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Topic: Should Link be a girl?

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V8_Ninja

261. Posted:

WhiteKnight wrote:

I like how people use Samus as an example of a 'strong female character' but conveniently forget that most of the time Samus pretends to Be a male character.

Dressing a female in men's gear and having her act like a man and then at the very end of the game strip her down to a bikini and yell 'surprise! She's a girl!' is so offensively sexist I'm going to reemphasise me first point:

Gender studies needs to be mandatory at school because this thread is proof that most people have no clue. At all.

Having specific traits does not mean that a character is acting like a specific gender. True, there has been a long list of traits that have been associated with genders, but that doesn't mean that a headstrong female is "Acting Like A Male" simply because the prejudice is that males are headstrong.

Also, Samus' Power Suit is not "Men's Gear". It was created specifically for Samus by an ancient race of galactic bird-people.

EDIT: I do agree that the "Let's strip her to her underwear!" ending of Metroid is a bit sexist.

Edited on by V8_Ninja

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Bankai

262. Posted:

Please note I am referring to the initial surprise of many with the original Metroid game when people playing it for the first time discovered at the end that Samus was female.

To all intents and purposes Samus' behaviour and the situations she finds herself within are stereotypically environments that men go be heroes within. This is not to say that a woman can't thrive within such environments in entertainment art (see: Aliens), but it IS to say that it is not coincidence that people initially assumed Samus was male.

And given that this is Nintendo we're talking about, the very same company that continues to greenlight 'save the princess' plot lines, I see absolutely no reason to give them the benefit of the doubt with Metroid and see it as a modern gender politics text. Samus is a female hero build from the ground up to appeal to men. Made sense when the only people playing games were men, but the one and only attempt to do something to fix the Samus character in the time since wasn't handled by Nintendo, and fell flat on its face anyway.

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Aviator

263. Posted:

WhiteKnight wrote:

Made sense when the only people playing games were men, but the one and only attempt to do something to fix the Samus character in the time since wasn't handled by Nintendo, and fell flat on its face anyway.

Which is what I hate most about Other M. Although I love it for the whole Ridley-Samus thing, as it was the only attempt to move away from the overused mother motif throughout the entire game. I didn't really mind the whole Adam authority part of it. At least it is addressing some real-life concerns of society, the treatment of women. There is a lot of powerful messages that Other M could have made, but they still reduce Samus and assert Adam. He shoots her in the back then walks off without saying why he did so. There are some arguements that's it's a clashing of heads, Adam is being Adam, but Samus is trying to apologise for the rejecting of his authority (which would be a far better story than what went on in the Bottle Ship (or whatever it's called)).Samus, is probably the most important avenue for Nintendo to address the women's portrayal in games. Especially considering before she got into her bikini she was considered male.

Nintendo should probably work on addressing the problems with Samus, before they start making Link female.
or at least stop the damsel in distress nonsense. if peach gets kidnapped in Paper Mario, let's hope that they do something useful with it, because her capture in bowsers castle/xnaut base is the only positives female thing they do with her, except for Super Princess Peach... i think.

Edited on by Aviator

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Adam

264. Posted:

Team Ninja did not make Other M on their own. Sakomoto from Nintendo is the one responsible for the story, so he is responsible for its supposed attempt at "fixing" her.

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Geonjaha

265. Posted:

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skywake

266. Posted:

People complaining about the way Peach is kidnapped in Mario miss the appeal of Mario. It's not about plot it's about jumping on goombas. You could, and in parts of Super Mario Galaxy they did, have Luigi kidnapped and it'd be the same game. It really doesn't matter.

Complaining about the same in Zelda ignores the fact that most of the modern Zeldas have had a much more useful princess. The OoT Zelda was hardly a damsel in distress and the Skyward Sword and Twilight Princess Zeldas were even less so. If you think something needs to change there I'm not sure exactly what you would change to make it more modern or a proper "modern gender politics text". Making Link a girl wouldn't do it that's for sure.

