Topic: Paper Mario: Color Splash - OT

@Mister_Wu Alright, some good points there, but there is something that I disagree with. Partners in Time was seriously dark, but aside from that, M & L is generally more light-hearted, with maybe one or two other exceptions. Also, it definitely has some stiff competition with Super Paper Mario. Still, I'll give you the other stuff, and we at least can agree with Tabata's response being absolute bull.

@NintendoFan64 I wasn't making a Super Paper Mario vs Mario & Luigi: Partners in Time comparison in terms of darkness, they also use different kinds of dark themes. My point is, simply, that series are complex to describe in term of a general tone. I'd say that Paper Mario is a bit light hearted, TTYD less so and SPM much less. Mario & Luigi: Partners in Time is dark, Superstar Saga less so, Paper Jam however becomes again more serious without being dark in the same way as Partners in Time is. The writers have a distinct style, and here the Mario & Luigi series has many more silly, crazy and comedic moments, I'll never deny that, but I still think the general tone can change throughout the series and is thus difficult to capture, as you can always find an extreme (Paper Mario) that is less dark than the other extreme (Mario & Luigi: Partners in Time).

@Mister_Wu Yeah, I don't know why I threw in the Super comparison, but I get what you're saying.

If people are genuinely upset then they really need to reassess their priorities. The idea is laughable.

A Toad is killed by a Shy-Guy sucking all the paint out of him. I wouldn't exactly call that light. The same for sacrificing yourself.

The art style is what makes it Paper Mario. Give it any other art concept and there is no possible way for it to be a Paper Mario game.

And you can carry more than one sticker. The concepts behind having a weapon that requires ammo to shoot and expending stickers to attack is the same.

They "fix" something and someone else will be complaining about what was fixed. It's not some slight if they choose to do something different than how someone else thinks it should be done. Like it or not, whatever way Nintendo decides to take one of their games is the only way we've got, whether we think it "right" or "wrong."

The effort required to make those game is less than what is required to make an RPG

[quote=NintendoFan64]If you want a better understanding, I’d recommend you go look up Arlo’s two videos on the subject:[quote=NintendoFan64]

Ugh, I've already watched the first Arlo video (which reading my initial comments on it will show), his sense of entitlement is cancerous. I'll pass on watching the second.

More like a child who won't eat broccoli because it looks like cauliflower.

All I'm reading is that it's bad because it's different. Without all those things that it is apparently lacking, it is impossible to be a good Paper Mario game, which is simply not the case. If SS and CS had been labelled as a Mario Craft series, then I wouldn't be surprised if more than half the complaints disappeared.

To be honest, I think they should have done that. If you change development team and it becomes clear that you cannot continue to have the same mechanics with all the nuances that the fans liked, it is sometimes better to draw a line and use a new name. Mario & Luigi: Superstar Saga is made by the same directors that made Super Mario RPG, and those directors actually worked even on Mario & Luigi: Paper Jam, but they changed the name for the new series.

@shaneoh Y'know what? I'm done. You aren't even willing to listen and understand people dissapointment, so I'm not even gonna bother, because you think all of this just amounts to people not liking change and feeling entitled. Oh, and again, it's not different. It's just Sticker Star all over again. If anything, change would've been preferred here.

@NintendoFan64
It's Sticker Star, except where it isn't, same with every other game made. Enjoy the bitterness, I'll be playing Colour Splash with an open mind.

Good to go into it with an open mind, though Nintendo hasn't shown me, personally, anything about it that makes me want to even do that. Same with many others it seems

“This time we have–I don’t know if I want to say a proper story–but we have a story.” -Color Splash Dev

http://kotaku.com/the-paper-mario-game-not-everyone-wants-178...

Why can't they just ignore Miyamoto and just try their best and make a proper story, just try. There are so many people who would love to write great stories in movies, games, books, but they don't get the opportunity because it's hard to get into the industry. Now these devs who have that opportunity are wasting it, by purposely not doing their best because Miyamoto personally wants to see as little story as possible.

@TheSuperStarSaga To be fair, while Miyomoto is far from blameless, I think it's more revolved around what he said and how IS took it.

The first Paper Mario, when you think about, had a very simple story. Bowser's still the villain, Twink is a lot like Kristi but just with Peach instead of Mario, and you could argue that the story itself doesn't progress that much until the endgame... much like Sticker Star.

