Topic: Does the Kinect-less Xbox One mean anything for the Wii U?

The problem with the GamePad is that it doesn't add a purchase incentive equal to its cost. Some people love it for off-TV play, but there are many others who couldn't care less about off-TV play. Meanwhile, Nintendo has done a horrible job of integrating it into games in a compelling way, save for Nintendoland. So you've got this peripheral that is raising the purchase price by $80 or so but not providing an equivalent value to all purchasers. Even for games such as Watchdogs or Rayman, there aren't many people willing to ditch the PS4 or the Xbox One versions for GamePad-specific features.

The wiiu isnt as expensive as Ps4 or xbone 250 to 300$ compared to 400 and up that means they could have easily added the extra powerful hardware , the wiiU could have been priced at 450 and been more powerful then ps4 or xbone

The gamepad is fine considering the competition and what it costs to do business, nintendo made the right call they just have atleast 100 to 200$ that could have went towards making the wiiu more powerful but that doesn't mean that nintendo couldnt release an add on for the wiiu to make it stronger I just believe the resolution war is null and void considering the games we are getting still look l8ke last gen anyway!

1. Why does it need to be brand new for it to be a valuable addition? The analogue stick isn't new but you don't see people ranting about how it should be removed because it's not innovative any more. That second screen is a useful addition regardless of how new it is. It works on the DS, it works on the Wii U.
2. You don't. Good, you agree. End of discussion then
3. The cost of a replacement not intended for individual sale is not the same as the BOM cost of the component itself

There has never been a peripheral add-on that found it self used ubiquitously in gameplay. There is simply too much risk, as you essentially cut the install base that a developer needs to develop for. That's the reason things like the Gamepad or Wii Remote shouldn't be immediately dropped unless they aren't being utilized in new gameplay.

It's not about resolution, it's about advancing with technology. More power was instrumental in making 3D graphics a thing in the 5th generation. I agree that the effects aren't as big any more, we kind of have diminishing returns in that regard, but they still do contribute to gameplay. But you are right, they didn't necessarily have to invest in it. The problem is that what they did choose to invest in, the Gamepad, fails to offer an alternative new gameplay.

1. It doesn't. If it's cheap we should accumulate new additions moving forward. However, the Gamepad was what was supposed to make the Wii U "next-gen", in other words to differentiate the Gameplay from the previous generation. It was a major high cost investment similar to the boosted power of the PS4. So "valuable addition" is not what we are looking for, we are looking for "New/ Next-Gen ideas". I'm okay with this not being power, hence why the Wii and 3DS are my favorite console and handheld respectively, but it needs to offer an experience of equal or greater novelty.
3. True, but it's still a close estimation.

When I say add on I mean like sega32x model or remember the rumble pak nintendo made to help the N64, I see that nintendo still has the potential to be great they really have to stop marketing to children, while making kids want to have your console is important, today's kids aren't treated as such hence they get the mature systems that involve killing. Nintendo needs to realize kids don't buy consoles the parents the adults and teenagers with jobs do, mario is a legend but you need to market other key figures, kids want halo and CoD also their young minds are easily persuaded by others if other kids or brother or cousin has it they are going to want it. Some people can afford to buy all three but the little ones are gonna see older brother or sister or who ever with a xbone or ps4 and say they want that first before they say they want a wiiu, marketing to the crowd that actually buys cool stuff is smarter, bringing back old school ip's with new gameplay and updated graphics is smart, This is the Best one continuing to make sequels that were Big successes on the wii is smart how hard would it have been to make an HD sequel to red steel 2 or no more heroes 2. Instead don't take this the wrong way, we get classics that were already released on the wii shop! We get remakes, I love the system but im not coughing up dough to play games I already beat years ago and I know quite a few people feel the same! Why keep the wii remote as functional controllers for the wiiu if you aren't going to utilize them like you would for the wii, they are still here and now that everyone has gotten used to them might as well continue to grow the tech!

@burning_spear

This I agree with 100%. It is why I think if they could reasonably make the gamepad optional to the point where it can still play a large library of games on the system that it would be the wise move.

The console is struggling and the gamepad clearly has not been helping it. Lowering cost and releasing more games is the best thing they can do moving forward. Maybe it is just too much trouble and they fear it would cause too much confusion to release a version of the console with out the gamepad at this point.

Whatever the case, even though I love my Wii U and my gamepad, Nintendo clearly made a mistake when they decided to go all in on the gamepad. This is made worse by them not being able to figure out what to do with the thing once they got it out there.

What games have asymmetric gameplay, one of the big selling points of second screen gaming, outside of Nintendoland?

Really I just want system functions to not be tied to the gamepad unnecessarily. It makes it a better more usable console. A no gamepad Wii U is not something I would buy and I guess I don't really care if the Wii U is not a commercial success as long as I get the games I wanted when I bought it. I think it might help some who have been on the fence about the system however. At least it would unofficially be optional at that point and some of those fence sitters may realize through the interwebs they can play the games they are interested in by buying the console for around $100 (what I see them on ebay for with out the gamepad) and a pro controller.

