Topic: Super Mario Maker - OT

None of that applies to day 1 buyers who are more interested in playing than making. The premade levels are obviously there for that reason. They're saying "don't worry, you won't have to wait a month until the good stuff has floated to the top".

Actually, as an Australian who wants the physical copy? The earliest I'm going to be playing it is around 9:30AM WST on the Saturday. I'll probably be able to download it at 10PM WST on the Friday. The UK will get it at around 7AM WST on the Friday. Japan will be able to download it at around 11PM WST on the Thursday. So "day 1" is relative.

You're also forgetting that they've been creating levels since before E3. That reviewers will probably get finished code before they review it. You'd hope that would include level sharing given how big a part of the game it is. It doesn't make sense that they'd "clear the slate" before launch. There's also the fact that we know some stores will break the street date. It always happens. I don't at all buy this theory that on day1 we'll boot up Super Mario Maker and the game will say "sorry, nobody has uploaded anything yet".

I distinctly remember when I got my Wii U at launch. I wandered around a bit, checked things out, waited for updates. Booted up Nintendo Land and there were already MiiVerse posts. Went to MiiVerse later and there were insanely good drawings at the top of the page. This was on the first day. I doubt Super Mario Maker will be much different.

@skywake
Sure there'll be some stuff up. I'm just guessing the Nintendo-made levels will probably be the best thing available for probably a week or so, while people are getting to grips with what works, what makes for a good challenge level for the general audience etc etc.
In the long term, you're right, it doesn't make much difference. 6 months down the line, no-one will be playing the Nintendo levels. But that first impression is quite important in defining how the reception to something will develop.
It's also worth remembering, this is a retail release, not an early access game. It's getting reviewed based on its state day 1, for better or worse. That's probably not ideal for a game like this, but it's still what's going to happen!

@Dezzy:
It's hard to make a comparison because the game is kinda different to most. It takes a fair investment of time for someone to create a great level. I'm also fairly sure that the best levels will come out later as the community comes up with new ideas. So you're probably right. However when I got Splatoon a day before the official release date here? I believe before it was available in the US and maybe even most of Europe. The servers were still packed. The plaza was already covered with drawings and messages.

I think we can be fairly sure that a small percentage of people are going to download it as soon as they can and then spend an hour creating levels to upload. Enough that before most people even get a chance to play the game there will already be some great levels on there.

That depends on the skill level and how much one is knowledgeable of the philosophy of level design.

Take for example, I did this SMB3 level in 30 minutes. The first few minutes was picturing the level, the rest was placing the tiles in the editor (which is not that easy).

Here for example, the editor seems to be spot on. I would have taken 10 minutes or less to do the level in SMM.

Based on my previous experience in NSMB DS level design contests, bad levels almost took the same time to make as the levels that were rated the highest. It can even be that the bad levels were the most time taken to make, as one would likely want to cram a lot of things which don't correlate.

Basically, one must know what one can do, and then try to come up with a good idea of the elements you can use.
The total time consumption mostly comes for actually making the level with the editor, as the idea for a good level can be thought up in a few minutes (as well as seeing that idea develop further when you are placing objects)

We should have a weekly (or monthly) NintendoLife level-making competition in the forums to see who comes up with the best levels - so even people who may not be interested in making their own levels now will be motivated to create something if they know their levels are going to be played/rated, at least within our community...

There was something similar for Pushmo/Pullblox but the problem is people lose interest after a few months but it's still a good idea.

@arronishere

Hopefully this game will have a longer life than Pullblox! It's certainly got more depth to it.

And yet again, I never said this.

I spoke about these levels having an assured level of quality and being available day 1 for the player that wants to jump in and start playing first and foremost (With no need for the end-user to do anything except select them from a menu), while those most interested in creating learn the ropes and are noticed by others, allowing the cream to rise to the top to supplement these starter levels in the weeks, months, and years ahead with user-created content.

And here we are again, with you telling us that the "point" of this game is much more narrower than just having fun.

Why do you have this hang-up on where these levels are created from? Is it so terrible that others just want to jump in and play, and thus appreciate the product including ready-made and presumably high quality content that they can immediately start enjoying from day 1? That interest doesn't mean they're disinterested in creating levels or appreciating other's creations.

You're the only one that has made that claim.

I take no issue in you being perfectly content in buying a level editor and having it be composed of nothing but user-created content. Nor do I take issue over your befuddlement that others appreciate this feature, despite it having been clearly spelled out to you. But that you twist what has been said, insult others, and such is very much crossing the line and devalues any point you may have.

