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Topic: Nintendo balancing the gender bias

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CaviarMeths

Aviator wrote:

CaviarMeths wrote:

*Offering a choice of gender also means having a story that either changes slightly depending on that choice or having a story in which the protagonist's gender is irrelevant. You can't just change genders all willy-nilly. There are important story considerations. On that note, I consider Samus's character progressive because she is a female protagonist in a game in which her gender is irrelevant (barring Other M).

What would have to be changed?

Depends on the game and writing. This was more of a general statement, because in most Zelda games, Link's gender is irrelevant. In Skyward Sword though, having a female Link would change the context of most of the story. In other series, like Mass Effect and Dragon Age, the story changes slightly depending on both your background and gender. Character interactions change, romantic options change, etc.

So Anakin kneels before Monster Mash and pledges his loyalty to the graveyard smash.

Dreamz

CaviarMeths wrote:

*Offering a choice of gender also means having a story that either changes slightly depending on that choice or having a story in which the protagonist's gender is irrelevant. You can't just change genders all willy-nilly. There are important story considerations. On that note, I consider Samus's character progressive because she is a female protagonist in a game in which her gender is irrelevant (barring Other M).

It's only irrelevant because in every game except for Other M and Fusion, we see exactly zero of Samus's personality and character. Basically, for the longest time you had a playerbase projecting their take on the character. Then when Other M came along, a game that revolved completely around Samus as a character, and didn't mesh with that, people threw a fit.

Edited on by Dreamz

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CaviarMeths

Dreamz wrote:

CaviarMeths wrote:

*Offering a choice of gender also means having a story that either changes slightly depending on that choice or having a story in which the protagonist's gender is irrelevant. You can't just change genders all willy-nilly. There are important story considerations. On that note, I consider Samus's character progressive because she is a female protagonist in a game in which her gender is irrelevant (barring Other M).

It's only irrelevant because in every game except for Other M and Fusion, we see exactly zero of Samus's personality and character. Basically, for the longest time you had a playerbase projecting their take on the character. Then when Other M came along, a game that revolved completely around Samus as a character, and didn't mesh with that, people threw a fit.

Yes, but I thought that was a good thing. Having her gender irrelevant made the games more involving for people who liked RP'ing and it also made her a strong character without having to draw unnecessary attention to her being a woman. That's a common problem in so much writing. Whenever I see a female character with try-hard writers giving her a bunch of "empowerment" speeches and filling up her dialogue without how she ain't need no man, I feel like hurling. It comes off as less Rosie the Riveter, more Chick Nukem.

So Anakin kneels before Monster Mash and pledges his loyalty to the graveyard smash.

Geonjaha

Dreamz wrote:

CaviarMeths wrote:

*Offering a choice of gender also means having a story that either changes slightly depending on that choice or having a story in which the protagonist's gender is irrelevant. You can't just change genders all willy-nilly. There are important story considerations. On that note, I consider Samus's character progressive because she is a female protagonist in a game in which her gender is irrelevant (barring Other M).

Then when Other M came along, a game that revolved completely around Samus as a character, and didn't mesh with that, people threw a fit.

It wasn't the fact that Samus actually had a character; it was the fact that her characterisation made no sense given the experiences she'd had in all the other games up to that point. Not to mention the story was terrible and had many inconsistencies. Pretending other games didn't happen was more of a let down in that scenario.

Geonjaha

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Rin-go

@Dreamz
I said to me it's the same. I understand very well that the hero could be a heroine, because he isn't always the same person. But Link has been male for 28 years, just like Samus has been female for the same amount of time. There was enough time to make Link a female or offer the option to choose the gender that doing it now just seems unnecessary. Like I said before, rather make a whole new franchise with a female protagonist.
We are also talking about games. They could very well make a spin-off about a male Samus Aran. You can take every franchise and change the gender of every character and explain it in a more or less plausible way, because they are only this, characters from a game.

Rin-go

jump

For the people who keep saying Link is male there has always been multiple Links so comparisons to Mario & Samus don't work as they are a defined character rather than a new interpretation.

Nicolai wrote:

Alright, I gotta stop getting into arguments with jump. Someone remind me next time.

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Mickey

Gonna post again to clear up the confusion on what my last comment was suggesting.

I wasn't suggesting that female protagonists were rare. I was suggesting that it would be huge if Link was suddenly a female (as in: It wouldn't work if it was a lesser-known or new character). The Zelda franchise is huge, so naturally it'd be huge if that big franchise of Nintendo's (which people have grown up on) became the poster child for "Why not?" when it came to gender in fiction.