I know, the 32X was a commercial failure, because like I said developers had no confidence that enough people had the device. The Rumble pak is a bit different in that it was low cost to purchase and develop for, so to add it as a side feature was still worth it to deves

The IGN guys were talking about this recently. They brought up some things that kind of point out that Nintendo might make it optional, then bring up other things that say its not going anywhere...especially the new figurine project. I doubt they will. Its too late now to drop it. I do say, next system wont have it.

You can't have it both ways. The rant here is about removing the GamePad because it's not a good addition. Then you say it IS a good addition and those sort of additions should accumulate in consoles as time goes on. But for some reason it's not "new enough" and so it should be dumped for some other thing of which you can't describe but is apparently all of the things.

Seems to me more armchair whine.
"You guys need to innovate with new control schemes"
does something out of left field
"Wow, that's cool"
sales are average
"See! This is why you need to innovate with new control schemes!! Why don't you listen!?!"

The thing is that I'm not arguing the Gamepad should be dropped, at least at this point in time. I'm arguing that it never should have been added in favor of something else that offers more innovation for the price.

And innovation=/=addition. Putting a second analog stick on the GC was an addition, not an innovation, as it had been done and used well in the previous generation.. But it was cheap, so it made sense to add it to keep up. But if adding a second analog stick costed upwards of $100 per console, I doubt Nintendo would have included it. Now the drastically improved processing and graphics power of the GC were an innovation, as it brought something new to gameplay not seen in the previous generation. It makes sense to spend more money on this because it is the main reason we have new gens to begin with

That's why our conversation goes in circles so much, this is not at all what I have been trying to say. I personally love the gamepad even though it is under utilized.

My conversation is not about the merit of the gamepad, or whether it is good or not. It is simply about it not moving consoles while adding significant cost and being underutilized. Those conditions make me believe making it optional would be a wise business move. It is a reaction to the market, not a personal judgement on the merit of the gamepad. Some people don't like the game pad. Some people think the Wii U costs too much based on what it offers. Making it optional does not affect anyone who has a gamepad already in my view.

The only hurdle is the confusion about compatibility that would come up for those who went with the system with out the gamepad. Those people are buying in knowing they would have some incompatibility though so I don't feel it is that big of deal.

I wonder if they'd be more likely to offer a SKU without backwards compatibility than to have one without a gamepad. I mean, I wonder how much backwards compatibility would add to the cost

I don't even think the Gamepad should be made optional at this point. Making the Gamepad optional does adversely affect who have it already, as there is pretty much no chance of games that make full use of the Gamepad akin to NIntendoLand after that happens. When the Gamepad is made optional, requiring the Gamepad cuts down the install base for such games.

Also, making the Gamepad optional takes away any chance the Wii U has of distinguishing itself from its last-gen predecessors. I do agree that a time may come when the benefits of lowering the price outweigh the costs of losing this chance of differentiation, but I don't think that time is now.

Just because I don't support it's separation/removal after the fact doesn't mean I think it should have been there in the first place. I'd have much rather seen that money spent on making the Wii's motion controls more robust and precise, inviting more gameplay styles to use the technology.

@ikhan

I disagree with your conclusions.

Making the gamepad optional does not mean we will not get Nintendoland 2. The sales of Nintendoland have more to do with whether or not there is a sequel. Nintendo has sold something like 6 million gamepads to their most loyal fans....gamepad users will be the majority of the install base for a long time if not even for the life of the console. I can not imagine a no gamepad SKU completely turning the Wii U around and if it did, as I have said several times, than it is clearly something that needs to be offered sooner than later. The install base of gamepad users is going to be a larger percentage than wii motion plus was for Wii Sports resort or Skyward Sword. Nintendo is a hardware maker for this very reason, they can make the games for whatever hardware they design including add ons and such. If they can make a Wii Motion plus only AAA Zelda title then they can make some gamepad games even if they offer an optional SKU and don't have 100% gamepad adoption. They have never cared in the past and I doubt they would care in the future. Companies still make light gun games even though light guns are a rare peripheral for the other consoles.....

Making it optional does not cut down the install base of gamepads at all. It doesnt make gamepad dissapear. The install base is the install base as of now. If they make it optional they will still grow the gamepad install base especially if they can deliver compelling gamepad software. Anyone who buys a no gamepad SKU may have never bought a Wii U with a gamepad at all so it is really hard to say that offering a no gamepad SKU will harm the gamepad install base by any significant measure. Besides, selling Wii U software is the one and only thing that can turn the Wii U business around and this is a completely unrelated topic to whether or not 100% of Wii U buyers must purchase the gamepad or not.

I also think the gamepad's differentiating factor is not lost by offering an optional budget SKU with out a gamepad. The gamepad does not completely vanish. It is still a huge part of Wii U. There is a HUGE difference between offering this gimped budget option SKU and killing the gamepad off going forward. Nintendo is not going to stop supporting the gamepad or start pretending it never existed. That would be a huge mistake but that is totally different than what I am talking about.