Yet when I said that was an excellent point that I hadn't thought about, but does matter to me (I'm still playing 2600 games, buy retail whenever possible for just this reason of longevity, etc.), I was insulted by you and essentially told that if I hadn't said it first, it didn't matter to me.

Just because I didn't think of it, doesn't mean that it doesn't matter to me. The state of Wii U gaming after support ends does matter, and has guided a variety of decisions I've made with this system since day 1. Nor did I ever claim that my interest in pre-made levels is purely about this concern you keep claiming that I've stated, that user-made levels won't compare.

At worst, I've raised doubts that Nintendo's online system will be up to the task of ensuring that the best creations get the greatest exposure, thus these inclusions being especially important during its opening weeks on the market. That is it, and is a far cry from how you've twisted around my posts.

I for one am really excited about creating good levels. Sure, playing new levels is fun but when launch day comes, I'll be tinkering with the creation aspect more than anything. Just less than a month now!

I requested September 11th off from work.

Should I do a download on my Wii U for this? I think it would be less stress than going to a midnight release to GameStop. I plan to be up all night from Thursday night until probably 6am Friday morning playing the game on release date.

Do you just want to have an argument? Because I'm fine with having an argument even though I really thought this whole thing was over. But if you want to argue can you at least disagree with what I'm actually saying rather than what you want to think I'm saying.

Don't try to say that you weren't concerned about the quality of the user generated levels. Then say that you were instead just concerned about the quality of the user generated levels. Don't say that I'm wrong to say that the servers going down isn't an issue after I literally said that the servers going down is by far the most compelling argument here. And that if that was what people were arguing I would have just said "oh, ok, fair enough then". Because I can understand that point of view. I don't share that concern but it does make sense to me.

The entire play-by-play argument thus far has been this. I asked why anyone should care about how many levels are included on the disk. Two people responded saying that levels needed to be included on the disk because we can't be sure of how good the user generated levels will be. I said that if that's the concern then I think you're missing the point of the game. And that was it. If you want to argue? Then that's the point of disagreement. If you want to argue about something else? Then I'm sorry, I think you'll find we're on the same page

This knock down drag-out brawl is still going on? I need some Dr. Pepper.

Huh? What you typed doesn't even make any sense.

What?

All I said is that despite not having thought of this earlier, I do consider it especially important that the title is well stocked with quality level offerings for the future when the online server isn't able to provide that aspect of this title.

I'm not allowed to even do that?

First, you've taken the crown for arguing. It's a two way streak and you've done more of it than anyone because you don't appreciate our own opinions on our own thoughts about this game. If you notice, nobody has criticized you for being completely interested in the user-generated side of it.

It has been you that has done 100% of the protesting about other people's opinions about this title...

First post from me, which you found so objectionable and continue to do so through multiple iterations now, after you posted stating that you don't understand why anyone views this as important.

Yeah, that's so awful...

Nope, I never said that.

As I've reiterated a half dozen times already through a number of posts and will remain doing so until you stop portraying my opinion otherwise, if I have any concern here, it's with Nintendo's server side setup and their ability to bring high quality user-generated productions to the forefront for the ease of the gamer searching for new levels to play. Nintendo's online integration often leaves a lot to be desired and as I see it, this is the one area where this title could really falter if it's not fast, easy to browse, and has a robust search system that allows content ranked highly by users to be easily and rapidly identified.

So make that one person, if that much...

@Pahvi:
As I said, I thought this argument was over also until I saw that wall of text on the previous page. Tearing apart snippets of what I said out of context. And I'm fine with arguing a point as long as people are actually making points against what I'm actually saying. It's a bit tedious when someone wants to pretend they said something they didn't. Or pretend that I said something I didn't.

@GoneFishin:
Once again, you're trying to argue that you never said this was about the quality of levels. That you really wanted there to be included levels for some other reason. And then you quote where you apparently outlined this reasoning but....

You keep repeating that your concern was never about the quality of the user created levels. That you wanted the levels to be included in the game for some other reason. But then you go on to say that your concern was about the quality of the user generated levels. And how hard it might be to find good levels online. And if you want to pretend that you were saying otherwise? Then sorry, but I'm not going to argue.

To put it simply, I trust that the user generated levels will be good. I don't at all mind that there are levels on the disk. However I am confused as to why people care so much about the included levels. I remain confused. The fact that this argument has gone on for so long? That only adds to that confusion.

