This package is about having fun. There is absolutely nothing wrong with one hoping that there's a solid slate of professionally designed levels to complement the experience.
Stop trying to limit this title and push your opinions on others that don't feel the same as you. We all have different priorities here. That I'm more looking forward to playing the game than creating my own levels, and want a selection of pre-made levels created by professionals that represent a known quantity, doesn't mean that I'm missing the boat here.
Again, all I said was that I didn't understand why people were so fixated on how many levels will be built in. The game's main appeal is the fact that we will be flooded with a near-infinite amount of levels. I'm not at all saying that you are wrong not to want to spend time creating levels. I didn't even say that I'd rather the game not have built-in levels. I simply said that I don't understand why people are concerned about how many levels will be included in a game which is designed to produce an endless supply of levels....
@Skywake I didn't say the IGN level was bad. But I would say that it didn't look like a Mario level to me (well, a Mario level I've ever played - I've never played Lost Levels or the really challenging levels in any Mario platformer). This is where we differ - I don't look only at the mechanics (kick shells, jump on enemies, this and that type of blocks) but more of the flow and spacing. I'm not saying I'm the ultimate authority on what is Mario-like and what is not, of course.
(And now that I think of it - the premade levels don't really look like Mario levels to me either...)
Yeah, most of the levels they've shown so far have been far more closer to the Lost Levels end of the spectrum. Because that's what people want to create. It's almost funny that this is a complaint, usually people complain that the New SMB series is too easy. Because for a huge game like New SMB everything is play-tested, they make it easier so that more people can enjoy it. It's almost focus-group driven. If you remove that huge pressure from it? Well you get something closer to what old NES games were. Which is what Mario Maker will be.... and personally I think that's better than what 2D Mario has become
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"Don't stir the pot" is a nice way of saying "they're too dumb to reason with"
@skywake People are fixated on how many levels are included because the more levels included the better value the game represents. When the rumor of over 100 levels came out it got people excited because of that. Also because the levels included are not like the levels in other mario games because they have the craziness of what can be done with editing tools baked in. These levels are made to show off the potential of creation suite and inspire. I hope you can take these levels and make your own edits to them as well. Playing some of the crazy levels shown off is a big excitement for this game. When they demo the game it is almost all people playing created levels because creating is a more time consuming personal thing not done well in a demonstration situation.
Additionally, even if these levels are not included, they're likely to still be available by searching for them. Just revisit the demonstrations and videos or make a note of the titles. Then you can locate them online. Simples. Complaint resolved.
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@GoneFishin: I'm pretty sure the pre-packaged levels are there primarily to give ideas to players to make their own levels. You're gonna pay full price for Super Mario Maker for the pre-packaged levels?
Nope, I'm going to be paying full price for a well rounded package that also includes a nice selection of professionally designed levels, that's titled Super Mario Maker.
Everything isn't mutually exclusive, folks. That I'm more interested in playing than in creating, doesn't mean that I don't see value in the full package on offer here or won't be taking advantage of it all.
Why will you guys apparently be ignoring the 60 professionally designed levels that Nintendo will be including?
I'm not at all saying that you are wrong not to want to spend time creating levels.
That's not what I said.
I'm definitely looking forward to using the level editor. But even more so, I'm looking forward to playing the game itself. I really doubt that my creations will be up to par, just as I suspect the vast majority of other people's creations will also be lacking in that extra something that makes it stand out.
Where this most excites me, is bringing additional original 2D sidescrolling Mario action to the Wii U. That's why quality levels are important to start this off with, before hopefully the user community and a well designed sorting system helps expand its longevity for the life of the Wii U's server support.
I was heavy into sim racing years ago on the PC. While I was there for the racing, there were folks that did nothing but paint cars for people. They couldn't really get into a realistic simulator, but they bought a well rounded package that allowed their creativity to shine and complement the experience for those of us that put their creations to work.
It's not about any one thing, but rather, the entire package.
If you want "professionally" made levels. there are already many Mario games that you can play..
Name me some then, since I've pretty much 100%'ed everything I'm aware of where sidescrolling Mario titles are concerned since becoming a Wii U owner a year into its life. I've fully finished New Super Mario Bros U and New Super Luigi U. In addition, I've added to many past playthroughs of classic sidescrolling Mario titles, via the Wii U's Virtual Console.
I've filled out all the save slots fully on Super Mario World, finished both games in the original Super Mario Bros (There's what amounts to a 2nd quest, after the first time through), finished Super Mario Bros. 3 once, Super Mario Bros. 2 once (I suppose I could replay this one with the other three characters), finished New Super Mario Bros. DS a few days ago, and I've gone through Super Mario Bros. 2 Japan both as Mario and Luigi (And am working towards completing it 6 more times to reach the last bonus levels). And if it counts, Yoshi's Island for the GBA.
