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Topic: Is the Wii U a failure?

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Haru17

skywake wrote:

Super Paper Mario wasn't great, certainly not as great as 3D World or Pikmin 3.

Yes, compare the narrative puzzle-platformer to a 3D coop platformer and an RTS why don't you. You understand subjective value, yes you do, yes you do.

Except the Wii U's games are far better than the Wii's, IMO. Not even close. SM3DW > SMG, NSMBU > NSMBW, MK8 > MKWii, DKCTF > DKCR, Smash 4 > all other Smash combined, and from the looks of it, Zelda U is gonna completely crush Skyward Sword.

Yes, gameplay-focused games made by more experienced devs on a more powerful platform tend to be better by popular recognition if all other things are equal. However, you'll notice that I said that the Wii U's library doesn't 'match' and that these Wii games 'have no equal' on Wii U. That's because I'm not arguing that subjective media is 'better.' I'm saying that the Wii U's first party library is not diversified; it has no narrative games. No adventure games like the ones I listed.

So, for all of the incremental improvements to Mario Kart and Smash, Nintendo hasn't made any shiny 1080p 60fps games for the Wii U that appeal to me with the same gameplay or narrative depth that games on their previous platforms did.

UGXwolf wrote:

Also I refuse to accept that anyone calls Twilight Princess a Wii game. It was awful on the Wii. The Gamecube version is way better as it was designed with the GameCube in mind.

Yes, I prefer the button controls too, but unlike ports it launched before the gamecube version, so, cross-gen game :/ Not to mention most people played it on Wii (myself included at first.) That's why it needs to be considered as both, not to mention some nice motion control item use on the Wii.

Edited on by Haru17

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skywake

Haru17 wrote:

skywake wrote:

Super Paper Mario wasn't great, certainly not as great as 3D World or Pikmin 3.

Yes, compare the narrative puzzle-platformer to a 3D coop platformer and an RTS why don't you. You understand subjective value, yes you do, yes you do.

I didn't really enjoy Super Paper Mario. It was nowhere near as good as the N64 Paper Mario and it didn't really do anything interesting IMO. Pikmin 3 on the other hand was a fantastic little RTS. I'd played the original Pikmin and Pimkin 3 took it to a whole new place. Same deal with 3D World which for sure was no Super Mario Galaxy but that's kinda an unfair comparison really. What it did was interesting, it took what Nintendo had done with 3D Land and massively expanded it. It was the first multiplayer platformer I've played that actually felt like it was supposed to be that way. Ignoring the competitive mode in the original New SMB.

Frankly there are quite a lot of games on Wii U I've enjoyed more than Super Paper Mario. Bayonetta 2, Smash Bros, DKC:TF, Mario Kart 8, Wind Waker HD, Captain Toad, Shovel Knight, maybe even Rayman Legends. It'd stop short of saying I enjoyed New SMB U more so that's about as far down the line it is IMO. And it's the game you picked as fourth best for the Wii. Hell, I'm sure I'll enjoy Splatoon more based on yesterday's Direct and I'm hopeful for Xenoblade and Starfox. Subjective for sure but there's no way are you going to convince me that the Wii's library was better. I simply don't agree

Edited on by skywake

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Haru17

skywake wrote:

And it's the game you picked as fourth best for the Wii.

I don't remember assigning them numbers. Anyway, it's one of my favorite games because it's a Paper Mario game that's actually a Paper Mario game, unlike Sticker Star. And it might not have as good of shooting white dudes or jumping on brown ones as other games, but it's mechanics are fun and it's story is more than most games could dream of, not to mention cute.

Don't hate me because I'm bnahabulous.

erv

I like the wii U library a lot though. And I’ve never had so much quality content on a console at such an early stage even. I understand business fine, but I’ll let nintendo sort that out. I’m really enjoying myself with the wii U as much as I did with the gamecube and the n64. The wii was great too, it had awesome games ranging from little kings story to no more heroes and even the known ones like prime and galaxy, but I’m loving the wii U library even more. So much quality. I don’t really get the failure sentiment.

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iKhan

How exactly is TP "awful on Wii"? The pointer controls are far more convenient, being able to run and cut was nice, and the non-intrusive use of motion controls make it the most immersive game in the series.

