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Topic: Should Link be a girl?

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OptometristLime

281. Posted:

WhiteKnight wrote:

Gender issues in art is important. That is why I care. I care less about people that want mysogyny to remain in a game series because either a) that's how it's always been or, worse, b) they like it that way.

So who specifically should enact change:
Nintendo for inventing a popcorn storyline, one of the most basic since time began, and sticking with it?
Gamers who take no specific interest in the gender of the protagonist as long as the game is fun, and whom might even list Peach as their all time favorite female character (or Samus)?

TLDR: can't we have a discussion without put downs, arrogant remarks, and finger pointing? How the hell can we challenge stereotypes when we can't even overcome the most basic human tendencies. :/

Edited on by OptometristLime

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Banker-Style

282. Posted:

Poor old Link will have to have his sword chopped off.

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Bankai

283. Posted:

thelastlemming wrote:

WhiteKnight wrote:

Gender issues in art is important. That is why I care. I care less about people that want mysogyny to remain in a game series because either a) that's how it's always been or, worse, b) they like it that way.

So who specifically should enact change:
Nintendo for inventing a popcorn storyline, one of the most basic since time began, and sticking with it?
Gamers who take no specific interest in the gender of the protagonist as long as the game is fun, and whom might even list Peach as their all time favorite female character (or Samus)?

TLDR: can't we have a discussion without put downs, arrogant remarks, and finger pointing? How the hell can we challenge stereotypes when we can't even overcome the most basic human tendencies. :/

The first step in fixing a problem is recognising that it exists.

Given that there are people that are doing the usual fanboy thing and having a cry at the slightest criticism of their favourite games, as though somehow it's a personal insult, I would say that those few of us trying to raise awareness here are doing something quite important, actually.

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Banker-Style

284. Posted:

Link has 3 mothers,and 2 fathers.

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moomoo

285. Posted:

WhiteKnight wrote:

moomoo wrote:

WhiteKnight wrote:

I would have hoped that the people arguing against an effort for Nintendo to modernise its approach to gender would not be making the old 'ignore it, it's not really a problem' argument that has been the entire point of feminism for decades.

And for the record if Luigi being captured rather than Peach would not change the Mario games in any way, then it's a pretty damning reflection on Nintendo's gender policies that it's still Peach being captured. Every single time.

Three words: Super Princess Peach

I'm going to assume you're intelligent enough to be joking about that, because you've given me no reason to think otherwise so far.

Thank you for giving me that much credit. :p

Now for the record, though I do feel that sexist tropes exist in Mario's main adventures, I don't feel like they're offensive. I'm able to laugh at how ludicrous it is that Peach is still being captured again and again by Bowser and doing very little to prevent such events from occuring repeatedly.
ONe movie I'm quite fond of is one by the name of Undercover Brother. It's a darn sexist comedy, pulling up all the stops at showing nearly every black stereotype out there, as well as quite a few white ones. However, I, nor anyone else I've met who has seen the movie, has been offended by it. It isn't treating itself seriously, so the viewer just sits back and laughs at everything going on. It's not that they don't care about racism, or that they can't hate it despite laughing at a movie that takes a comedic look on the subject. I believe the case is the same with Mario games.

Edited on by moomoo

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skywake

286. Posted:

WhiteKnight wrote:

Gender issues in art is important. That is why I care. I care less about people that want mysogyny to remain in a game series because either a) that's how it's always been or, worse, b) they like it that way.

Nintendo is a nostalgia machine. The reason they keep having these plots is because that's the storylines they had in the original games when there wasn't much of a story to tell. Saying that people are being sexist through apathy on storylines in Nintendo games ignores the nostalgia completely. It's the same reason why Donkey Kong keeps having his Bananas stolen or why Pokemon always involves a quest to become the Pokemon champion.

WhiteKnight wrote:

Given that there are people that are doing the usual fanboy thing and having a cry at the slightest criticism of their favourite games, as though somehow it's a personal insult, I would say that those few of us trying to raise awareness here are doing something quite important, actually.

