character because until Other M she was a man with a woman's voice and after Other M she was a submissive little girl.

What the...? Samus was never a man and in Other M she was a human being with emotions.

DudeSean

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Bankai

305. Posted:

DudeSean wrote:

WhiteKnight wrote:

No. Samus is not a good female character because until Other M she was a man with a woman's voice and after Other M she was a submissive little girl.

What the...? Samus was never a man and in Other M she was a human being with emotions.

The sound you're hearing is the point flying over your head.

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Aviator

306. Posted:

WhiteKnight wrote:

How hard would it have been to copy Ripley's character from Aliens? Everything else about the series is a carbon copy.

Space pirates jumping out of peoples stomachs?

I would buy that in a heart beat.

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Bankai

307. Posted:

Aviator wrote:

WhiteKnight wrote:

How hard would it have been to copy Ripley's character from Aliens? Everything else about the series is a carbon copy.

Space pirates jumping out of peoples stomachs?

I would buy that in a heart beat.

they already do the face hugging bit, so why the heck not?

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DudeSean

308. Posted:

WhiteKnight wrote:

The sound you're hearing is the point flying over your head.

How about instead of being a condescending jerk, you tell me what your point was?

DudeSean

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kkslider5552000

309. Posted:

dude if you have so little idea of "good writing" that you can still defend Other M's characterization without a hint of "well I know it sucks but I like it regardless", you've already lost. Doesn't help that you're like 0-20 in terms of internet debates. Also at least I'm semi-clever at pointing out Waltzelf's sillyness.

Edited on by kkslider5552000

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KaiserGX

310. Posted:

Anyone here played Super Metroid or Fusion?
Untitled

Edited on by KaiserGX

Kachou on!

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Aviator

311. Posted:

DudeSean wrote:

WhiteKnight wrote:

No. Samus is not a good female character because until Other M she was a man with a woman's voice and after Other M she was a submissive little girl.

What the...? Samus was never a man and in Other M she was a human being with emotions.

But she wasn't at the start identified as a woman. She was identified as male as it was perceived that her role was a mans role.

For the submissive girl thing, I think Waltz is referring to how Samus is seen to be a puppet to Adam.

@Kaiser You have to remember that Fusion takes place after Adam sacrifices himself instead of Samus. The respect may be from Other M, how she chooses to follow Adam's orders though.

Edited on by Aviator

[strong]When you touch me I die,
just a little inside,
I wonder if
this could be love.[/strong]
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Bankai

312. Posted:

DudeSean wrote:

WhiteKnight wrote:

The sound you're hearing is the point flying over your head.

How about instead of being a condescending jerk, you tell me what your point was?

Because you seemed to think that when I say "Samus is a man" you think I'm being literal.

She's a male character. Having a couple of digital polygons in the chest and long hair doesn't magically make her a she. The characterisation is male. If the film industry has discovered ways to create strong female characters that are still recognisably female, I see no reason that the games industry can't do the same.

This discussion is going to all kinds of silly places, as is usual when you've got people without any learning in gender studies trying to argue the topic. It reminds me of the time that I had an argument with a dude that thought that a chainmail bikini on a female barbarian in a RPG is totally appropriate and feminist because the female is a "strong character."

Edited on by Bankai

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Morphbug

313. Posted:

I'd like to think that she was always a sensitive family-needed person but kept all the inner monologues and horrors to herself in previous games.

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KaiserGX

314. Posted:

Going to sleep now though. Just wanted to throw some logs in the cabin.
Untitled

Edited on by KaiserGX

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skywake

315. Posted:

WhiteKnight wrote:

She's a male character. Having a couple of digital polygons in the chest and long hair doesn't magically make her a she. The characterisation is male. If the film industry has discovered ways to create strong female characters that are still recognisably female, I see no reason that the games industry can't do the same.

Which brings us back to my original point. What difference would making Link a girl actually make? The gender of the central character is a non-issue and changing it for the sake of changing it is tokenism. What needs to happen, and I would argue has with Zelda, is an improvement of female characters in general. They don't need to change the basic plot or who is the main character they just need to improve the interactions.

