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Topic: Should Link be a girl?

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Bankai

121. Posted:

Not every thing has to challenge some sort of deep social view, or gender roles in this case.

Why not? Zelda is an important franchise. The potential is there for a Zelda game to make a useful contribution to society, rather than give some random nerds a couple of hours of meaningless entertainment.

Games are art. It's time for games developers to start behaving like artists.

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Aviator

122. Posted:

That's why they changed DOA5.

They made fighting art. :P

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WildMan

123. Posted:

WhiteKnight wrote:

Not every thing has to challenge some sort of deep social view, or gender roles in this case.

Why not? Zelda is an important franchise. The potential is there for a Zelda game to make a useful contribution to society, rather than give some random nerds a couple of hours of meaningless entertainment.

Games are art. It's time for games developers to start behaving like artists.

While I like what you have to say, when I play games I try to escape from the real world. Not be involved in political issues..

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Morphbug

124. Posted:

Aviator wrote:

So the same character appears in all of the Zelda games?

No, but it would seem spirits and reincarnations are gender-locked in this specific universe (or at least the ones of these 3 characters).

Also, as far as we know, the only male prince in the entire series is the traitor who almost killled Zelda in Zelda II.

However... If Zelda is always the same "spirit", then how can there be 2 Zeldas at once? (The one from the first game and the one Link revives) O.o
This series is too confusing. And you guys worry about things like this.

Edited on by Morphbug

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Bankai

125. Posted:

That's why they changed DOA5.

They made fighting art. :p

Quiet, Midnight.

I'm making a serious point here. My desire for Lei Fang to jiggle like a fish out of water is very different from me recognising the need for game developers to stand up and take some social responsibility for their actions. :P

While I like what you have to say, when I play games I try to escape from the real world. Not be involved in political issues..

It's possible to be entertained while also being challenged.

Lollipop Chainsaw is a brilliant feminist text. It's also brilliant fun.

Edited on by Bankai

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WildMan

126. Posted:

@whiteknight
I suppose, good point.

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Norfair

127. Posted:

Making Link a girl is all fun and games until the fan art starts.

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scrubbyscum999

128. Posted:

WhiteKnight wrote:

Not every thing has to challenge some sort of deep social view, or gender roles in this case.

Why not? Zelda is an important franchise. The potential is there for a Zelda game to make a useful contribution to society, rather than give some random nerds a couple of hours of meaningless entertainment.

Games are art. It's time for games developers to start behaving like artists.

I am sure there is an opportunity for many games to challenge conventional knowledge that is wrong. However, I don't feel Zelda is the right serious to do that. It is an extremely fantasy game that is not very serious in nature the first place. It is very much in the vain of the "traditional story". I still fail to see why making Link female is now so important all of a sudden. If they want to promote women as powerful, why don't they make another franchise, not mess with a franchise that is already established. Again, when you establish an iconic character or even characters in general, it is not the common practice to just start flipping sexes to make some vague point about gender roles in society. I love philosophy, I love challenging society's views. However, there is a time and place for everything and Zelda is certainly not the place. I think anyone who has seen my signature knows I am not afraid to express unpopular viewpoints, but you just don't randomly bring it in out of nowhere in an unfitting situation.

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Bankai

129. Posted:

Trainer_DJ wrote:

WhiteKnight wrote:

Not every thing has to challenge some sort of deep social view, or gender roles in this case.

Why not? Zelda is an important franchise. The potential is there for a Zelda game to make a useful contribution to society, rather than give some random nerds a couple of hours of meaningless entertainment.

Games are art. It's time for games developers to start behaving like artists.

I am sure there is an opportunity for many games to challenge conventional knowledge that is wrong. However, I don't feel Zelda is the right serious to do that. It is an extremely fantasy game that is not very serious in nature the first place. It is very much in the vain of the "traditional story". I still fail to see why making Link female is now so important all of a sudden. If they want to promote women as powerful, why don't they make another franchise, not mess with a franchise that is already established. Again, when you establish an iconic character or even characters in general, it is not the common practice to just start flipping sexes to make some vague point about gender roles in society. I love philosophy, I love challenging society's views. However, there is a time and place for everything and Zelda is certainly not the place. I think anyone who has seen my signature knows I am not afraid to express unpopular viewpoints, but you just don't randomly bring it in out of nowhere in an unfitting situation.

Being a fantasy is irrelevant. It can still be intelligent.

It's got nothing to do with "making women powerful." It has more to do with the fact that Zelda games, like Mario, are fundamentally sexists. Women exist to be saved. Men exist to do the saving.

That attitude reflects terribly on BOTH sexes.

Nintendo, if it was a halfway responsible company of halfway responsible artists, would take that sexism very seriously indeed. But they don't. They seem to think 80's attitudes towards gender are somehow still appropriate now.

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DudeSean

130. Posted:

I still think there should be a choice for gender. Boys can play the game and envision themselves going on that journey. I would think that it would be harder for a girl to imagine herself as Link. And it's almost always a different Link in each Zelda game, so I see no reason why the descendant couldn't be either gender.

Zelda, I think, should just stay locked as a female character. It is "The Legend of Zelda." If it were a male, he likely wouldn't be named Zelda.

And just to reiterate, there is only one Ganon(dorf). He is either sealed away in another dimension, or somehow revived.

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Usagi-san

131. Posted:

WhiteKnight wrote:

Not every thing has to challenge some sort of deep social view, or gender roles in this case.

Why not? Zelda is an important franchise. The potential is there for a Zelda game to make a useful contribution to society, rather than give some random nerds a couple of hours of meaningless entertainment.

Games are art. It's time for games developers to start behaving like artists.

Art and Artists have no obligation to challenge anything.

