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Topic: Is the Wii U a failure?

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skywake

Haru17 wrote:

Mario, or as it is more colloquially known, 'Super Mario Bros.' (brothers) is an incredibly complex and intricate beast. You see, you jump. Sometimes you even jump on things. Sometimes the things are enemies, but sometimes they are other players. When you jump on other players -and do try to follow me here- they are adversely affected. Some of the affected may develop what they term as 'beef' with those that jump upon them. Now, we have detected no increased levels of protein nor bos taurus DNA or RNA within the players citing 'beef,' but we have seen an increase in aggression patterns.

Further study is required, as well as the application of NASA's research grants. After all, Nintendo games are rocket science.

I know this is going to fall on deaf ears because you've made a habit of always arguing with me. Whatever the topic or thread. I'm apparently always wrong in your eyes even when I'm not talking about the same thing.

In any case. In all my years of playing games I don't think there has been a single game that I could comment on in depth before playing it. Especially a game where the mechanics of the game are what defines it. For example with Splatoon I had seen all of the trailers, I had watched gameplay footage but I didn't really know how the game played. Of course I understood what the game was and what the objective was but I hadn't actually moved that character. Once I had played the demo? Then I understood. After the demo I even looked at some of the previous footage in a new light. Games are interactive entertainment, that's just how it is.

With New SMB and 3D World? The co-op in those games is words apart and you wouldn't know it from footage. New SMB is far more of a competitive game when played with others, you're constantly fighting to stay on the platforms. New SMB multiplayer is like trying to guide a bouncy ball through a narrow corridor. 3D World is nothing like that, 3D World is more like having a bunch of people just playing the same level at once. If you want to move forward you kinda have to communicate well, the fun comes from that communication inevitably breaking down. Then there's the double-cherry which is kinda like playing a ball-maze. It's a multiplayer, social, argumentative, co-op Mario themed ball maze.

Now you can pretend you understood this already. You can claim that it was all obvious from the trailers right down to how the momentum feels when moving these characters. Or how you feel when trying to be the hero but then failing and pulling everyone down with you. How fun that is. But you don't know, because you haven't played it.

Edited on by skywake

Some playlists: Top All Time Songs, Top Last Year
"Don't stir the pot" is a nice way of saying "they're too dumb to reason with"

Haru17

skywake wrote:

I know this is going to fall on deaf ears because you've made a habit of always arguing with me. Whatever the topic or thread. I'm apparently always wrong in your eyes even when I'm not talking about the same thing.

Something-something massive gravitational ego, something-something Galileo.

3D World is trying very hard to be 3D NSMB. from the way power ups work to the very game-y level design. It makes Galaxy look like an RPG.

Anyway, I haven't seen a single trailer of 3D World, but rather some let's play videos. Because it isn't 2004 anymore.

It does make me wonder, though; why blue toad and not Daisy? Surely she's a more interesting character; visually, if nothing else. SM sure has a lot of bench players that appropriately only come out for the sports games.

Don't hate me because I'm bnahabulous.

skywake

Haru17 wrote:

skywake wrote:

I know this is going to fall on deaf ears because you've made a habit of always arguing with me. Whatever the topic or thread. I'm apparently always wrong in your eyes even when I'm not talking about the same thing.

Something-something massive gravitational ego, something-something Galileo.

3D World is trying very hard to be 3D NSMB. from the way power ups work to the very game-y level design. It makes Galaxy look like an RPG.

Anyway, I haven't seen a single trailer of 3D World, but rather some let's play videos. Because it isn't 2004 anymore.

It does make me wonder, though; why blue toad and not Daisy? Surely she's a more interesting character; visually, if nothing else. SM sure has a lot of bench players that appropriately only come out for the sports games.

Again, you'll always find some BS reason to ignore what someone else has said in an effort to make them "wrong". At this point I think I'll just point out that you've looked at this game so little that you haven't even seen any of the trailers. Well done, I don't think you even need that shovel.

