Wii U Forum

Topic: Does a professional reviewer have a mandate to bring personal political biases into a review?

Showing 141 to 160 of 165

AuthorMessage
Avatar

MAB

141. Posted:

Back in the olden days we didn't care about what people said on the internets. We bought games at extreme prices and played them no matter how crappy they were... Nobody has fun with games and systems anymore, let's all just whine about them ;)

MAB

AuthorMessage
Avatar

garywood

142. Posted:

theblackdragon wrote:

@skywake: not to steal your thunder or anything, but they've accused both myself and someone else (i believe it was Jaz007, i can't remember exactly) of resorting to personal attacks as well over the course of this discussion, though that portion was part of the now-deleted original thread, so that's why you may have thought it was just you. :3 I haven't been paying a whole lot of attention to the latter pages of this new thread so i haven't seen where you may or may not have 'personally attacked' the OP, but i remember the only thing i could see with either of the posts from the other thread that had been accused of 'personal attacks' was the use of the word 'you' to directly describe something the OP had said or done in their posts, and they apparently didn't like what we were pointing out.

Yes I'd define a personal attack as anything that targets the person making the point instead of the point itself. It's important to define it in this clear way because otherwise it comes down to judgements of gradation- and as we know, some people might find some level or insult more unacceptable than others. It's not a matter of whether I'm insulted by any particular example of this- it's just the nature of the very approach that puts you in a position where you don't only have to defend the argument you're putting forward, you have to also then defend you own character. I don't consider this a legitimate burden for anyone to have to meet in a discussion.

Saying things like "You wanted a debate with maturity? I don't think so. You want a debate where everyone agrees with you." does absolutely no good except provoking people into getting angry and if that's just considered acceptable by the moderators here, and even something that they too occasionally do, then please inform me now.

garywood

AuthorMessage
Avatar

sdcazares1980

143. Posted:

Reviews, by nature, are opinions, so there really is no rule that you can't be "politically biased", but you do have to state your reasons on why you believe that being "misogynistic" is bad for a game like GTA 5. I've never played the game, but I have played the other ones, so my understanding is that the misogyny comes with the territory. Remember that in GTA: Vice City, Haitians criticized the game for make them look like the bad guys. Everyone is fair game here. Again, I haven't played the game, so I'll have to discover on what Carolyn Petit, the Gamespot, reviewer, meant by "misogyny."

sdcazares1980

AuthorMessage
Avatar

garywood

144. Posted:

sdcazares1980 wrote:

Reviews, by nature, are opinions, so there really is no rule that you can't be "politically biased", but you do have to state your reasons on why you believe that being "misogynistic" is bad for a game like GTA 5. I've never played the game, but I have played the other ones, so my understanding is that the misogyny comes with the territory. Remember that in GTA: Vice City, Haitians criticized the game for make them look like the bad guys. Everyone is fair game here. Again, I haven't played the game, so I'll have to discover on what Carolyn Petit, the Gamespot, reviewer, meant by "misogyny."

That sounds to me like a pretty good approach!

garywood

AuthorMessage
AvatarAdmin

theblackdragon

145. Posted:

garywood wrote:

Saying things like "You wanted a debate with maturity? I don't think so. You want a debate where everyone agrees with you." does absolutely no good except provoking people into getting angry and if that's just considered acceptable by the moderators here, and even something that they too occasionally do, then please inform me now.

He's not wrong, nor has he personally insulted you. He's stated the truth, you do want a debate where everyone agrees with you. Unfortunately no one's in an obliging mood, though, so now we've got eight or so pages' worth of tail-chasing going on.

We need a 'shrug' emoticon or something, lol.

BEST THREAD EVER
future of NL >:3
[16:43] James: I should learn these site rules more clearly
[16:44] LztheBlehBird: James doesn't know the rules? For shame!!!
[16:44] Vintage: We have rules?
[16:44] Reala: don't expose the staff to sunlight, don't get them wet and don't feed them after midnight

3DS Friend Code: 3136-6802-7042 | Nintendo Network ID: gentlemen_cat | Twitter: theblackdragon

AuthorMessage
Avatar

skywake

146. Posted:

Can I just make the point that when someone says "you think ___? Well no, I disagree because ___" that isn't a personal attack. That's very much addressing the argument unless the person ends with "because you're an idiot". Argue the substance of people's points not the semantics because when people start debating the latter it's usually because they're trying to shut down the topic.

Which in my books is much more of an automatic loss for the person doing it than the use of the word "you".

NNID: skywake

AuthorMessage
Avatar

CanisWolfred

147. Posted:

garywood wrote:

CanisWolfred wrote:

No...that's not censorship. I knew you 'd you'd try to skew it that way. It's just common writing standards to meet with the expectations of the viewership. There's technically nothing stopping people from, say, going on a rant and mindlessly bash a game. Look up IGN's review of Tales of Symphonia: Dawn of a New World, and you'll see what I mean. However, that doesn't mean people would like that or want to read that all the time. People would start looking elsewhere for reviews, so reviewers tend to not do that kinda thing. That's all a standard is: what most people agree on how a certain thing should be at the time. And standards change all the time, constantly adapting to an ever-changing environment.

Well the only reason you might think I'm trying to "skew" it is that I think you've effectively just contradicted everything you've been arguing for. I don't have the patience to root back through the whole argument to see what was said by you personally and what was said by others making a similar argument. But I don't really accept this kind of rationalising. I mean, as has been repeatedly said in response to my arguments: People should just give a score based on their experience. I think if that's your attitude, you don't really have any right to change it suits your point of view. I think those user scores have to be treated exactly the same as the pro scores. The fact that some of them might be better written doesn't change what their opinion would be.