Metroid isn't any different to any other game really but the fact that Samus wears an armoured suit changes nothing. Her wearing a suit makes sense given the plot because she's a bounty hunter in space. If anything is sexist about Metroid it's the way that they insist on having her end up in Lycra. Nobody expects to see Master Chief in skin tight clothing at any point through Halo... why should that be a thing in Metroid?

Edited on by skywake

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Bankai

316. Posted:

KaiserGX wrote:

Going to sleep now though. Just wanted to throw some logs in the cabin.
Untitled

Just out of interest, which side are you actually on here?

Because the last to screenshots you've posted are perfect examples of the points I'm making - using a line or two of text to say "I'm the submissive woman type, but it's OK for me to be that way because the story says I need to," hardly positions Samus as a character with any real power or independent thought.

Contrast to Ripley from the Alien films. There was a woman who had powerful maternal instincts and other positive womanly traits, and yet she also disobeyed orders whenever it suited her to be the hero, was a leader rather than a follower, and demonstratively intelligent. It saddens me when people try and compare the two characters, because Ripley is a feminist icon, but Samus is anything but.

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OptometristLime

317. Posted:

kkslider5552000 wrote:

Also at least I'm semi-clever at pointing out Waltzelf's sillyness.

Self-serving much?
Unless you are trying to protect our friend from a train wreck, I can appreciate that.

I still haven't heard a coherent argument from you Waltz, on why exactly Samus is a man. And I can say that without a hint of irony when you say stuff like:

WhiteKnight wrote:

She's a male character.

The fact that the person in the suit is some what "gender ambiguous" doesn't make the role inherently male. Maybe you would rather leave it open as to what exactly could entail a more feminine protagonist, and don't wan to go into details. But I don't see how this leads us away from being sexist, after all now we are saying that being a strong, confident, unflinching defender of the galaxy precludes the role from being female. To me that's a worse place than where we started.

CanisWolfred wrote:

Obviously you guys have been watching too much Anime. Maybe Link will photosythesis, too?.

You are what you eat from your head to your feet.

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skywake

318. Posted:

Apparently Samus is a male character because she takes orders from her superiors...........

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Bankai

319. Posted:

skywake wrote:

WhiteKnight wrote:

She's a male character. Having a couple of digital polygons in the chest and long hair doesn't magically make her a she. The characterisation is male. If the film industry has discovered ways to create strong female characters that are still recognisably female, I see no reason that the games industry can't do the same.

Which brings us back to my original point. What difference would making Link a girl actually make? The gender of the central character is a non-issue and changing it for the sake of changing it is tokenism. What needs to happen, and I would argue has with Zelda, is an improvement of female characters in general. They don't need to change the basic plot or who is the main character they just need to improve the interactions.

Metroid isn't any different to any other game really but the fact that Samus wears an armoured suit changes nothing. Her wearing a suit makes sense given the plot because she's a bounty hunter in space. If anything is sexist about Metroid it's the way that they insist on having her end up in Lycra. Nobody expect to see Master Chief in skin tight clothing at any point through Halo... why should that be a thing in Metroid?

To go all the way back to the original point I was making, I simply said I wouldn't have minded if they made a female Link. I never suggested that it would be the one and only way to improve the gender representation of the Zelda series.

Why couldn't Nintendo do a co-op style game where Link and Zelda explored and worked together? Something like Hunter: Demon Forge, but Nintendofied (and therefore playable)? Both characters would have a different set of abilities, and as long as Nintendo refrained from giving Zelda a frying pan, and a set of abilities equally useful in utility as Link, then it would be a really great way to mix up the series to boot.

Or, here's an even better one - make Link a NPC, and Zelda the playable character. Link could still pop up in the story from time to time, but Zelda could be the one exploring the dungeons and fighting the bosses.

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Bankai

320. Posted:

skywake wrote:

Apparently Samus is a male character because she takes orders from her superiors...........

No. She's subservient to her superiors. There's a difference.

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