Super Paper Mario is awesome. It scraps the turn-based gameplay that was boring unless you were starting a level or fighting a boss, and replaced it with a much more engaging action system.

MK8 trashed battle mode, made bikes almost completely pointless, cut back accessibility, weakened the roster, and stuck with MK7's terrible coin system. I have yet to play a track in it as good as Mushroom Gorge, Coconut Mall, DK Summit, Koopa Cape, or Grumble Volcano in MK8's new tracks. Better than MKWii? Nope.

Currently Playing: Steamworld Heist, The Legend of Zelda: Majora's Mask, Tales of Graces F

skywake

Haru17 wrote:

skywake wrote:

And it's the game you picked as fourth best for the Wii.

I don't remember assigning them numbers. Anyway, it's one of my favorite games because it's a Paper Mario game that's actually a Paper Mario game, unlike Sticker Star. And it might not have as good of shooting white dudes or jumping on brown ones as other games, but it's mechanics are fun and it's story is more than most games could dream of, not to mention cute.

Nit-picking mastery unlocked. If you think it's better than any one of Galaxy, Prime or Twilight Princess I disagree even more. Also I didn't mention Sticker Star because I haven't played it and it's a 3DS game so it doesn't even factor into the discussion. The fact is I didn't really enjoy Super Paper Mario anywhere near as much as I have a lot of other games. Plenty of which are on the Wii U. When you go outside of the big Mario, Metroid, Zelda on Wii there isn't much else that the Wii U doesn't do significantly better. You're not going to convince me otherwise, especially it your argument continues to be nothing but random tangents.

iKhan wrote:

MK8 trashed battle mode, made bikes almost completely pointless, cut back accessibility, weakened the roster, and stuck with MK7's terrible coin system. I have yet to play a track in it as good as Mushroom Gorge, Coconut Mall, DK Summit, Koopa Cape, or Grumble Volcano in MK8's new tracks. Better than MKWii? Nope.

It's clearly a matter of opinion. For me none of those tracks you mentioned other than Koopa Cape were that great. IMO Maple Treeway, Daisy Circuit and Bowser's castle where the best tracks and Mario Kart 8's tracks are far more impressive than even those tracks. Even the simple tracks like Mario Kart Stadium are interesting but then you get to tracks like Mount Wario? Insanity. Bowser's Castle is always my favourite track and in Mario Kart 8 they go above and beyond. Then there are the DLC tracks which, other than maybe Super Bell Subway, are all pretty good in their own right.

And the bikes in Mario Kart Wii were OP and broke the game, battle mode I never cared about anyway, the roster is fine and the coin system is something I love as someone who started on the SNES original. I was disappointed that they tore the fantastic time-trial ranking system out of 7 & 8, Mario Kart Wii still stands above all other versions in that regard. But other than that. Don't get me wrong, I loved Mario Kart Wii, Mario Kart is my favourite series bar none. So I'm not trashing the game at all. But Mario Kart 8, flawed as it is in some parts, is easily the best version. Easily. By a country mile.

Edited on by skywake

Some playlists: Top All Time Songs, Top Last Year
"Don't stir the pot" is a nice way of saying "they're too dumb to reason with"

kkslider5552000

iKhan wrote:

Super Paper Mario is awesome. It scraps the turn-based gameplay that was boring unless you were starting a level or fighting a boss, and replaced it with a much more engaging action system.

I'm sure in some way this is true, but in terms of how it was implemented in Super Paper Mario, it was either an easier and less precise battle system or a worse and more awkward platformer. I mean, I guess it is more interesting than Paper Mario 1 combat, but interesting does not equal better.

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iKhan

I had a better platforming experience in SPM than I have in any 2D Mario game except maybe World. That's not to say it's better, I just prefer the style of that game.

@skywake
No, the bikes weren't broken in MKWii (the game didn't become uncompetitive, and there were several bikes per weight class to choose from), they were just poorly balanced vs the Karts. The solution to that is NOT to remove or minimize everything that made bikes unique. That would be like reacting to Meta Knight's broken-ness by turning him into a Pit or Kirby clone. What Nintendo should have done was improved the abilities of Karts or slightly nerfed the benefits of Bikes. Instead they cut out Wheelies entirely and altered Inside Drift so that it didn't help as much.