Edited on by Usagi-san

"I never swear, my lord, I say yes or no; and, as I am a gentleman, I keep my word." - D'artagnan in Twenty Years After

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Bankai

132. Posted:

Usagi-san wrote:

WhiteKnight wrote:

Not every thing has to challenge some sort of deep social view, or gender roles in this case.

Why not? Zelda is an important franchise. The potential is there for a Zelda game to make a useful contribution to society, rather than give some random nerds a couple of hours of meaningless entertainment.

Games are art. It's time for games developers to start behaving like artists.

Art and Artists have no obligation to challenge anything.

As a collective philosophically they actually do.

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Morphbug

133. Posted:

@Waltz: Considering Zelda herself has been becoming more of an action girl herself with each game instead of always being the Peach-type seems to mean that nintendo is really trying to change things in that regard though.

Edited on by Morphbug

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Usagi-san

134. Posted:

WhiteKnight wrote:

Usagi-san wrote:

WhiteKnight wrote:

Not every thing has to challenge some sort of deep social view, or gender roles in this case.

Why not? Zelda is an important franchise. The potential is there for a Zelda game to make a useful contribution to society, rather than give some random nerds a couple of hours of meaningless entertainment.

Games are art. It's time for games developers to start behaving like artists.

Art and Artists have no obligation to challenge anything.

As a collective philosophically they actually do.

There is no "collective philosophy" of art because every artist creates it for their own reasons.

"I never swear, my lord, I say yes or no; and, as I am a gentleman, I keep my word." - D'artagnan in Twenty Years After

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Zombie_Barioth

135. Posted:

@DudeSean
Yea, right idea wrong word. I meant the hero of time is always a guy, Zelda's predecessor is always a girl, and Ganon always manages to find a way to come back.

@WhiteKnight

You have to remember that LOZ (and Mario I guess) is based on the age old fairy tale tradition of the knight in shining armor, rescuing the damsel in distress and saving the kingdom. Yes its rather sexist but then again what little girl didn't dream about having their own prince charming sweep her off her feet? But just because its the girl being rescued doesn't mean shes a wimp. Zelda has been taking a much more proactive role lately but I don't see Nintendo changing the fundamentals of their series anytime soon.

Edited on by Zombie_Barioth

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Bankai

136. Posted:

Usagi-san wrote:

WhiteKnight wrote:

Usagi-san wrote:

WhiteKnight wrote:

Not every thing has to challenge some sort of deep social view, or gender roles in this case.

Why not? Zelda is an important franchise. The potential is there for a Zelda game to make a useful contribution to society, rather than give some random nerds a couple of hours of meaningless entertainment.

Games are art. It's time for games developers to start behaving like artists.

Art and Artists have no obligation to challenge anything.

As a collective philosophically they actually do.

There is no "collective philosophy" of art because every artist creates it for their own reasons.

You misread what I wrote completely. As a COLLECTIVE (as in a group of individuals) artists are directly responsible for the evolution of human culture. Whether they delibeately set out to do so or not. Shakespeare likely never set out to change people's attitudes towards theatre and literature. Yet that's exactly what he did. He just wanted to make popular plays.

As one of the dominant creative forces of one of the dominant art forms Nintendo has a great deal of artistic responsibility and influence.

See also: Michael Foucalt and Jeremy Basille. You know, actual social philosophers.

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Bankai

137. Posted:

Zombie_Barioth wrote:

@DudeSean
Yea, right idea wrong word. I meant the hero of time is always a guy, Zelda's predecessor is always a girl, and Ganon always manages to find a way to come back.

@WhiteKnight

You have to remember that LOZ (and Mario I guess) is based on the age old fairy tale tradition of the knight in shining armor, rescuing the damsel in distress and saving the kingdom. Yes its rather sexist but then again what little girl didn't dream about having their own prince charming sweep her off her feet? But just because its the girl being rescued doesn't mean shes a wimp. Zelda has been taking a much more proactive role lately but I don't see Nintendo changing the fundamentals of their series anytime soon.

You know, being based on a genre of literature long outdated is not actually an excuse for promoting sexist attitudes.

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theblackdragon

138. Posted:

Trainer_DJ wrote:

Aviator wrote:

And bravery, a strong sense of justice, selflessness, and perseverance, whether it is right or not, cannot be associated with a woman character?

I knew someone would say that. These have been considered traditionally more masculine in society. Is it right for those traits to automatically be associated with men? That is up for debate. I don't think so. However, if you look at any qualities of a traditional male hero, those have been central. All I am saying is that Link is in my opinion a masculine character, not just in the dirty, macho, in your face type of way.

And they haven't been the qualities of female heroes as well? I don't quite get what you're trying to say. A sense of justice, perseverance, and selflessness has been a part of both male and female protagonists as well as historical heroic figures, it comes with the territory. any hero is going to boil down to those three qualities at the very least, otherwise nothing would get done and no one would be saved.

This thread is very slowly beginning to make my head explode. There are people who are taking it seriously, and these people I thank for giving the overall topic of gender issues in video games the respect it deserves, because it's something I feel strongly about. as for those of you who use these topics as cheap vehicles to spout sexist jokes and behave like fools, I can only hope that someday you understand and eventually come to regret what you're doing right now.

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Void

139. Posted:

@WaltzElf You sure? Quite a few times you said that Nintendo is just a company, a company thats only out to make money. ;)

I used to travel the stars, then I discovered Earth, and these incredibly addicting things called 'Video Games.'
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Bankai

140. Posted:

Void wrote:

@WaltzElf You sure? Quite a few times you said that Nintendo is just a company, a company thats only out to make money. ;)

Thankfully it's possible to make piles of money while being socially progressive... Or even ethical! :o

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