Now, you can sit on your gilded chair of male-privilege and say "it wouldn't be anything special" but, like I said before, it already is. And I hope people like you don't ruin this for the rest of us.

CaviarMeths wrote:

I disagree that Link needs to be female to be progressive. In fact, I think it would be going against gender equality to force it.

I don't think anybody was saying that (DO NOT make this part the basis of your reply), but a character as indefinite as Link could easily be a female without "forcing it."

I don't wanna hear anymore about Skyward Sword, alright? Link has morphed and changed before Skyward Sword and he'll morph and change after it. Whether or not that means he'll be a girl somewhere down-the-line shouldn't be such a point of contention. Plus, this probably isn't a Skyward Sword sequel anyway, so stop expecting it to follow Skyward Sword's example.

And, guys: Link being a female doesn't make it impossible for her to have a character (the fact that some of you do believe that, says a lot of questionable things about you). Personally, I prefer blank-slate Link, but they might give her a worthwhile character too. Her being female doesn't cancel out her being a good character, and the character we see in Skyward Sword isn't the only way to have Link be a good character, too, so stop bringing it up like it's the be-all and end-all of Zelda.

Finally:

skywake wrote:

Why I don't think this discussion matters.

"Why I don't think this discussion matters?" Skywake, baby, I've loved your posts in the past, but this offends me on so many levels. >.<

This discussion matters. A female Link would matter. Actually, as we've seen in this very thread, a female Link would matter to a lot of people. Denying that based on a scene from a game that has little to no significance to this new game is illogical. Link was a different character in Ocarina than he was in ALttP, or Wind Waker, or Twilight Princess, or Skyward Sword. He'll probably be a different character in this game too. He might even be female. Either way, your enjoyment of the game shouldn't ride on whether or not Link is a man.

Not gonna make any promises of not posting again this time. Hopefully I won't have to, though...

Edited on by Mickey

Formerly MickeyTheGreat and MickMick. Now I'm Mickey again!

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Dreamz

Geonjaha wrote:

Dreamz wrote:

CaviarMeths wrote:

*Offering a choice of gender also means having a story that either changes slightly depending on that choice or having a story in which the protagonist's gender is irrelevant. You can't just change genders all willy-nilly. There are important story considerations. On that note, I consider Samus's character progressive because she is a female protagonist in a game in which her gender is irrelevant (barring Other M).

Then when Other M came along, a game that revolved completely around Samus as a character, and didn't mesh with that, people threw a fit.

It wasn't the fact that Samus actually had a character; it was the fact that her characterisation made no sense given the experiences she'd had in all the other games up to that point. Not to mention the story was terrible and had many inconsistencies. Pretending other games didn't happen was more of a let down in that scenario.

Again, the previous games were completely void of any character reaction. Maybe Samus DID freak out in the other games - we would never know because there's no characterization displayed, they're straight action games, nothing else. Beyond that, Samus freaking out after encountering Ridley is pulled straight from the Metroid manga series. It's pure canon, so for the people who have issues with it, they have an issue with the canon, not Other M.

But, semi-back on topic, while I do think Nintendo has a better gender balance than Sony and Microsoft, I still would like to see a Zelda game with either a female Link, or one where you play as Zelda herself instead.

Imagine this scenario: Princess Zelda inherits the Triforce of Courage. A dashing young man from the forest has come into possession of the Triforce of Power, and in his corruption is currently waging a successful war that threatens to topple the Hyrulean monarchy. Now, her only hope of preserving her kingdom rests on seeking out an ancient sage of extraordinary wisdom, said to give counsel to the Gerudo elders in their time of need...

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Dreamz

bezerker99 wrote:

Link is and always has been 100% male. Deal.with.it.

But what if we agree with the below?
Please watch the language, even in macro form — TBD

Edited on by theblackdragon

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Arminillo

Retconning male characters into females is not the answer. These developers make games from their own imagination and expierences, and I sincerely hope that if a female character is introduced in ANY game (or black, or gay, or whatever), it is because of the artistic vision, not political agenda. People like to say videogames are art, but you dont see people wanting to put lady parts on the Statue of David.

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unrandomsam

The Hero of Light has not always been male. (See the satelleview true sequel to a Link to the Past).

Fact is the Zelda story is similar to Groundhog Day.

I hope they try something really radical.