About all that I haven't done, is replay stuff via backwards compatibility mode on my Wii U (Super Mario All-Stars and New Super Mario Bros. Wii). That and purchase the GBA ports of SMB2 and Super Mario World.
As I see it, all I have left is further replays of stuff I already know like the back of my hand and some minor variations, like running through the GBA port of SMW with Luigi's physics or New Super Luigi U with Mario's physics.
He said, she said, I mean, you mean, who really cares why someone wants the game and why should I care what anyone else does with their copy of the game? If they want it to support their coffee whilst they play something else who am I to judge?
Mario Maker ID - 4XR BYS 5PF
My Nintendo: Mikee | Nintendo Network ID: LavaTwilight
In agreement with the post above, changing gears, I hope Nintendo attempts to get the best user created content into everyone's hands.
I'd love to see a dozen levels that Nintendo has selected, be automatically downloaded for everyone on a weekly basis. Will be nice to always have something fresh available, whose quality is assured, without having to go manually search for new content.
Weekly challenges highlighting the best creations of the week, is something I suspect everyone can get behind.
I'm not at all saying that you are wrong not to want to spend time creating levels.
That's not what I said.
I'm definitely looking forward to using the level editor. But even more so, I'm looking forward to playing the game itself. I really doubt that my creations will be up to par, just as I suspect the vast majority of other people's creations will also be lacking in that extra something that makes it stand out.
Where this most excites me, is bringing additional original 2D sidescrolling Mario action to the Wii U. That's why quality levels are important to start this off with, before hopefully the user community and a well designed sorting system helps expand its longevity for the life of the Wii U's server support.
I was responding to your statement that I was "trying to limit this title and push your opinions on others that don't feel the same". What a load. To repeat myself, I'm not saying that the game should just be a creation game. I'm not saying that the game shouldn't have built in levels. All I'm saying is that I don't really understand the obsession with how many levels are built in given the fact that you'll have access to an endless supply of levels. But of course, be pedantic about my response and instead have a go at the fact that I assumed you weren't interested in creating levels when you repeatedly said that you were more interested in playing levels.
And BTW I'm in the same boat, I never said I wasn't. You just assumed that I was apparently only interested in the creation tools for some reason. Which is absurd. No, I'm interested in the game because of the endless supply of levels to play. The pre-built ones are nice but it pales in comparison to what the internet could throw at us. Crap or not, obscene or intricate. I don't care. It'll be surprising and will probably include a lot of levels that "do it wrong". Having played Mario games since before I knew what a Nintendo was it'll be nice to have things shaken up a bit. As such I don't understand why people are obsessing about the pre-made levels. Again, if you're worried about how many pre-made levels there are I think you're missing the entire point of the game.
@skywake People are fixated on how many levels are included because the more levels included the better value the game represents. When the rumor of over 100 levels came out it got people excited because of that. Also because the levels included are not like the levels in other mario games because they have the craziness of what can be done with editing tools baked in. These levels are made to show off the potential of creation suite and inspire. I hope you can take these levels and make your own edits to them as well. Playing some of the crazy levels shown off is a big excitement for this game. When they demo the game it is almost all people playing created levels because creating is a more time consuming personal thing not done well in a demonstration situation.
You realise that you'll have access to levels other people have created in any case right? 10, 20, 60 or 100 levels built in you'll have about the same amount of content to enjoy. Which will make the package have about the same value. How are you guys not understanding my point here? I'm not saying I don't want built-in levels. I'm not saying it's "wrong" to be excited about levels created by Michel Ancel. Because it is pretty damn cool. All I'm saying is that the built in levels will be a tiny fraction of the package. Infact I'd be far more excited if they told me that Michel Ancel would be creating levels with a particular NNID and how to follow him.
Actually, I'll just quote myself directly from before I was bombarded with multiple simultaneous jimmy rustling:
TBH I don't understand why everyone is so worked up about how many levels are included in the game. There is basically an infinite supply of levels. What does it matter if it's 100 or 1?
Just gonna agree to disagree. The fact remains the same and that's we're all going to put the the pedal to the metal on opening day and grab Mario Mario like a desperate, hungry honey badger would snag a freshly debuting field mouse. I I'm going to have to request Sep 11th off for sure but if I can just download the game in WII U, might do that.