My big issue with the coin system is that it really hurts the game's balance. It helps the player far out in front, and far in the back. On the other hand, it makes everything incredibly volatile otherwise. Now getting hit by two items in succession not only forces you to stop in the middle of the track, it makes you slower and forces you to concentrate on grabbing another collectible.

Currently Playing: Steamworld Heist, The Legend of Zelda: Majora's Mask, Tales of Graces F

iKhan

I think it's worth noting that Nintendo seems understand that the Wii U is underperforming commercially. Thus, they have shifted their business model to profit in spite of this (Amiibo, Smartphones, Theme Park attractions, licensing, etc)

Currently Playing: Steamworld Heist, The Legend of Zelda: Majora's Mask, Tales of Graces F

skywake

iKhan wrote:

No, the bikes weren't broken in MKWii (the game didn't become uncompetitive, and there were several bikes per weight class to choose from), they were just poorly balanced vs the Karts. The solution to that is NOT to remove or minimize everything that made bikes unique. That would be like reacting to Meta Knight's broken-ness by turning him into a Pit or Kirby clone. What Nintendo should have done was improved the abilities of Karts or slightly nerfed the benefits of Bikes. Instead they cut out Wheelies entirely and altered Inside Drift so that it didn't help as much.

I never played with the Bikes because I didn't really enjoy the handling as much as I do the karts. It was pretty hard to win against people who were using bikes, particularly when you tried the time trials. So you were forced to use the bikes and do the wheelies. I get that some people liked it but as someone who didn't I'm glad they removed it.

iKhan wrote:

My big issue with the coin system is that it really hurts the game's balance. It helps the player far out in front, and far in the back. On the other hand, it makes everything incredibly volatile otherwise. Now getting hit by two items in succession not only forces you to stop in the middle of the track, it makes you slower and forces you to concentrate on grabbing another collectible.

Heaven forbid they make Mario Kart more chaotic. Changing it to only one item in particular and having useless items like coins is one of my favourite changes. Other than the significantly better and larger variety of tracks. There's a lot more risk now if you decide to drop a banana or use a shell when you're ranked higher up. As someone who's regularly high up in the ranks and regularly chooses to take that risk? I love that tension. Nothing better than using a shell before a question block, getting a coin and then being a bit nervous when you hear a red shell coming

Edited on by skywake

Some playlists: Top All Time Songs, Top Last Year
"Don't stir the pot" is a nice way of saying "they're too dumb to reason with"

shaneoh

Haru17 wrote:

shaneoh wrote:

Haru17 wrote:

Xingen wrote:

Technically, anything that you make a profit off of is not a failure. So, no, it wasn't.

Have they made a net profit off of it so far?

And, honestly, you can not make the 'Wii U had a great launch' argument Nintendo game-wise.

Gamecube: Luigi's Mansion, Pikmin, and Melee.
Wii: Twilight Princess and Wii Sports.

Wii U: Nintendo Land and Newnewnewnew Super Mario Bros.

I can, Nintendo Land and NSMBU are good games. (To say nothing of the 3rd party games at launch that were good)

No, you can't argue that the Wii U had a great first party launch, not while maintaining intellectual honesty. It had a 2D platformer and a party game. That was the gripe for years 'Wii U has no games.' And for a while, it was somewhat true.

You're arguing about the genre of the launch games? There isn't a great deal of difference in either of those 3 launches, all had an existing franchise and something new. Wii and Wii U share a launch party game, and the GC and the Wii share an action adventure

The PS3 had no games at launch and for a long time after that. THAT was a joke for years. The Wii U has barely been out for two years and has had a steady stream of good, new, games to the system since launch. There was a small gap of a few months between Nintendo developed games, so what? So I don't know who has been griping to you for the last couple of years about the lack of games, because they certainly haven't been paying any attention to the Wii U

Haru17 wrote:

Obviously plenty of people agree with me here, because the system launched like a bird struck with a rock mid-flight sales-wise.

Untitled
Plenty of people thought the earth was flat and you could fall off the edge, doesn't mean they were right.

When did you switch to sales as the determining factor for the quality of the launch games? Nintendo Land and NSMBU scored an average of 77 and 84 respectively from critics. That is good. Granted there is room for improvement, but anyone who expects a company to be hitting 90+ for every game they make, forgets all the times they haven't been perfect.

skywake wrote:

The fact is I didn't really enjoy Super Paper Mario anywhere near as much as I have a lot of other games.