“30fps Is Not a Good Artistic Decision, It's a Failure”
Freedom of the press is for those who happen to own one.

Geonjaha

Mickey wrote:

"Why I don't think this discussion matters?" Skywake, baby, I've loved your posts in the past, but this offends me on so many levels. >.<

He was only stating his opinion on the discussion, I don't think you should be taking offence to it simply because it isn't your own view. Especially if you're making broad statements such as these;

Mickey wrote:

Now, you can sit on your gilded chair of male-privilege...

Yea, lets try to not go down that road.

Don't get me wrong - I think having the option of playing as whatever sex you wish is great, especially with faceless characters anyway, but that doesn't make other people's concerns any less valid. If we're talking about making Link female only (as in people cant play Link as a male anymore) then it'd be just as exclusive as before, just with a strange change in the main characters sex which could alienate current fans. If indeed this is about always having the option of either sex, then concerns about specific characterisation come up.

Edited on by Geonjaha

Geonjaha

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unrandomsam

Suicune wrote:

Retconning male characters into females is not the answer. These developers make games from their own imagination and expierences, and I sincerely hope that if a female character is introduced in ANY game (or black, or gay, or whatever), it is because of the artistic vision, not political agenda. People like to say videogames are art, but you dont see people wanting to put lady parts on the Statue of David.

It stops being art when you start thinking about commercial considerations. Shenmue is art cannot think of anything else that is.

(Or change the original vision for any reason whatsoever).

Edited on by unrandomsam

“30fps Is Not a Good Artistic Decision, It's a Failure”
Freedom of the press is for those who happen to own one.

Dreamz

unrandomsam wrote:

Suicune wrote:

Retconning male characters into females is not the answer. These developers make games from their own imagination and expierences, and I sincerely hope that if a female character is introduced in ANY game (or black, or gay, or whatever), it is because of the artistic vision, not political agenda. People like to say videogames are art, but you dont see people wanting to put lady parts on the Statue of David.

It stops being art when you start thinking about commercial considerations. Shenmue is art cannot think of anything else that is.

Child of Light is art by every definition of the word.

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Arminillo

unrandomsam wrote:

It stops being art when you start thinking about commercial considerations.

That is a very interesting viewpoint. Which I assume, means you think most movies, music, cartoons, and archetecture are in fact NOT art because they were intended to promote or monetize? Or do you mean you ignore artistic value when thinking about how it will affect the public? Two really different interpretations to that.

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unrandomsam

Dreamz wrote:

unrandomsam wrote:

Suicune wrote:

Retconning male characters into females is not the answer. These developers make games from their own imagination and expierences, and I sincerely hope that if a female character is introduced in ANY game (or black, or gay, or whatever), it is because of the artistic vision, not political agenda. People like to say videogames are art, but you dont see people wanting to put lady parts on the Statue of David.

It stops being art when you start thinking about commercial considerations. Shenmue is art cannot think of anything else that is.

Child of Light is art by every definition of the word.

No Ubiart was paid for by the French Government to promote the Arts but Ubisoft kept it to themselves. (Unlike what they initially stated). They could have also made it better but didn't for commercial considerations.

Ubisoft is art like Ronald McDonald.

“30fps Is Not a Good Artistic Decision, It's a Failure”
Freedom of the press is for those who happen to own one.

unrandomsam

(i.e not at all ever).

“30fps Is Not a Good Artistic Decision, It's a Failure”
Freedom of the press is for those who happen to own one.

theblackdragon

Suicune wrote:

People like to say videogames are art, but you dont see people wanting to put lady parts on the Statue of David.

You're right, retconning historically male characters into females isn't the answer. However, your analogy is flawed. In terms of Link, it's not about asking that the Statue of David be granted ladyparts, we're asking that perhaps Michelangelo consider a female option for his next great masterpiece in the series, since they're all (well, with few exceptions) different people.

also, @Dreamz, i would play the hell outta that game, no lie. Too bad Nintendo doesn't take suggestions from the public ;___;

Edited on by theblackdragon

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ogo79

theblackdragon wrote:

Too bad Nintendo doesn't take suggestions from the public ;___;

yer forgetting something, you have to cry and make petitions. it works all the time, have a look around
that ill teach em!

the_shpydar wrote:
As @ogo79 said, the SNS-RZ-USA is a prime giveaway that it's not a legit retail cart.
And yes, he is (usually) always right, and he is (almost) the sexiest gamer out there (not counting me) ;)

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