Metriod...... ignoring the cheap trick in the original I don't see what the problem is. You've got the same hero you have in all the other space hero games but this time the person behind the helmet is a girl. It was gaming on the NES, all of the story telling techniques they had were as subtle as a bullet train.

Edited on by skywake

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ClockworkMario

267. Posted:

skywake wrote:

People complaining about the way Peach is kidnapped in Mario miss the appeal of Mario. It's not about plot it's about jumping on goombas. You could, and in parts of Super Mario Galaxy they did, have Luigi kidnapped and it'd be the same game. It really doesn't matter.

This.

If we could finally end this "sexism" debate and bring this topic back on rails it would be great.

I don't think they should make Link female. It wouldn't really bring anything new to the table or change anything significantly. On top of that IMO he's always been like an empty canvas that the players can fill with their version of Link. Literally a "Link" between the game and the player.

Edited on by ClockworkMario

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Capt_N

268. Posted:

InternetBowser wrote:

skywake wrote:

People complaining about the way Peach is kidnapped in Mario miss the appeal of Mario. It's not about plot it's about jumping on goombas. You could, and in parts of Super Mario Galaxy they did, have Luigi kidnapped and it'd be the same game. It really doesn't matter.

This.

If we could finally end this "sexism" debate and bring this topic back on rails it would be great.

I don't think they should make Link female. It wouldn't really bring anything new to the table or change anything significantly. On top of that IMO he's always been like an empty canvas that the players can fill with their version of Link. Literally a "Link" between the game and the player.

Interesting, but not unheard of, perspective of Link.

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LittleKing

269. Posted:

skywake wrote:

People complaining about the way Peach is kidnapped in Mario miss the appeal of Mario. It's not about plot it's about jumping on goombas. You could, and in parts of Super Mario Galaxy they did, have Luigi kidnapped and it'd be the same game. It really doesn't matter.

Complaining about the same in Zelda ignores the fact that most of the modern Zeldas have had a much more useful princess. The OoT Zelda was hardly a damsel in distress and the Skyward Sword and Twilight Princess Zeldas were even less so. If you think something needs to change there I'm not sure exactly what you would change to make it more modern or a proper "modern gender politics text". Making Link a girl wouldn't do it that's for sure.

Metriod...... ignoring the cheap trick in the original I don't see what the problem is. You've got the same hero you have in all the other space hero games but this time the person behind the helmet is a girl. It was gaming on the NES, all of the story telling techniques they had were as subtle as a bullet train.

I agree. I don't think any of the current series need to change. Most Nintendo games aren't really about the story, anyways. The Legend of Zelda is an exception, and I think they did a good job building Zelda's character. Sheik was probably the coolest character in OoT tbh.

What I dislike is when games make a character female, just for the sake of being female, and put her into stereotypical male roles. Over, and over, and over, just for the sake of it. Can't remember what game it was I played recently, but every time a high ranking soldier was shown, they were almost always female. Wow, that's not sexist, making 99% of them female just for the sake of being female. Not at all. :p


Also, yeah, since Link is a silent hero, I doubt it would change the story much. I still think it'd be a great time to switch up the gameplay a little, though.

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Bankai

270. Posted:

I would have hoped that the people arguing against an effort for Nintendo to modernise its approach to gender would not be making the old 'ignore it, it's not really a problem' argument that has been the entire point of feminism for decades.

And for the record if Luigi being captured rather than Peach would not change the Mario games in any way, then it's a pretty damning reflection on Nintendo's gender policies that it's still Peach being captured. Every single time.

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OptometristLime

271. Posted:

I don't follow, but then I can't understand why this is a topic you take so personally.

Right or wrong your theme seems to be that the majority of posters in this thread are willfully ignorant, and through apathy are degrading women. What I think you'll find to be the case, is that people who like Mario games or like Samus' character in Metroid actually LIKE the story lines and persistent characters. You are our "White Knight" so I would expect you to champion causes, but that is preventing you from advancing the discourse.