I thought SPM was rather dull

Edited on by shaneoh

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Octane

It's all a matter of opinion. We all know that you @Haru17 prefer story driven games / games with a strong narrative. If you look at it that way, yes I'd say that Twilight Princess, Metroid Prime 3 and Ōkami are collectively better than the story driven games on the Wii U, which are... Pikmin 3... and? Wind Waker HD, a GameCube port. And yes I consider Twilight Princess a Wii game, it was released on the Wii first, it plays fine and the controls are intuitive, there's nothing wrong with the Wii version.

Personally I think that most Wii U games are way better than their Wii counterparts. Mario Kart 8 is way better then MK Wii in my opinion. SSBU is better than Brawl, and I prefer Tropical Freeze over Returns. I still prefer Galaxy over 3D World, but that's about it. With great games like Pikmin 3, Hyrule Warriors and so on, I think that the Wii U overall already matches the Wii library, certainly once Splatoon and Yoshi are released.

That being said, I do think that the Wii had a lot of smaller titles that were great, but didn't really stand out. A lot of third party titles, like Zack & Wiki, Eledees, or even first party titles such as Sin & Punishment.

Both are great systems, but I start to like my Wii U a little bit more.

Octane

bitleman

Man if I listened the people who call failure anything that doesn't break the charts I would have never get a Dreamcast, a PSP or a Gamecube and I would have never played some of the best games I've ever played.
So don't listen internet propaganda and play the games you want to play. It's just videogames.

bitleman

CaviarMeths

I think iKhan got lost looking for the Unpopular Opinions thread to post his thoughts on Mario Kart and Twilight Princess.

Anyway, I shamelessly stole some graphs from gaf.

Nintendo Gaming Operating Income
Sony Gaming Operating Income

Some things to note, those 3 years of losses for Nintendo were the first in the company's history as a games developer. They were also relatively small losses. Nothing damning on the scale of mid-late 90s Sega. Also notice how the company was most profitable (by a ludicrously huge margin) with Iwata as president. He also managed to reverse downward trends mid-generation with both the Gamecube and the Wii U, something Yamauchi never even managed once. So yeah, people who call for Iwata's resignation can feel free to stop any time now.

On the second chart, just a quick note about the visual representation that the PS3 was so disastrous that it not only wiped out all of the profit made on PS2, but it cut into the PS1's profit too. It's not all bad though. Note the steady increase in 2011 and return to profitability. That took a lot of hard work and should be commended and celebrated. Late gen support for the PS3 was phenomenal.

Edited on by CaviarMeths

So Anakin kneels before Monster Mash and pledges his loyalty to the graveyard smash.

iKhan

CaviarMeths wrote:

I think iKhan got lost looking for the Unpopular Opinions thread to post his thoughts on Mario Kart and Twilight Princess.

Or maybe, instead of trying to decide which games "count", I'm actually trying to have a discussion as to which games from each system are better and why.

Also, TP's motion controls being good isn't unpopular. At launch, the game was praised for the most part for it's use of motion controls. It's just become the cool thing as of late to hate on the Wii and motion controls, and a vocal minority has called out TP Wii because of that.

Edited on by iKhan

Currently Playing: Steamworld Heist, The Legend of Zelda: Majora's Mask, Tales of Graces F

skywake

Octane wrote:

It's all a matter of opinion. We all know that you @Haru17 prefer story driven games / games with a strong narrative. If you look at it that way, yes I'd say that Twilight Princess, Metroid Prime 3 and Ōkami are collectively better than the story driven games on the Wii U, which are... Pikmin 3... and? Wind Waker HD, a GameCube port.

Linear, story driven games are great and all that but. Meh. Sometimes I just want to play with games. Infact more often than not that's what I want to do. And it's in that sense that I've really enjoyed the content that's been on the Wii U. If I want a long story driven game I'll dig into my backlog on Steam. If I want to sit back and enjoy a story then Netflix will probably do an even better job of giving me a story fix. There's plenty there. But most of the time I just want to play with or in a virtual world.