Also, personally I am glad the gamepad was included at launch. I think the Wii U is plenty powerful enough at this time, at least for me and for the types of games I expect on a Nintendo console. Wii U games look amazing and at this point Xbone and PS4 games do not comparatively make Wii U(or Ps3/360) look ugly. I don't think there is anyway the gamepad would be what it is now if it was not launched as part of the console and I am grateful for that because I love my gamepad, I love Nintendoland, and I love Off Tv play. Yes it was definitely a bad business strategy as we have seen to this point but I love that Nintendo is out there trying to do new things and experiment with new ideas with their hardware even if they are not all commercial successes.

I don't think BC costs anything on the Wii U.

It is completely virtualized I believe. I do not think there is any specific hardware outside of the SD card slot that is there for BC. The vWii has been untouched in software updates since launch.

They said the Wii was 2 gamecubes taped together. They dropped BC on the Wii and saved money on the components for the 4 controller ports and 2 memory card slots but the PCB (printed circuti board) was unchanged. The also added a little metal piece on the drive that made it spit out gamecube sized discs. If you were to bend/remove that metal piece you could still start a gamecube game on a no BC (family edition) Wii. If you took a broken Wii and got the components from it and populated them on no BC wii you could still play gamecube games. I remember seeing a blog about someone who actuall did this and it worked.....

They say the Wii U is 2 Wii's taped together.....

I don't think dropping BC from the Wii saved them much and on the Wii U we are just talking about an SD card slot so I am hopeful there is no reason to ever take BC away from the Wii U....heck it has Wii in it's name.

Skyward Sword is the second worst selling 3D Zelda game of all time. The first is Majora's Mask. The common factor, both required peripherals. And the Gamepad is much more expensive than motion plus or the expansion pack. So yes, Nintendo can make Gamepad games, but they can do so much more confidently and consistently if it's bundled in. Ever notice how few Wii games used Wii Speak and motion plus? It's because it was disincentivized, because not every Wii owner had those two things. However, nearly ever game on the Wii used motion controls, the reason is that there was a 100% assurance that every Wii owner owned a Wii remote. It's the same with the Gamepad, there is a 100% assurance that every Wii U owner has a Gamepad right now.

So, no the Gamepad won't vanish, but there will be much less incentive from within or outside of Nintendo to make games for it. The Gamepad install base is high enough that the Wii U might get some games, just like Kinect and the N64's expansion pack did, but it can't be the defining factor of the system with only a few games making full use of it. In fact that's the Wii U's entire problem right now, in terms of the gameplay it offers, it's "last-gen".

Also, I misspoke. I'm not saying the Gamepad should have launched separately, I'm saying that it was a bad direction to go in the first place. It just doesn't seem like that big an innovation to me, and from the looks of things it seems like Nintendo wanted to use it mostly for Off-TV Play and Menu screens anyway. That's not really innovation, that's just convenience. I'd much rather see Nintendo go with another innovation that does make the Wii U "next-gen" in terms of gameplay, in other words, it offers something new (not necessarily bigger worlds and particle effects, motion control was something new also). I suppose that if Nintendo really wanted to offer Off-TV Play and a secondary menu screen, the Gamepad could have been offered separately from launch, but that's a secondary issue.

Imagine what Nintendo could do with the PS4's power, taking into account how they squeeze the very last bit of power from their systems. Or alternatively, imagine if Nintendo offered a Wii remote with shake stabilization and super precise motion sensing, such that you don't have nearly as much erroneous inputs, and pointer targets can be more specific.

@iKahn
Except that most of the games being released on Xbox One and PS4 are also "last-gen", in terms of gameplay. Most of the enhancements they've made so far, are strictly cosmetic.

@iKahn
And weren't Wii Sports resort and Wii Fit/plus games that required peripherals that were some of the best selling games on the Wii?

Skyward Sword and Majoras mask were also follow up Zelda games (second to Ocarina and Twilight) on the system late in its life with some weird differentiation factor going on. Motion controls were shunned by many and that may have kept some Zelda fans away as touch unfortunately did with Spirit Tracks and Phantom Hourglass. Also the Wiis weak hardware was really showing it's age and while SS did some admirable job with it by blurring stuff and such it did not have people excited about it graphically. I loved the touch zeldas and SS even though I did have the occasional annoyance with motion.

Besides I think the fact that the Wii U has always been sold with a gamepad for 1.5 years and has around a 6 million user install base makes a huge difference with what we are talking about. I follow your logic, but you are talking about add ons and peripherals that were than added later and when we are talking about the gamepad that everyone has except for some people in the future who were not interested in it and wanted a budget gimped SKU with some incompatibility. It is a whole different ball game from my perspective when you analyze the differences in the situations.

I mean how long do you think a budget SKU would have to be on sale to sell 6 million units?

It would take even longer than that because they were still selling gamepads and gamepad SKUs as well?

We are still talking about the vast majority of the user base having gamepads for the forseeable future so I don't see the problem and I disagree about the fallout this decision would have. The gamepad would never be wii speak, or motion pluse, or even the balance board. The console with the gamepad will still be the main focus and the vast majority of the user base so the issues you raise I do not think are relevant.

And all that is without even mentioning the reality that Nintendo themselves has ignored the gamepad and third parties have abandoned the system so the worst case fallout is already the current reality.