People getting worked up over me just being confused about why people are even remotely worried about how many levels will be in a level-generating machine of a game....
I was responding to your statement that I was "trying to limit this title and push your opinions on others that don't feel the same". What a load.
What a "load" to remind people that the point of this is to have fun with the overall package, rather than the more limited view you've taken of what's worthwhile here?
You've actually been telling people that they're looking at this all wrong if they happen to be looking forward to playing these pre-made creations that the game is shipping with. Yet I'm the one in the wrong?
All I'm saying is that I don't really understand the obsession with how many levels are built in given the fact that you'll have access to an endless supply of levels. But of course, be pedantic about my response and instead have a go at the fact that I assumed you weren't interested in creating levels when you repeatedly said that you were more interested in playing levels.
Whatever, anyone can go back and read the response that was defending what others said, that started you off on this chirade. Not to mention that I've repeatedly stated that I am interested in the level editor and consider it a key component of this product.
What a "load" to remind people that the point of this is to have fun with the overall package, rather than the more limited view you've taken of what's worthwhile here?
You've actually been telling people that they're looking at this all wrong if they happen to be looking forward to playing these pre-made creations that the game is shipping with. Yet I'm the one in the wrong?
You literally said that I was wanting to "limit" the game and "force my opinions" on others. Which is bull. I don't at all mind how you want to use the game or not use the game. I just couldn't care less how many levels are included in the game or not. That's the only thing I've been saying. I don't understand why people would be even the slightest bit interested in how many levels would be included. The game is literally an endless pit of Mario levels.
Whatever, anyone can go back and read the response that was defending what others said, that started you off on this chirade. Not to mention that I've repeatedly stated that I am interested in the level editor and consider it a key component of this product.
I only asked a question. You were the one who said this in response to me saying "I don't understand":
I was looking forward and remain hopeful, to a huge challenge with the premade levels included with this title. I'll fool around with level creation and likely will download some levels, but it's not the primary appeal here for me. Playing Nintendo-created Mario levels, some of which promises to be the most difficult this franchise has seen, is where the appeal rests for me.
And again, if that's why you're buying this game? I'm not sure if you really get what the major appeal of this title is. Not that it's wrong to want something else but still. I can tell you now that that's not anywhere near the reason why I'm interested in this title. I didn't think anyone was interested in this game for that reason. To me what you've been saying is the equivalent of going to youtube and subscribing to a bunch of TV networks. I mean sure, you can do that, that's perfectly fine.... but if that's what you're doing I'm not sure you've really understood what the entire point of it is.
Now you're taking us in circles, when others have already tried to diffuse things.
Thanks, but no thanks. I'll enjoy this title in my own way. Indeed, the only purpose of me speaking up in the first place was to defend the interest some have in this pre-made levels that will be included with this release, that others see no merit in whatsoever.
That someone is adamant that someone such as myself has it all wrong in looking forward to these, obviously, I can't change it.
@GoneFishin:
I'm not sure that arguing the same point from the same angle consistently is the same as going around in circles. I was merely pointing out that you started this by getting all worked up by me simply asking. For which I got an earful of replies saying that the pre-built levels were the primary appeal of the game for you. Which you've since backtracked on.
Also I don't see what there was to defend. All I did was ask why. Because to me it seems weird that you'd be worried about how many levels will be included in a game built around people sharing levels. I really don't understand how that can be the main appeal. You're literally talking about the one part of the game that's not new at all. As I said in my previous post, the best analogue I could think of would be someone who subscribes to just TV station channels on youtube. You're free to do that, nobody is going to stop you and I don't have a problem if that's how you choose to use it. But if that's why you're getting into it? I don't think you've quite grasped what the whole thing is about.
@GoneFishin:
I'm not sure that arguing the same point from the same angle consistently is the same as going around in circles.
When we've been there and done that, and clearly continue to disagree, I sure think so. I don't see either one of us changing our minds on the importance (Or lack of) of these built-in levels that Nintendo is including. We're just going in circles where one keeps stating that this feature doesn't matter, and the other states the opposite.
But that we can't even settle on that, it appears, certainly confirms that there's little point to continue debating our previous discussion.
Also I don't see what there was to defend. All I did was ask why.
Actually, at least one person voiced the opinion that they care about this. Then you and others posted responses stating that you see no merit in anyone caring about Nintendo including a selection of professionally designed levels with this game.
That's when I posted my support of this feature by stating that it does matter to me. Yet it seems to have been decided that this opinion lacks any merit, for some bizarre reason, despite being an accurate reflection of my interests in this title.