That's why GTA is one of the best games out there. Not because of the story but because of the chaos and the ability to mess around in that world. Same with Mario Kart where you just drop into an online match and kill 30mins here or there. Or even some of the best Nintendo games like Zelda. The best part of Wind Waker wasn't any particular boss, it was the atmosphere. The tight controls and combat. THAT'S why I play games... and the Wii U has buckets of it.

Edited on by skywake

Some playlists: Top All Time Songs, Top Last Year
"Don't stir the pot" is a nice way of saying "they're too dumb to reason with"

Octane

skywake wrote:

Octane wrote:

It's all a matter of opinion. We all know that you Haru17 prefer story driven games / games with a strong narrative. If you look at it that way, yes I'd say that Twilight Princess, Metroid Prime 3 and Ōkami are collectively better than the story driven games on the Wii U, which are... Pikmin 3... and? Wind Waker HD, a GameCube port.

Linear, story driven games are great and all that but. Meh. Sometimes I just want to play with games. Infact more often than not that's what I want to do. And it's in that sense that I've really enjoyed the content that's been on the Wii U. If I want a long story driven game I'll dig into my backlog on Steam. If I want to sit back and enjoy a story then Netflix will probably do an even better job of giving me a story fix. There's plenty there. But most of the time I just want to play with or in a virtual world.

That's why GTA is one of the best games out there. Not because of the story but because of the chaos and the ability to mess around in that world. Same with Mario Kart where you just drop into an online match and kill 30mins here or there. Or even some of the best Nintendo games like Zelda. The best part of Wind Waker wasn't any particular boss, it was the atmosphere. The tight controls and combat. THAT'S why I play games... and the Wii U has buckets of it.

Oh yes, I completely agree. Platformer / Adventure games are probably my favourite genre. I don't mind a good story, but it doesn't hurt the game if there isn't one either.

Octane

CaviarMeths

Wii U outsold PS4 in Japan this week, so it's got that going for it, which is nice.

So Anakin kneels before Monster Mash and pledges his loyalty to the graveyard smash.

unrandomsam

The only opinions that have any value for questions like is TP best on the GC or Wii are people who have at least played both.

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PaperMario64

I was way more enthusiastic in the past when it came to gaming.
When I look back, I think: "Those were the good times".
(I must be getting old. I'm beginning to sound like an old man)

But I will take a step back and try too look past the nostalgia.
With that said, I will conclude that Nintendo Wii U is a failure.

The console has a lot of great games and some might argue the new games are better then those on past systems.
What you overlook when making this statement is that MOST games that is just an upgraded installment in the series is in almost any case "better".

This is not an absolute rule, there is of course no guarantee that the game will get better.
But it's safe to say this as a general guideline.

By upgraded installment I'm referring to games like The Wind Waker HD, SSB4 and Mario Kart 8.

Let's take Mario Kart as an example. Besides the online and better graphics, there are some that will find Double Dash to be a superior game. As for TWW HD, nobody (I think) would argue that the original is better. And as for SSB there hasn't really been that much change.

Besides expanding the already well established flagship titles that would NO DOUBT come out on the console, there are not many NEW GROUNDBREAKING games for the Wii U.

When The Wind Waker came for GameCube it blew everyone minds. Tales of Symphonia was absolutely fantastic! (Which brings out the lack of third party that is a completely different subject all together) Where is Tales of Xillia and Tales of Zestria? Those games would fit perfect to Wii U! There was also Super Mario Sunshine, new Paper Mario, and we got so many other games like Super Mario Strikers, Mario Golf Toadstool Tour etc. There are no games like that on Wii U.

Metroid Prime (which was the first 3D metroid), Animal Crossing, Battalion Wars, Pikmin, Eternal Darkness...
The list goes on.
Many games was also completely new concepts and not just an "upgrade" like Pikmin 3, SSB, Mario Kart and TWW is on Wii U.
And let's face it, the "upgrades" are the best games out there.

There is a lot of great things with the Wii U. I have only pointed out some flaws with the game library. On the other hand the system is still young and there are more games coming out like Splatoon and XCX. Will it surpass the Wii and GameCube when it comes to library? I would guess not.

But the times has changed and Wii U is pretty close with Xbox One.
The Wii U has features that blows all the past systems away. (HDMI, GamePad, Online etc.)
The library, not so much.

Wii U is in my opinion a great console, but is not so great I would say it surpasses past systems.

PaperMario64

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