The difference is what happened between the beginning and the end. With the first Paper Mario it was a set of individual adventures with a traveling party with a lot of whacky, yet sometimes serious, scenarios. From exploring a island full of Yoshi's to a toy box full of shy guys to a penguin mystery case the adventure remained engaging and unpredictable. On the other hand, Sticker Star felt like a set of levels that can SOMETIMES have it's moments.

So at the core, I don't think it's the LACK of story of the LACK of original characters that's holding the series back, it's not finding anything creative to do with them when they are given the limitations. If said limitations were given back during Paper Mario 1, it wouldn't take too many tweaks to keep the same tone and mood.

Yeah. Sticker Star was just...bizarre in what was decided about it.

To add to the controversy, even though I agree that Miyamoto's ideas were a short-sighted mistake, the biggest mistake was giving this advice and not even involving himself otherwise in its development. If Miyamoto had made it, we would've at least gotten a game that didn't pointlessly backtrack and all the stupid required sticker overdose and had stronger moment to moment gameplay and level design. Even with the limitations, I don't know what IS were doing in the first place. Even if none of these changes had happened, I wonder if the game would've lived up to the previous Paper Mario games regardless.

This is basically the classic "let's make this game again, except done right" sequel.

This is the point I was trying to make before: we don't know how the discarded Sticker Star's protoytpe was. It probably had a stronger base structure borrowed from the first two games, but this doesn't mean it would have been as good as those two. If such strong limitations were put in place, it might mean that the development team had difficulties in making realizable ideas (e.g. a project so ambitious it was not actually realizable, or too vague) or simply making a game like the first two that was actually as good as the first two while introducing the idea of the stickers to solve puzzles.
Miyamoto now oversees so many projects that he's not an actual director of any of them (yes, despite what he said, he isn't credited as the director of Star Fox Zero...), so I can see why he just gave some odd advices - considering Sticker Star was supposed to be an RPG - that made the game easier to design.
So, also on this point I agree with you @kkslider5552000 : I see this as the second attempt of this team to see if they are at least able to make a decent gameplay with this simpler base structure.

Sorry for the double post, but some details relevant for the discussion with @NintendoFan64 and @shaneoh:

7:00 If you don't have any card in battle, you can buy them using coins in the same battle.
19:34 The boss battle requires you to deal enough damage before the section in which the Thing must be used. So at least a boss battle requires you to actually battle in the "classic" way before the Sticker Star way begins.
19:57 In the boss battle they exhausted all the yellow color despite having 220 max. You start with 100 max. It must be seen how powerful the uncolored cards are, how many coins are needed to buy the 1-UP Mushroom cards, and how much paint will the flashy attacks use (those are not flashy cards).
21:35 Important Thing cards are mandatory, you need them to finish the courses. So, unless you waste them, you should always have the Thing cards you need for the boss battles.

I hope they make a guide book for this game. A little annoyed they didn't make one for Mario & Luigi Paper Jam.

@Mister_Wu As annoying as the host was, that did a lot to relieve some of my concerns about the game. I don't necessarily mind thing cards so long as you can't miss the required ones. With how quickly the paint supply diminished in that battle, I'm still wondering how easy it is to restore paint but otherwise it looks worth a buy.

I accept that, people have different tastes. But calling a game bad because it doesn't appeal to you is what I argue against.

Thanks for that. I don't think I need to say any more on that point.

Alright, that's somewhat relieving.

Some bosses in Sticker Star still functioned like this, King Goomba comes to mind.

For the record, I beat like three of the bosses in Sticker Star without "Thing Stickers" (King Goomba, that Ice Bowser thing, and Petey Piranha). Heck, even the Gooper Blooper fight's "Thing Sticker" just protected you from a specific attack (I think it would knock the attack back, but it wasn't particularly devistating to the boss). There were no "Thing" stickers that would one hit KO Bowser either.

I never really understood the mentality that bosses in Sticker Star required you to use "Things", that would one hit KO them, because to me, they always came off as optional tools you could use to make the fight easier.

@RR529 Really? Cause I got the idea, from reading this thread, that you had to track down these stickers in order to beat the boss. In the Color Splash demo, it seemed that the Thing Cards only made the battles a lot easier too. If that's the case, then I don't understand the complaints. It looks like the Thing Cards are just like special moves that you save for a boss battle.

Yeah, I distinctly remember beating King Goomba, the Ice Sculpture Bowser, and I think Petey Piranha without the use of a "Thing" sticker.