Get off your high horse. Your opinion is only as valid as your ability to argue it. Given that your instinctive reaction to people saying "why?" is to call them crying fanboys I'd say your ability to argue your point is weak. So excuse me if I don't value your point of view here very highly.

Edited on by skywake

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Mickey

287. Posted:

...I'd play it. We also need a Female Red Power Ranger

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skywake

288. Posted:

and I would have hoped that the feminism movement had moved past tokenism. It would be better if Zelda continued the push for more strong female characters in games while maintaining the same basic storyline for nostalgic reasons. In Paper Mario games for example they make fun of "Princess getting kidnapped" thing by making Bowser look pathetic. That's worth more than simply swapping the gender of the protagonist in the hope that it'll magically make the game pro-feminisim..........

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LittleKing

289. Posted:

k8sMum wrote:

@WMetabble_King What I dislike is when games make a character female, just for the sake of being female, and put her into stereotypical male roles. Over, and over, and over, just for the sake of it. Can't remember what game it was I played recently, but every time a high ranking soldier was shown, they were almost always female. Wow, that's not sexist, making 99% of them female just for the sake of being female. Not at all.

out of curiosity, how often have you played games where this has happened? you mention one game that you cannot remember the name of where it did, but are there really many others out there?

I dislike when games do that kind of thing constantly; I did not mean to imply there was a huge amount that did. It's not just with the sexes, but also with races, etc. Every once in a while I play a game (or watch a movie, or view any other form of media) where I get the feeling they only made someone a certain sex, or a certain race to try and counter sexism/racism. It seems counter intuitive.

Edited on by LittleKing

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Neoproteus

290. Posted:

Metabble_King wrote:

k8sMum wrote:

@WMetabble_King What I dislike is when games make a character female, just for the sake of being female, and put her into stereotypical male roles. Over, and over, and over, just for the sake of it. Can't remember what game it was I played recently, but every time a high ranking soldier was shown, they were almost always female. Wow, that's not sexist, making 99% of them female just for the sake of being female. Not at all.

out of curiosity, how often have you played games where this has happened? you mention one game that you cannot remember the name of where it did, but are there really many others out there?

I dislike when games do that kind of thing constantly; I did not mean to imply there was a huge amount that did. It's not just with the sexes, but also with races, etc. Every once in a while I play a game (or watch a movie, or view any other form of media) where I get the feeling they only made someone a certain sex, or a certain race to try and counter sexism/racism. It seems counter intuitive.

I actually know what you're talking about, but I find it a lot more frequently in Anime than in Games...

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Morpheel

291. Posted:

@Luigi in Distress thing: Wait, didn't Luigi spent a big part of Super Mario 3D Land kidnapped without Mario even noticing until he was informed by mail?

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edhe

292. Posted:

Lollipop Chainsaw was the perfect example of a feminist game - female protagonists and all, but poor Nick was reduced to the status of a key chain hanging off juliet's arse. Also, Juliet was objectified to astronomical levels.

I wouldn't cite that as they type of game that I'd like to see more of. I'd like to see true equality, ergo a Super Mario Bros game where Peach isn't kidnapped or a Zelda game where Zelda works together with (a male) Link to save hyrule. Ideally, you should be able to control Zelda at crucial points - not like in that Paper Mario where you help Peach potter about in Bowser's captivity.

Also, Link is kind of an empty vessel. He's never really had a personality.

So on second thoughts, and in summary, Link should be male, but Zelda should play a greater role in the games.

Edited on by edhe

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Bankai

293. Posted:

edhe wrote:

Lollipop Chainsaw was the perfect example of a feminist game - female protagonists and all, but poor Nick was reduced to the status of a key chain hanging off juliet's arse. Also, Juliet was objectified to astronomical levels.

I wouldn't cite that as they type of game that I'd like to see more of. I'd like to see true equality, ergo a Super Mario Bros game where Peach isn't kidnapped or a Zelda game where Zelda works together with (a male) Link to save hyrule. Ideally, you should be able to control Zelda at crucial points - not like in that Paper Mario where you help Peach potter about in Bowser's captivity.