Also as someone who did keep up with gaming news in 2004? There weren't really game trailers back then. There wasn't really the sort of infrastructure to support it at least not to the scale there was in 2005, 2006 and beyond. In 2002 for example you maybe got one you could download and watch. More likely you got one on a CD on the front of a magazine if at all. 2005 was the birth of Youtube, 2004 was a bit of a joke for online video distribution. There are far more trailers now than there were in 2004, there are even trailers for small indie titles now. They throw them right on the store for you even. Get a clue mate

Edited on by skywake

Some playlists: Top All Time Songs, Top Last Year
"Don't stir the pot" is a nice way of saying "they're too dumb to reason with"

erv

I know what it's like to live on a farm in tibet because I have googled some pictures and know what 2 degrees celcius feels like.

There, crossed that off my bucket list. Perhaps this afternoon I can experience what it's like to be president of the usa. I'll watch one of them speeches. And a movie with men in suits. I'll even research what suit I'd wear.

Life is such a rollercoaster!

Switch code: SW-0397-5211-6428
PlayStation: genetic-eternal

Nintendo Network ID: genet1c

Bolt_Strike

skywake wrote:

In any case. In all my years of playing games I don't think there has been a single game that I could comment on in depth before playing it. Especially a game where the mechanics of the game are what defines it. For example with Splatoon I had seen all of the trailers, I had watched gameplay footage but I didn't really know how the game played. Of course I understood what the game was and what the objective was but I hadn't actually moved that character. Once I had played the demo? Then I understood. After the demo I even looked at some of the previous footage in a new light. Games are interactive entertainment, that's just how it is.

Move the character? As in you press a button and the character moves? Wow, such witchcraft!

We could talk all day about the technical aspects about how a game "feels", but in the end not a whole lot of people are going to care (mainly speedrunners). Most people are going to look at the actions and abilities, not the physics. And you shouldn't be having trouble understanding the actions and abilities you can perform without playing.

skywake wrote:

With New SMB and 3D World? The co-op in those games is words apart and you wouldn't know it from footage. New SMB is far more of a competitive game when played with others, you're constantly fighting to stay on the platforms. New SMB multiplayer is like trying to guide a bouncy ball through a narrow corridor. 3D World is nothing like that, 3D World is more like having a bunch of people just playing the same level at once. If you want to move forward you kinda have to communicate well, the fun comes from that communication inevitably breaking down. Then there's the double-cherry which is kinda like playing a ball-maze. It's a multiplayer, social, argumentative, co-op Mario themed ball maze.

Now you can pretend you understood this already. You can claim that it was all obvious from the trailers right down to how the momentum feels when moving these characters. Or how you feel when trying to be the hero but then failing and pulling everyone down with you. How fun that is. But you don't know, because you haven't played it.

Again, not something a lot of people are going to notice or care about. It functions similarly between the 2D and 3D games in terms of mechanics, so not many people are going to be able to distinguish it from one game or the other.

Most people are probably going to be looking at things like what characters are playable, what are their abilities, what powerups are in the game, how you progress through the game, etc. And the 2D games and 3D Land/3D World are very similar in those aspects.

Bolt_Strike

Switch Friend Code: SW-5621-4055-5722 | 3DS Friend Code: 4725-8075-8961 | Nintendo Network ID: Bolt_Strike

UGXwolf

Haru17 wrote:

It does make me wonder, though; why blue toad and not Daisy? Surely she's a more interesting character; visually, if nothing else. SM sure has a lot of bench players that appropriately only come out for the sports games.

Well, for one, Daisy is a palette swap of Peach. She offers no variety, which blue Toad does. Second, it's blue Toad as a reference to Super Mario Bros. 2 where the four playable characters were Mario, Luigi, Peach, and blue Toad. This was also to make a challenge character. Someone with whom the game would get very challenging, but the reward for it is better times. Blue Toad fits simply because he's a character for which a low, short jump made sense, and running faster also made sense.