Honestly the only perspective I care about initially is that of actual female gamers. If they made a case for or against the current trends in Nintendo games, we might have something to go on. Instead we are choking the issue until it's just one more dead end thread.

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Bankai

272. Posted:

thelastlemming wrote:

I don't follow, but then I can't understand why this is a topic you take so personally.

Right or wrong your theme seems to be that the majority of posters in this thread are willfully ignorant, and through apathy are degrading women. What I think you'll find to be the case, is that people who like Mario games or like Samus' character in Metroid actually LIKE the story lines and persistent characters. You are our "White Knight" so I would expect you to champion causes, but that is preventing you from advancing the discourse.

Honestly the only perspective I care about initially is that of actual female gamers. If they made a case for or against the current trends in Nintendo games, we might have something to go on. Instead we are choking the issue until it's just one more dead end thread.

Gender issues in art is important. That is why I care. I care less about people that want mysogyny to remain in a game series because either a) that's how it's always been or, worse, b) they like it that way.

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WesCash

273. Posted:

WhiteKnight wrote:

I would have hoped that the people arguing against an effort for Nintendo to modernise its approach to gender would not be making the old 'ignore it, it's not really a problem' argument that has been the entire point of feminism for decades.

And for the record if Luigi being captured rather than Peach would not change the Mario games in any way, then it's a pretty damning reflection on Nintendo's gender policies that it's still Peach being captured. Every single time.

I really don't think the decision to have Peach be captured in every Mario game reflects at all on Nintendo's gender policies. I would be surprised if there were any discussion among the developers about the fact that maybe it isn't politically correct to have Mario save Peach all of the time.

I think it's more a case of "if it isn't broke, don't fix it". It's not like anyone complains about it.

Besides, Peach isn't always a helpless princess. If I pick Peach while playing Smash Bros or Mario Tennis, my opponents know I'm about to wipe the floor with them. :D

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Bankai

274. Posted:

WesCash wrote:

WhiteKnight wrote:

I would have hoped that the people arguing against an effort for Nintendo to modernise its approach to gender would not be making the old 'ignore it, it's not really a problem' argument that has been the entire point of feminism for decades.

And for the record if Luigi being captured rather than Peach would not change the Mario games in any way, then it's a pretty damning reflection on Nintendo's gender policies that it's still Peach being captured. Every single time.

I really don't think the decision to have Peach be captured in every Mario game reflects at all on Nintendo's gender policies. I would be surprised if there were any discussion among the developers about the fact that maybe it isn't politically correct to have Mario save Peach all of the time.

I think it's more a case of "if it isn't broke, don't fix it". It's not like anyone complains about it.

Besides, Peach isn't always a helpless princess. If I pick Peach while playing Smash Bros or Mario Tennis, my opponents know I'm about to wipe the floor with them. :D

Apathy is part of the problem. If Nintendo isn't having these conversations it reflects poorly on Nintendo's gender policies.

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k8sMum

275. Posted:

@WMetabble_King What I dislike is when games make a character female, just for the sake of being female, and put her into stereotypical male roles. Over, and over, and over, just for the sake of it. Can't remember what game it was I played recently, but every time a high ranking soldier was shown, they were almost always female. Wow, that's not sexist, making 99% of them female just for the sake of being female. Not at all.

out of curiosity, how often have you played games where this has happened? you mention one game that you cannot remember the name of where it did, but are there really many others out there?

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kyuubikid213

276. Posted:

This is a pointless thread.

The "Hero" title is reserved for the strong, outgoing, brave lead character in a game. So that would make Samus a strong female role that isn't sexist, right? WRONG! She has to have some kind of feminism to her to make her a strong female character.

Okay then, let's make a female character a lead role with feminine traits (just for lack of a better example, let's use Samus again, but this time from Other M.) Great, we've got it now, right? WRONG! She's not strong in that game, she's overly dependent on Adam for everything.