Also, Link is kind of an empty vessel. He's never really had a personality.

So on second thoughts, and in summary, Link should be male, but Zelda should play a greater role in the games.

Re lollipop chainsaw: Juliet is positioned well above the objectification and is not herself a part of it.

The game goes out of its way to take the piss of anyone who does
objectify the Juliet character. It is precisely what we need to see more of.

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ClockworkMario

294. Posted:

edhe wrote:

a Zelda game where Zelda works together with (a male) Link to save hyrule. Ideally, you should be able to control Zelda at crucial points

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Edited on by ClockworkMario

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skywake

295. Posted:

Also Midna.....

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Adam

296. Posted:

skywake wrote:

and I would have hoped that the feminism movement had moved past tokenism. It would be better if Zelda continued the push for more strong female characters in games while maintaining the same basic storyline for nostalgic reasons. In Paper Mario games for example they make fun of "Princess getting kidnapped" thing by making Bowser look pathetic. That's worth more than simply swapping the gender of the protagonist in the hope that it'll magically make the game pro-feminisim..........

That's more the way to go about it, I feel. I brought up the Zelda thing earlier. It'd be more interesting for the story and actually build on what they're already doing rather than ignoring the series' history for a cheap ploy.

And I don't remember if I mentioned this earlier, but there is absolutely nothing sexist about Zelda being captured. She is generally portrayed as a child at the time, and Link is usually watching helplessly or makes some completely ineffectual attempt at rescue. This is not portraying her as weak because she is a woman. She and everyone around her are helpless because they are unprepared. She is targeted for story reasons, being of royal lineage and having some importance with the triforce. Ganon ignores Link because he is too stupid to realize that though the hero of time can come from any family, he is always the blond elf guy in the green tunic. Guy needs to get his act together if he ever wants to succeed in life.

A Zeldalike game with a female lead would be fun. But to call it Zelda and call her Link would be inaccurate. They have been building the story for a quarter of a century and that's not how it goes.

Edited on by Adam

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DudeSean

297. Posted:

Peach and Zelda are princesses. I'm pretty sure princesses are raised to be spoiled, not to be heroes. So I'd say that's more of a cultural thing than a gender thing.

As far as blaming Sakamoto for Other M, he's a co-creator of the series. He should be able to do whatever he wants with it.

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GamecubeMan

298. Posted:

This thread is pointless and should be locked U.U

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Morpheel

299. Posted:

DudeSean wrote:

Peach and Zelda are princesses. I'm pretty sure princesses are raised to be spoiled, not to be heroes. So I'd say that's more of a cultural thing than a gender thing.

As far as blaming Sakamoto for Other M, he's a co-creator of the series. He should be able to do whatever he wants with it.

From what I have seen, Zelda seems to be modeled after a different kind of royalty; She's always taking hard decisions while acting calm and collected for the good of her kingdom. We almost never see her enjoying anything or doing things for herself.

I like Peach, but Zelda is a far better princess.

Edited on by Morpheel

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V8_Ninja

300. Posted:

WhiteKnight wrote:

Please note I am referring to the initial surprise of many with the original Metroid game when people playing it for the first time discovered at the end that Samus was female.

To all intents and purposes Samus' behaviour and the situations she finds herself within are stereotypically environments that men go be heroes within. This is not to say that a woman can't thrive within such environments in entertainment art (see: Aliens), but it IS to say that it is not coincidence that people initially assumed Samus was male.

And given that this is Nintendo we're talking about, the very same company that continues to greenlight 'save the princess' plot lines, I see absolutely no reason to give them the benefit of the doubt with Metroid and see it as a modern gender politics text. Samus is a female hero build from the ground up to appeal to men. Made sense when the only people playing games were men, but the one and only attempt to do something to fix the Samus character in the time since wasn't handled by Nintendo, and fell flat on its face anyway.

So, from what I can gather, you're saying that Samus is not a good female character/role model because she doesn't express what are culturally considered female traits? If I'm wrong, please correct me.

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