As for the bench players, it's worth pointing out that most of them are call backs to the NES and SNES and even GB titles, with Waluigi being the biggest standout (and he wasn't even made by Nintendo. He was made by Camelot... for Mario Tennis... no wonder.)

A nifty calendar (Updated 9/13/15)
The UGXloggery ... really needs an update.

skywake

Bolt_Strike wrote:

skywake wrote:

In any case. In all my years of playing games I don't think there has been a single game that I could comment on in depth before playing it. Especially a game where the mechanics of the game are what defines it. For example with Splatoon I had seen all of the trailers, I had watched gameplay footage but I didn't really know how the game played. Of course I understood what the game was and what the objective was but I hadn't actually moved that character. Once I had played the demo? Then I understood. After the demo I even looked at some of the previous footage in a new light. Games are interactive entertainment, that's just how it is.

Move the character? As in you press a button and the character moves? Wow, such witchcraft!

Yet again, lets take the simplest of thoughts out of context entirely and assume that's all that I meant. Distil it until there is no resemblance to the original though. There are only so many comparisons I can make and I know you guys are going to trivialise the hell out of all of them. So again, it's like the difference between reading the rules of chess and actually playing a game. You can understand how the pieces move, you can guess how the game plays. You probably have enough information at that point to guess whether it's a game you'd like to play. But until you've actually played a game you have no idea what the game is actually like. And that's with chess, a game like Splatoon is far more complex.

You don't understand how the game actually plays until you've actually interacted with it. Particularly with something like 3D World or Splatoon because those games are only interesting because of the way they play. For sure, some games don't do anything interesting. You can probably guess how the next New SMB will play. If someone releases another match-3 puzzle game? It's pretty obvious how it'll play if you've tried something similar. But a game like Splatoon or 3D World? Or a game like FTL, Papers Please or Affordable Space Adventures? If you haven't played them before you really don't know what they're about. A Lets Play is no substitute for actually playing the game.

Edited on by skywake

Some playlists: Top All Time Songs, Top Last Year
"Don't stir the pot" is a nice way of saying "they're too dumb to reason with"

LzWinky

Haru17 wrote:

Mario, or as it is more colloquially known, 'Super Mario Bros.' (brothers) is an incredibly complex and intricate beast. You see, you jump. Sometimes you even jump on things. Sometimes the things are enemies, but sometimes they are other players. When you jump on other players -and do try to follow me here- they are adversely affected. Some of the affected may develop what they term as 'beef' with those that jump upon them. Now, we have detected no increased levels of protein nor bos taurus DNA or RNA within the players citing 'beef,' but we have seen an increase in aggression patterns.

Further study is required, as well as the application of NASA's research grants. After all, Nintendo games are rocket science.

And you are a junk scientist who makes a career out of spouting nonsense with nothing to back your claims up. You've thrown away all credibility by admitting that you have no Wii U and have never played these games.

Current games: Everything on Switch

Switch Friend Code: SW-5075-7879-0008 | My Nintendo: LzWinky | Nintendo Network ID: LzWinky

DefHalan

DefHalan wrote:

Bolt_Strike wrote:

DefHalan wrote:

Saying a game that you haven't played is bad is the same as saying a movie you haven't seen is bad. You cannot fairly judge a product without experiencing it. Watching someone else play a game or hearing about the movie from a friend does not guve you proper perspective to fully judge the product. You can say those certain products haven't caught your attention and that is why you have not played them, but trying to say a game is bad because cosmetically they didn't do anything different is like saying Fast Five must be bad because 2Fast 2Furious was bad. You need to experience a product before judging it. The only judgement you can give it without experiencing it, is the judgement on whether it looks interesting. If it doesn't catch your eye then it is a failure of marketing, whether or not the product is good or bad. I hope that made sense, wroteit on my phone after just waking up lol

Except in video games, the experience is different. The only part of the game that really needs to be experienced the way it's meant to is the controls, and controls aren't exactly the most defining aspect of a game. You can objectively judge things like level design and gameplay by watching them because you can see those aspects play out in videos.