Yet that doesn't say what you maintain that it says. Separating the wheat from the chaff in this instance is in reference to differentiating between high quality creations and low quality creations, not the quantity of either or the level of quality for the best creations.

I have never shifted my position on why I want these levels to be included. I've added to it as other thoughts, including from you, have been added. But I never closed the door like you seem to think I did. Not only did I never say that I had a concern that there won't be an abundance of high quality user-creations, I also never said that my interest in this feature is due to any one reason. So don't tell me that I can't widen my thoughts on why I feel this is an important feature of this title, at least where my own interests rests.

I'll admit that I'm not as enthralled by user-generated content as you are. There's going to be no shortage of boring creations and I guarantee that in the weeks after launch, there's going to be a wide assortment of level 1-1 recreations of the first level in Super Mario Brothers. Yet the closest I've came to what you claim I've said, is that it's going to take time for the creations from talented designers to get into the spotlight. I've simply been honest and have stated something that I think is only logical.

The ability for this feature to add all that it can potentially add to this title, as I see it, is not only going to take a bit of time for it to naturally evolve as the more talented among us familiarize themselves with the tools at their disposal, but also for these creations to rise to the top via attention and ratings from the community itself. That's why I've spoken multiple times now about how this feature is important to start us off with. As for the game itself, the local product is guaranteed as far as I'm concerned. Any doubts/concerns I have rests on the server side only.

That is the only area that I have expressed any concern in, and frankly, I'm not that concerned since this has evolved into much too big of a deal for them to skimp out in such a crucial area. But without an online system that properly handles this where the cream rises to the top and is within easy reach, it's not going to be half as useful as it could've otherwise been.

I have never suggested that there aren't going to be an awful lot of excellent homebrew levels created for this game. Frankly, I've seen what the videogame community can do many times over the years, and expect these default levels to be surpassed in fairly short order (I'm an Atari 2600 fan for instance, and routinely see homebrew titles that blow commercial releases from 30 years ago out of the water; I know what people can do that create just for the love of creating.).

This disagreement has turned into a full-on debate with multi-quotes and everything. You know things are serious when people have multiple quotes dissecting the opposition's arguments...

@GoneFishin:
Again, the fact that you care so much about the included levels that you'd write a rant like that baffles me. Especially given you have again said that it's due to a concern that the user generated levels won't be as good. And I repeat the point I've made since the start, if that's your argument? Then I don't think you understand the point of this title.

I'm afraid that I can't explain it any better than I've already tried.

The best that I can offer is that there's always something that you won't understand or see the appeal of. That's just how life works...

But to try one last time, we'll return to my earliest post. I'm here for the gameplay more than anything. I don't envision personally spending a lot of time in the level editor, or my own creations being up to par. So if I essentially already have a full adventure available without any intervention on my part, why not? There's no significance who made what, where a well designed Mario level is concerned.

Then if I want more, great, that's what user generated content is all about, isn't it? Supplementing the experience to provide an unlimited amount of new material to greatly expand the lifespan of a game and take it past what the designers ever originally envisioned.

Even when I go out of my way multiple times to stress that this isn't how I feel, you still claim that I'm stating this. You're reading between the lines, my friend. If you stick with what's actually in black & white in my post, nothing of the sort is said in that post of mine.

Can't you just accept that for whatever reason, you're misinterpreting my posts? If I felt this way and have posted that I do in as many post as you claim, why would I repeatedly be disagreeing about it for?

lol

I think the point of it is to entertain.

What I don't understand the point of, is why it matters so much to you that myself and others are going to actually play these levels (And frankly, consider a solid slate of starter levels being included as a core requirement of this title). It's an opinion that Nintendo seems to share it would seem, for whatever reason, since they're not including these just for the heck of it.

If you don't understand, fine. But if it's any solace to you in your search to understand this, take away the fact that Nintendo themselves are the ones that are including these levels. I'm not dictating what they're doing here and they're professionals and are the folks that have built this game. I think that they know what they're doing and assume that you feel the same way.

Maybe the fact that they're the ones actually including these levels, will comfort you a bit. You'll still not understand it, but they're obviously not including these levels just for the heck of it. They actually do expect people to be playing these...

Is it so hard to also understand that one of their customers is looking forward to playing them (This is a rhetorical question, since clearly, I already have been provided with my answer)?

sighs You people are still arguing over this?