Whatever, let's just go back to Metroid Prime Samus where she didn't take nothin' from no one. Now she's--WRONG! She's dressed up in male armor-- But what about the breast-plate--WRONG!! WRRONNNGG!! Her figure is sexist.

I mean, what the hell do you want?! There ARE strong female roles in gaming, but you write them off as sexist because they demonstrate feminine traits, but the ones that don't aren't strong feminine roles because they aren't feminine enough.

Besides, this is about Link being a girl or not, not sexism and how ABSOLUTELY NONE OF US UNDERSTAND WHAT THE HELL WE'RE SAYING. Yes, even you WhiteKnight. Honestly though, the five people here taking the argument seriously are okay, but the other people are ridiculous.

What if I made a racism thread because Link isn't a Black main character? That'd be pretty damn ridiculous, now wouldn't it?

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WesCash

277. Posted:

WhiteKnight wrote:

Apathy is part of the problem. If Nintendo isn't having these conversations it reflects poorly on Nintendo's gender policies.

Not so much apathy as genuine unawareness. The only way topics like "should Link be a girl" will come up is when more females are involved in video game production and consumption. In a male dominated media, "gender policy" isn't really a concern. Obviously, demographics are changing and it will be interesting to see what (if anything) Nintendo does differently.

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moomoo

278. Posted:

WhiteKnight wrote:

I would have hoped that the people arguing against an effort for Nintendo to modernise its approach to gender would not be making the old 'ignore it, it's not really a problem' argument that has been the entire point of feminism for decades.

And for the record if Luigi being captured rather than Peach would not change the Mario games in any way, then it's a pretty damning reflection on Nintendo's gender policies that it's still Peach being captured. Every single time.

Three words: Super Princess Peach

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Bankai

279. Posted:

kyuubikid213 wrote:

This is a pointless thread.

The "Hero" title is reserved for the strong, outgoing, brave lead character in a game. So that would make Samus a strong female role that isn't sexist, right? WRONG! She has to have some kind of feminism to her to make her a strong female character.

Okay then, let's make a female character a lead role with feminine traits (just for lack of a better example, let's use Samus again, but this time from Other M.) Great, we've got it now, right? WRONG! She's not strong in that game, she's overly dependent on Adam for everything.

Whatever, let's just go back to Metroid Prime Samus where she didn't take nothin' from no one. Now she's--WRONG! She's dressed up in male armor-- But what about the breast-plate--WRONG!! WRRONNNGG!! Her figure is sexist.

I mean, what the hell do you want?! There ARE strong female roles in gaming, but you write them off as sexist because they demonstrate feminine traits, but the ones that don't aren't strong feminine roles because they aren't feminine enough.

Besides, this is about Link being a girl or not, not sexism and how ABSOLUTELY NONE OF US UNDERSTAND WHAT THE HELL WE'RE SAYING. Yes, even you WhiteKnight. Honestly though, the five people here taking the argument seriously are okay, but the other people are ridiculous.

What if I made a racism thread because Link isn't a Black main character? That'd be pretty damn ridiculous, now wouldn't it?

And yet Suda managed to make a game staring a cheerleader in a oversexed high school a stronger feminist character than Nintendo's entire game library.

It's actually not that had to do. It's all about context, see.

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Bankai

280. Posted:

moomoo wrote:

WhiteKnight wrote:

I would have hoped that the people arguing against an effort for Nintendo to modernise its approach to gender would not be making the old 'ignore it, it's not really a problem' argument that has been the entire point of feminism for decades.

And for the record if Luigi being captured rather than Peach would not change the Mario games in any way, then it's a pretty damning reflection on Nintendo's gender policies that it's still Peach being captured. Every single time.

Three words: Super Princess Peach

I'm going to assume you're intelligent enough to be joking about that, because you've given me no reason to think otherwise so far.

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