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Topic: Does anyone else feel this way about Deus Ex

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Wonkers

61. Posted:

OptometristLime wrote:

I was suggesting that classic games (from bygone eras, not talking about AAA games or whatever) have something unique to offer, a timeless quality if you will.

Which is exactly what I said.

But I was not saying that game design has failed to evolve or that "modern" games will be swept away more quickly from memory by time. It's simply a new generation, and for the most part gamers stand to benefit.

I never said that either. What I'm taking issue with is, again, the automatic assumption that games have evolved for the better. So the camera moves with more freedom, so we have QTE's instead of clunky combat, so there are extra polygons to fearsome creatures, so what?! These things make games better to play NOT better games.

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Jim_Purcell

62. Posted:

But you're just making the opposite assumption. That modern games have devolved into something worse. Which is just as flawed.

Jim_Purcell

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SpookyMeths

63. Posted:

Wonkers wrote:

These things make games better to play NOT better games.

What is this I don't even.

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GuSolarFlare

64. Posted:

CaviarMeths wrote:

Wonkers wrote:

These things make games better to play NOT better games.

What is this I don't even.

I think he meant "more accessible to play" or "easier to play"(I think "more accessible" fits in good for that to make sense)

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8BitSamurai

65. Posted:

GuSolarFlare wrote:

CaviarMeths wrote:

Wonkers wrote:

These things make games better to play NOT better games.

What is this I don't even.

I think he meant "more accessible to play" or "easier to play"(I think "more accessible" fits in good for that to make sense)

I read this as well.

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OptometristLime

66. Posted:

Wonkers wrote:

But I was not saying that game design has failed to evolve or that "modern" games will be swept away more quickly from memory by time. It's simply a new generation, and for the most part gamers stand to benefit.

I never said that either. What I'm taking issue with is, again, the automatic assumption that games have evolved for the better. So the camera moves with more freedom, so we have QTE's instead of clunky combat, so there are extra polygons to fearsome creatures, so what?! These things make games better to play NOT better games.

But, I already made the opposing claim, which I expected more agreement upon. When I talk about "classics" I mean that simply: these are games that are still regarded fondly (due to their timeless elements) by generations on both sides of the gap. Modern games of any caliber would be disqualified according to that description, but not indefinitely; time will tell.

Wonkers wrote:

OptometristLime wrote:

I just can't stand the misguided notion that game designers have some how evolved the medium to a point where the classics are effectively extinct.

Name me some AAA classics from the last 5 years. Try and be objective about it if you can, consider everything when you do so, including the likes of AI, balance, challenge etc.

I'm trying to underscore the fact that we are saying the same thing. :p

Edited on by OptometristLime

Miyamoto on his desire to focus more on the (hard)core Nintendo fan.

[The casual] attitude is, ‘okay, I am the customer. You are supposed to entertain me.’ [...] and to me it’s kind of a pathetic thing.

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SpookyMeths

67. Posted:

GuSolarFlare wrote:

CaviarMeths wrote:

Wonkers wrote:

These things make games better to play NOT better games.

What is this I don't even.

I think he meant "more accessible to play" or "easier to play"(I think "more accessible" fits in good for that to make sense)

Yeah, but a game that is more accessible is almost invariably a better game. Unless you're going for hipster cred, there's nothing really good about a flawed, clunky game design that turns off its potential audience. Any of the games that we now regard as classics don't have off-putting mechanics anyway. Any game that we revere today had simple, accessible gameplay that anyone could pick up and have a lot of fun with. Even if they were difficult games, they were difficult because of good, challenging level design, not because they were broken.

There are games still being made today that go by this philosophy as well. Simple, accessible gameplay does not make a bad game at all. You don't want 12 buttons that do 40 things, random difficulty spikes, or unfair enemy AI (eg. constant AoE spam that keeps you pinned to the ground and unable to respond). These all make games harder, but not in a good way. Both new games and old games are good when they are accessible AND challenging.

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GuSolarFlare

68. Posted:

CaviarMeths wrote:

GuSolarFlare wrote:

CaviarMeths wrote:

Wonkers wrote:

These things make games better to play NOT better games.

What is this I don't even.

I think he meant "more accessible to play" or "easier to play"(I think "more accessible" fits in good for that to make sense)

Yeah, but a game that is more accessible is almost invariably a better game. Unless you're going for hipster cred, there's nothing really good about a flawed, clunky game design that turns off its potential audience. Any of the games that we now regard as classics don't have off-putting mechanics anyway. Any game that we revere today had simple, accessible gameplay that anyone could pick up and have a lot of fun with. Even if they were difficult games, they were difficult because of good, challenging level design, not because they were broken.