Also, in entertainment "interesting" and "good" practically go hand in hand. Whether or not a game is interesting is a major component in the game's quality since that's the purpose of the game in the first place.

Interesting and good do not go hand in hand. There are plenty of interesting games that aren't good and plenty of good games that aren't interesting. Watching a video of a game doesn't give you the experience. You experiencing the mechanics while progressing through the level design is going to be a different experience than watching someone else do that. This is why Designers are encouraged to watch as many people as possible play their games. Different people will experience the game in different ways. You do not get the same experience when you just watch.

I feel like this was skipped earlier and the topic has come up... yet again. So I think I need to repost this lol

Edited on by DefHalan

People keep saying the Xbox One doesn't have Backwards Compatibility.
I don't think they know what Backwards Compatibility means...

3DS Friend Code: 2621-2786-9784 | Nintendo Network ID: DefHalan

Haru17

UGXwolf wrote:

Haru17 wrote:

It does make me wonder, though; why blue toad and not Daisy? Surely she's a more interesting character; visually, if nothing else. SM sure has a lot of bench players that appropriately only come out for the sports games.

Well, for one, Daisy is a palette swap of Peach. She offers no variety, which blue Toad does. Second, it's blue Toad as a reference to Super Mario Bros. 2 where the four playable characters were Mario, Luigi, Peach, and blue Toad. This was also to make a challenge character. Someone with whom the game would get very challenging, but the reward for it is better times. Blue Toad fits simply because he's a character for which a low, short jump made sense, and running faster also made sense.

As for the bench players, it's worth pointing out that most of them are call backs to the NES and SNES and even GB titles, with Waluigi being the biggest standout (and he wasn't even made by Nintendo. He was made by Camelot... for Mario Tennis... no wonder.)

Huh, Waluigi and Daisy forever alone.

Don't hate me because I'm bnahabulous.

UGXwolf

Haru17 wrote:

UGXwolf wrote:

Haru17 wrote:

It does make me wonder, though; why blue toad and not Daisy? Surely she's a more interesting character; visually, if nothing else. SM sure has a lot of bench players that appropriately only come out for the sports games.

Well, for one, Daisy is a palette swap of Peach. She offers no variety, which blue Toad does. Second, it's blue Toad as a reference to Super Mario Bros. 2 where the four playable characters were Mario, Luigi, Peach, and blue Toad. This was also to make a challenge character. Someone with whom the game would get very challenging, but the reward for it is better times. Blue Toad fits simply because he's a character for which a low, short jump made sense, and running faster also made sense.

As for the bench players, it's worth pointing out that most of them are call backs to the NES and SNES and even GB titles, with Waluigi being the biggest standout (and he wasn't even made by Nintendo. He was made by Camelot... for Mario Tennis... no wonder.)

Huh, Waluigi and Daisy forever alone.

Aaaaand that's why people ship them. :V

A nifty calendar (Updated 9/13/15)
The UGXloggery ... really needs an update.

Eel

There's also the fact both are interested in flowers and are usually found together or close to each other in the games they appear in.

Anyway, Daisy is less of a Peach recolor and more of an unused blank character. They could do good things with her, if they cared enough.

Edited on by Eel

Bloop.

<My slightly less dead youtube channel>

SMM2 Maker ID: 69R-F81-NLG

My Nintendo: Abgarok | Nintendo Network ID: Abgarok

Bolt_Strike

skywake wrote:

Yet again, lets take the simplest of thoughts out of context entirely and assume that's all that I meant. Distil it until there is no resemblance to the original though. There are only so many comparisons I can make and I know you guys are going to trivialise the hell out of all of them. So again, it's like the difference between reading the rules of chess and actually playing a game. You can understand how the pieces move, you can guess how the game plays. You probably have enough information at that point to guess whether it's a game you'd like to play. But until you've actually played a game you have no idea what the game is actually like. And that's with chess, a game like Splatoon is far more complex.