That's what I don't get. I think it's fine for people to be interested in different aspects of this game, which is exactly why I posted my feelings. Yet evidently judging by this thread, it isn't fine.
You get three sections where you can search for levels. There's a list of levels as selected by someone at Nintendo. There's a list of levels sorted based on many people said they liked the level. Then there's just a list of new levels as they're produced. All three lists you can then divide by difficulty and so on. You can also follow users if you really like the sort of levels they're creating. So I don't think there will be any issue at all finding quality levels.
I think it would be fair to assume that given the likely volume of levels the stuff that filters upto the top will be pretty damn good. Given there are modes which will have to play a random level. Most levels will be "created equal". Especially when they're also saying that you can only upload so many levels to start with. You have to create levels that others actually like before you can create more. I don't see any reason to believe that the system won't work.
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"Don't stir the pot" is a nice way of saying "they're too dumb to reason with"
Just to clarify matters though, I've never been worried about having plenty to play. As have many of you, I've been closely following this since it first appeared. I have little doubt that I'm going to find a lot to love about this title.
I posted my responses not out of concern or doubt, but to support the inclusion of a slate of starter levels designed by professionals.
@GoneFishin:
I guess I just have more trust in the hive-mind than you do. I believe that the community will create levels that are better than what the devs could put in the game. Both in terms of quality and volume. And I also trust the hive mind to allow the best stuff to filter up to the top. Just as it tends to do on MiiVerse if you look at some of the posts that come from the more active communities. That's why I couldn't care less about how many levels are "included". Maybe I'm being a bit too optimistic here but still, that's just how I see it.
As for the end-trails of the beginning of this discussion. It started because someone else stated that there wouldn't be the full 100 levels built into the game. Which I then responded to saying that I didn't think that was an issue given that there would be so many other levels to play. It may have even been my first post in this entire thread! I That's when you and @Pahvi disagreed with me followed by a few other other people who backed me up without me saying anything further. There was a page of this before I even read the first response! I didn't mean to start an argument about this. I was merely asking why.
..... and frankly I still don't quite understand why it's such a big deal how many levels are included on the disk
Levels by professionals? Interesting.
Would be a nice comparison to see what they did and compare them to my current levels I have made over the years.
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I think I have somewhere read that one useful approach to having both parties understand the others' points is to describe your understanding of the other's view in your own words (without being confrontational, of course)
Well TBH I'm not sure which angle you guys are coming from. Perhaps it's simply from some sort of scepticism towards the quality of user created levels. Maybe a distrust of the ability of Nintendo's systems to sift through this content for you. Something which I can understand but ultimately don't agree with. If this is what it is then as I said, I think you guys are missing the point of the game. I'm of the mind that I'd probably be fairly happy with some procedurally generated Mario levels. User generated levels that have a ranking system? I can't see how it won't be awesome.
On the other hand maybe it's from another place. Maybe people think that if they're paying for a game that they should a whole pile of levels included in the game. That they shouldn't be allowed to "outsource" their level development to the public. Needless to say I don't really agree with this sentiment either. I don't really care where the levels come from as long as they're there.
The last reasoning I can think of is that maybe people are worried about the long-term of it. Decades from now if you dust off your copy of Super Mario Maker maybe all you'll have are the built in levels. This is probably the strongest argument I can think of. However it's a very long term problem. Plus by the time we get to that point I reckon I would have well and truly got my money's worth out of it. And the same problem exists for a whole bunch of games. It's a far bigger issue for a game like Splatoon for example.
@Pahvi:
I did the same with Pullblox but I don't think the user created levels were bad levels. They were just as good. The main reason I wasn't really interested was because for that game the included levels were enough. Which when combined with the fact that it took a little bit to get into those levels? I didn't bother. I don't think this will be the case with Super Mario Maker. From what they've shown at least it seems far, far quicker.
Also looking back at some of the footage from E3, they actually have recommendations there after you've finished a level. So presumably there's some sort of algorithm going on there. Plus it looks like you can just jump into one of those recommended levels straight after beating a level. Which is pretty cool. The more I look at it them more I'm convinced that I'm on the right side of this discussion TBH
That said, I think there is something to be said about the "Nintendo levels" vs the user generated ones. The more levels I look at the more this seems clear. When Nintendo builds a level they make sure that you can progress. They spend a lot of time making you feel like it's your fault that you can't beat a level. So many of the created levels so far they don't do that. At all. There are a lot of levels where it's pretty much guaranteed that you'll die the first time you play it. So it might end up being a lot more like Rayman or MegaMan than Mario. Which may make it "not Mario" but... I'm not sure if that's a bad thing.
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