There are games still being made today that go by this philosophy as well. Simple, accessible gameplay does not make a bad game at all. You don't want 12 buttons that do 40 things, random difficulty spikes, or unfair enemy AI (eg. constant AoE spam that keeps you pinned to the ground and unable to respond). These all make games harder, but not in a good way. Both new games and old games are good when they are accessible AND challenging.

I agree with you, was just explaining what he probably meant.


but just to state my personal point of view in this, I think old games(that were good, disconsider bad ones) had more style and personality compared to most good games nowadays (most, not all) are either realistic or some sort of unchanging style.
music is another thing, now many games just slap in orchestrated music and that's it. before they had very little resources and the systems couldn't handle fancy music so they had to get creative if they wanted something that sounded good.
but the game design itself(ignoring artstyle and music) has been getting better as many flaws from the past are getting removed and many small neat features are getting added so there's less frustration with the controls.
though I can't say anything about deus ex since I never played it :p

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Wonkers

69. Posted:

CaviarMeths wrote:

Yeah, but a game that is more accessible is almost invariably a better game.

That makes me want to vomit and/or cry. Exactly the reason so many great series have died, or why studio's have closed, jobs have been lost, genres have been dumbed down or indeed difficulty levels of games have weakened. There is absolutely nothing good about that statement you just made.

Edited on by Wonkers

https://itunes.apple.com/gb/podcast/outside-centre-film-podcast/id816882615

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GuSolarFlare

70. Posted:

Wonkers wrote:

CaviarMeths wrote:

Yeah, but a game that is more accessible is almost invariably a better game.

That makes me want to vomit and/or cry. Exactly the reason so many great series have died, or why studio's have closed, jobs have been lost, genres have been dumbed down or indeed difficulty levels of games have weakened. There is absolutely nothing good about that statement you just made.

it's really relative, if the content is still good accessibility makes it better.
the danger lies when other parts of the design have their quality sacrificed just to make it more accessible...
"accessibility has nothing to do with it" is essentially a wrong statement, MH3U is a perfect example as it is a single game that has two version with different "accessibilities" in gameplay, even ignoring the graphics and online the WiiU version is better compared to the 3DS one because the controls are more accessible, it's the exact same game(once again if you ignore that the WiiU version is the only one with online and the difference in graphics) but even with the complications of playing on the 3DS(especially without CPP) both versions are still good, even though anyone can see which one is better
basically, more accessible DOES mean "better game"(that it would have been otherwise) but "better game" doesn't always mean "good game". it's actually a very common mistake people make, you can't really compare two different games with different content like this(you can do that but not in this specific case), this exact comparison must be made between different versions of the same game or other factors will make the results unreliable

Edited on by GuSolarFlare

I was once a fighter in spirit alone, but not long ago I found something that was missing and became a fighter in body and mind too.
looking forward to Codename S.T.E.A.M.
salty tears tenderize true beef
my Backloggery
my Banner made by Dark-Luigi!
My Galaxy Bio also by Dark-Luigi!

3DS Friend Code: 3995-7085-4333 | Nintendo Network ID: GustavoSF

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SpookyMeths

71. Posted:

Wonkers wrote:

CaviarMeths wrote:

Yeah, but a game that is more accessible is almost invariably a better game.

That makes me want to vomit and/or cry. Exactly the reason so many great series have died, or why studio's have closed, jobs have been lost, genres have been dumbed down or indeed difficulty levels of games have weakened. There is absolutely nothing good about that statement you just made.

Utterly ridiculous.

@CanisWolfred was right. :|

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Taceus

72. Posted:

Wonkers wrote:

That makes me want to vomit and/or cry.

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Wonkers

73. Posted:

CaviarMeths wrote:

Utterly ridiculous.

You and him are the most ridiculous people on this forum, bar none.

What you and him have essentially said in this thread from start to finish is that no older games can ever be deemed good, successful, or worthy of anyone's time. The only games worth playing are the ones that are polished and perfected in every single way. The very idea that games were at some point experimenting with things, taking risks with limited technology and assets, is nothing more than that, an experimentation, because according to you the real games and the real reasons for games are right here in recent history. Forefathers paving the way for truly supreme games to come out in the future and then burying the remnants deep underground never to be seen or regarded to ever again. You have no idea how ridiculous a notion that is - imagine if your theory applied to cars - classic cars, Jaguar's, Mercs etc, would have no place, just give me a KIA!

And if, I somehow doubt, you didn't mean anything of the sort, we can put that down to your general intellects being so insufficient that you cannot explain yourselves properly - which, I'm sure isn't a coincidence, could be linked to the geographical locations of yourselves. Which is a shame, since most people in your respective places are actually quite impressive on here.

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Jim_Purcell

74. Posted:

Wow Wonkers, you were doing just fine until that second paragraph.

Jim_Purcell

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Spoony_Tech

75. Posted:

Wonkers wrote:

CaviarMeths wrote:

Utterly ridiculous.