You can't be serious. Not at all, chess is entirely about what moves you make. The experience isn't going to give you any greater an understanding of the game before you started. The rules of the game are by far the most defining aspect of any game, video or not.

skywake wrote:

You don't understand how the game actually plays until you've actually interacted with it. Particularly with something like 3D World or Splatoon because those games are only interesting because of the way they play. For sure, some games don't do anything interesting. You can probably guess how the next New SMB will play. If someone releases another match-3 puzzle game? It's pretty obvious how it'll play if you've tried something similar. But a game like Splatoon or 3D World? Or a game like FTL, Papers Please or Affordable Space Adventures? If you haven't played them before you really don't know what they're about. A Lets Play is no substitute for actually playing the game.

Oh please, 3D World is no different in terms of gameplay mechanics from NSMB. The jump to 3D doesn't bring about any new abilities that have a significant impact on the game or have you play the game any differently from NSMB. And I've played 3D Land, so I know this firsthand. As for Splatoon, they're not interesting because of the way they play, it's specifically because of the mechanics.

LztheQuack wrote:

And you are a junk scientist who makes a career out of spouting nonsense with nothing to back your claims up. You've thrown away all credibility by admitting that you have no Wii U and have never played these games.

Nonsense. As long as he's right, it doesn't matter. All the "you haven't played it" line does is shut down discussion unnecessarily.

Edited on by Bolt_Strike

Bolt_Strike

Switch Friend Code: SW-5621-4055-5722 | 3DS Friend Code: 4725-8075-8961 | Nintendo Network ID: Bolt_Strike

UGXwolf

Bolt_Strike wrote:

skywake wrote:

Yet again, lets take the simplest of thoughts out of context entirely and assume that's all that I meant. Distil it until there is no resemblance to the original though. There are only so many comparisons I can make and I know you guys are going to trivialise the hell out of all of them. So again, it's like the difference between reading the rules of chess and actually playing a game. You can understand how the pieces move, you can guess how the game plays. You probably have enough information at that point to guess whether it's a game you'd like to play. But until you've actually played a game you have no idea what the game is actually like. And that's with chess, a game like Splatoon is far more complex.

You can't be serious. Not at all, chess is entirely about what moves you make. The experience isn't going to give you any greater an understanding of the game before you started. The rules of the game are by far the most defining aspect of any game, video or not.

skywake wrote:

You don't understand how the game actually plays until you've actually interacted with it. Particularly with something like 3D World or Splatoon because those games are only interesting because of the way they play. For sure, some games don't do anything interesting. You can probably guess how the next New SMB will play. If someone releases another match-3 puzzle game? It's pretty obvious how it'll play if you've tried something similar. But a game like Splatoon or 3D World? Or a game like FTL, Papers Please or Affordable Space Adventures? If you haven't played them before you really don't know what they're about. A Lets Play is no substitute for actually playing the game.

Oh please, 3D World is no different in terms of gameplay mechanics from NSMB. The jump to 3D doesn't bring about any new abilities that have a significant impact on the game or have you play the game any differently from NSMB. And I've played 3D Land, so I know this firsthand. As for Splatoon, they're not interesting because of the way they play, it's specifically because of the mechanics.

facepalm You're seriously the most dense person I've had any discussion with that wasn't trolling. You actually believe this! For crying out loud, mechanics are a massive part of what make up gameplay. They're something you can't fully understand until you actually play the game.

And about Chess, that's a game you can read about all you want, even listen to master strategies, but until you play it, you won't ever understand how the game actually works because the rules aren't the major component of the game. The mental battle between you and your opponent is. It's about mind games and action vs. reaction. You're talking about a game in which experts that have been playing for their entire lives a game that has existed for centuries amd they still aren't entirely sire whether it's better to go first or last and you think you can understand it without ever sitting at the board?!?! Get over yourself.

And for the twentieth time, no 3D World doesn't play like NSMB and no, playing 3D Land doesn't give you the authority to say it does because believe it or not, 3D World isn't just 3D Land with more characters.

Further, if his comment had made a point worth making and not a super sarcastic way of saying that video games aren't rocket science, that comment would have a point. But thus far, neother you nor he are entirely right about any of these points and the reason is painfully clear. You can't understand a game without playing it. You just think you can. the only times you can are when the game literally doesn't change between iterations, but I'm sorry to say that you're wrong about the games you're claiming haven't changed.

Edited on by UGXwolf

A nifty calendar (Updated 9/13/15)
The UGXloggery ... really needs an update.

bezerker99

I came here to say that I think chess is more complex than Splatoon.

No, I didn't play the demo but I'm still going to comment on it...

UGXwolf

bezerker99 wrote:

I came here to say that I think chess is more complex than Splatoon.

No, I didn't play the demo but I'm still going to comment on it...

That depends on what ou define as complexity. Personally, I agree because the strategies in Chess are far more of a gray area and far less solid than those in Splatoon requiring more than skill to win. However, if you define complex as having more to it, chess is literally a checkered board with 36 solid figures on it. Splatoon is a disc-based game with thousands of hours of work put into it collectively from a decent-sized group of people ranging from model design to sound design to storyboarding to net coding.

A nifty calendar (Updated 9/13/15)
The UGXloggery ... really needs an update.

Bolt_Strike

UGXwolf wrote:

facepalm You're seriously the most dense person I've had any discussion with that wasn't trolling. You actually believe this! For crying out loud, mechanics are a massive part of what make up gameplay. They're something you can't fully understand until you actually play the game.

Mechanics are a massive part of what make up the gameplay, but you can entirely understand them without playing. Mechanics are comparable to the rules of chess, they define what you do and what you can't do.

UGXwolf wrote:

And about Chess, that's a game you can read about all you want, even listen to master strategies, but until you play it, you won't ever understand how the game actually works because the rules aren't the major component of the game. The mental battle between you and your opponent is. It's about mind games and action vs. reaction. You're talking about a game in which experts that have been playing for their entire lives a game that has existed for centuries amd they still aren't entirely sire whether it's better to go first or last and you think you can understand it without ever sitting at the board?!?! Get over yourself.

The mental aspect boils down to a series of moves though, and you can analyze those possibilities without having to actually play. Experts became experts not purely because of experience, but because they were able to learn what moves to do and what moves not to do. I could play chess for 30 years and not improve one iota if I don't learn the strategies.

Bolt_Strike

Switch Friend Code: SW-5621-4055-5722 | 3DS Friend Code: 4725-8075-8961 | Nintendo Network ID: Bolt_Strike

bezerker99

UGXwolf wrote:

bezerker99 wrote:

I came here to say that I think chess is more complex than Splatoon.

No, I didn't play the demo but I'm still going to comment on it...

That depends on what ou define as complexity. Personally, I agree because the strategies in Chess are far more of a gray area and far less solid than those in Splatoon requiring more than skill to win. However, if you define complex as having more to it, chess is literally a checkered board with 36 solid figures on it. Splatoon is a disc-based game with thousands of hours of work put into it collectively from a decent-sized group of people ranging from model design to sound design to storyboarding to net coding.

EDIT: The strategy of chess is more complex......

NintendoFan64

Bolt_Strike wrote:

Mechanics are a massive part of what make up the gameplay, but you can entirely understand them without playing. Mechanics are comparable to the rules of chess, they define what you do and what you can't do.

You kinda have to play the game before saying anything, though. If you haven't played the game,you really can't have an opinion on it. That'd be like me saying I hate Popeye's without ever going into a Popeye's.

There is nothing here...except for the stuff I just typed...

3DS Friend Code: 5284-1716-7555 | Nintendo Network ID: michaelmcepic

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