You and him are the most ridiculous people on this forum, bar none.

What you and him have essentially said in this thread from start to finish is that no older games can ever be deemed good, successful, or worthy of anyone's time. The only games worth playing are the ones that are polished and perfected in every single way. The very idea that games were at some point experimenting with things, taking risks with limited technology and assets, is nothing more than that, an experimentation, because according to you the real games and the real reasons for games are right here in recent history. Forefathers paving the way for truly supreme games to come out in the future and then burying the remnants deep underground never to be seen or regarded to ever again. You have no idea how ridiculous a notion that is - imagine if your theory applied to cars - classic cars, Jaguar's, Mercs etc, would have no place, just give me a KIA!

And if, I somehow doubt, you didn't mean anything of the sort, we can put that down to your general intellects being so insufficient that you cannot explain yourselves properly - which, I'm sure isn't a coincidence, could be linked to the geographical locations of yourselves. Which is a shame, since most people in your respective places are actually quite impressive on here.

Wow, you take the most extreme assumption from their posts. Never once did I take away from what they said as the original games were bad in their own right just better for the update or streamlining.

I agree, if you like the original say Resident Evil and the way it controls more power to ya but making the controls better is better for most everyone.

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unrandomsam

76. Posted:

Take something like Wizardry 8 - its complicated but it isn't broken simplifying it would make it not as good but we will never get a game like that with say Skyrim quality graphics.

Tropical Freeze is the only Wii U Platformer with anything close to a good difficulty curve. (I think they could have made it a bit harder (Rare did second time around which was absolutely the right choice) but at least it doesn't waste half the game for anybody who has ever played a platformer before which seems to be the fashion).

Stuff like assisted aiming it is not better controls it is like cheating.

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MikeLove

77. Posted:

Wonkers wrote:

I somehow doubt, you didn't mean anything of the sort, we can put that down to your general intellects being so insufficient that you cannot explain yourselves properly - which, I'm sure isn't a coincidence, could be linked to the geographical locations of yourselves. Which is a shame, since most people in your respective places are actually quite impressive on here.

I agree 100% wiv ya, bruv!

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OptometristLime

78. Posted:

All this time I thought we were speaking the same language of mutual game enthusiasm. Next time I'll just flash my ID card and be deported from this insipid chatter.

Miyamoto on his desire to focus more on the (hard)core Nintendo fan.

[The casual] attitude is, ‘okay, I am the customer. You are supposed to entertain me.’ [...] and to me it’s kind of a pathetic thing.

You are what you eat from your head to your feet.

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Spoony_Tech

79. Posted:

unrandomsam wrote:

Take something like Wizardry 8 - its complicated but it isn't broken simplifying it would make it not as good but we will never get a game like that with say Skyrim quality graphics.

Tropical Freeze is the only Wii U Platformer with anything close to a good difficulty curve. (I think they could have made it a bit harder (Rare did second time around which was absolutely the right choice) but at least it doesn't waste half the game for anybody who has ever played a platformer before which seems to be the fashion).

Stuff like assisted aiming it is not better controls it is like cheating.

I can't help but agree on the assisted aiming thing. When I found out that Goldeneye had this after I was not using it for like 100 hours I was ticked. The problem was I didn't want to use it but it was hard to keep up with the better players that did so I finally reluctantly turned the option on.

Edited on by Spoony_Tech

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MERG said:

I'm finding this game way too distracting. I would much rather be playing it right now rather than working!
Words to live by!!

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GuSolarFlare

80. Posted:

Spoony_Tech wrote:

unrandomsam wrote:

Take something like Wizardry 8 - its complicated but it isn't broken simplifying it would make it not as good but we will never get a game like that with say Skyrim quality graphics.

Tropical Freeze is the only Wii U Platformer with anything close to a good difficulty curve. (I think they could have made it a bit harder (Rare did second time around which was absolutely the right choice) but at least it doesn't waste half the game for anybody who has ever played a platformer before which seems to be the fashion).

Stuff like assisted aiming it is not better controls it is like cheating.

I can't help but agree on the assisted aiming thing. When I found out that Goldeneye had this after I was not using it for like 100 hours I was ticked. The problem was I didn't want to use it but it was hard to keep up with the better players that did so I finally reluctantly turned the option on.

aim assist is really(some sort of) cheating, it at the very least shouldn't be allowed for online play. but it doesn't really matter when it's for playing alone you can do whatever you want when playing by yourself, it won't/shouldn't bother the others.

I was once a fighter in spirit alone, but not long ago I found something that was missing and became a fighter in body and mind too.
looking forward to Codename S.T.E.A.M.
salty tears tenderize true beef
my Backloggery
my Banner made by Dark-Luigi!
My Galaxy Bio also by Dark-Luigi!

3DS Friend Code: 3995-7085-4333 | Nintendo Network ID: GustavoSF