But if the person can't get across their point well, why should you read it? Would you really find that helpful? I mean, it's your choice, but it's also your time. Why would you choose to spend your time with something that's not helpful? Maybe I'm not getting my point across clearly, but this entire time, I've been trying to talk about the right to choice and freedom of speech. everyone has the right to have an opinion an express it, but how you express your opinion can lead to consequences, and you have a right to those consequences as well. Most people's reaction is to simply "think before they speak", expressing their opinion carefully so as the get the point across without causing a negative reaction.

Doesn't talk about games.

Avid Fan of Anime, Webcomics, and Wolves
My Den - My door is always open....Too bad it's an empty closet.
My DeviantArt - I like to call it "the blank wall"

Wolfrun
Wolfrun Chibi
Scary Wolfrun...
...Scared Wolfrun

Arooo~

AuthorMessage
Avatar

garywood

148. Posted:

theblackdragon wrote:

He's not wrong, nor has he personally insulted you. He's stated the truth, you do want a debate where everyone agrees with you. Unfortunately no one's in an obliging mood, though, so now we've got eight or so pages' worth of tail-chasing going on.

We need a 'shrug' emoticon or something, lol.

Can I just confirm that you're a moderator on this forum? And can I ask whether you acknowledged that I'm the ONLY person in this entire thread that has admitted that they're probably wrong?

Edited on by garywood

garywood

AuthorMessage
Avatar

garywood

149. Posted:

CanisWolfred wrote:

But if the person can't get across their point well, why should you read it? Would you really find that helpful? I mean, it's your choice, but it's also your time. Why would you choose to spend your time with something that's not helpful? Maybe I'm not getting my point across clearly, but this entire time, I've been trying to talk about the right to choice and freedom of speech. everyone has the right to have an opinion an express it, but how you express your opinion can lead to consequences, and you have a right to those consequences as well. Most people's reaction is to simply "think before they speak", expressing their opinion carefully so as the get the point across without causing a negative reaction.

Well, I don't really see what you mean. I feel like you're not really being fair to them. I mean read the first 3 negative reviews that come up on the PC version of diablo 3. They're all written in perfectly fine english, seem to be quite calm and serious. I'm not really sure there's anything you can take away from that, with the reasoning you've been using earlier in the discussion.

garywood

AuthorMessage
AvatarAdmin

theblackdragon

150. Posted:

@garywood: I'd thought the shield and my comment on page 1 of this thread that I was indeed a moderator here would have been proof enough that I am one, but since it's apparently not, yes — I'm the Community Administrator, which basically makes me a glorified moderator. Philip_J_Reed is also a moderator here, idk if he's stepped in or not after i replied to him that one time in here, though, lol.

also, I have no idea whether you've 'admitted that [you're] probably wrong' or not. like i told skywake, I haven't been paying much attention to the latter pages of this thread (since I knew it was all tail-chasing anyway), but even now all I see is you arguing what at first glance looks like the same stuff against the same people, so if nothing's changed now, I'm not sure what that sort of admission even matters for in the long run. :3

BEST THREAD EVER
future of NL >:3
[16:43] James: I should learn these site rules more clearly
[16:44] LztheBlehBird: James doesn't know the rules? For shame!!!
[16:44] Vintage: We have rules?
[16:44] Reala: don't expose the staff to sunlight, don't get them wet and don't feed them after midnight

3DS Friend Code: 3136-6802-7042 | Nintendo Network ID: gentlemen_cat | Twitter: theblackdragon

AuthorMessage
Avatar

skywake

151. Posted:

An admittance of wrongness in a thread where everyone disagrees with you is only so valuable. If you end up, and I have done this many times, trying to concede like that but keep going then you really haven't conceded at all. When you're doing that you're often just trying to save face and position yourself as the moral victor in an already finished argument. I don't think that's particularly virtuous

Edited on by skywake

NNID: skywake

AuthorMessage
Avatar

garywood

152. Posted:

Ok well I'd suggest that you actually read the entire thread before AS A MODERATOR telling members on a forum that they're just trying to get everyone to agree with them.
I clearly stated that I was probably wrong in this instance and that for the most part, I'd been arguing on principle- which had ultimately made it a fairly pointless thing to argue. Which I think is rather uncharacteristic of someone who's trying to get everyone to agree with them.

I'm sorry if you think it's oversensitive, but this is probably the most unprofessional behaviour I've ever seen from a forum moderator. I won't be continuing to be a member of nintendolife with such a cancerous atmosphere for anyone who has an unpopular opinion and I'll be messaging the site to complain about your behaviour.

garywood

AuthorMessage
Avatar

skywake

153. Posted:

...........

wow

NNID: skywake

AuthorMessage
Avatar

DefHalan

154. Posted:

The difference between a Professional Review and a User Review is that the Professional Review has to meet the standards of the website, not filtering what they say but more like how they say it. User Reviews are normally less structured and more of an attack towards the developer. It is possible for User Reviews to be on par or even better than Professional Reviews but the fact is the User Reviews don't have the Professional filter normally. Remember it is not a filter of what to say but how to say it. At least that was my experience when I was a reviewer.

http://dudehugespeaks.tumblr.com/post/44243746261/nickels-dimes-and-quarters
http://www.penny-arcade.com/patv/episode/why-console-specs-dont-matter
http://www.gamasutra.com/view/news/200271/Video_Don_Daglow_on_nextgen_transition_traps_and_treasures.php

3DS Friend Code: 2621-2786-9784 | Nintendo Network ID: DefHalan

AuthorMessage
Avatar

MAB

155. Posted:

Nominate this thread for hall of fame status ;)

MAB

AuthorMessage
Avatar

skywake

156. Posted:

MadAussieBloke wrote:

Nominate this thread for hall of fame status ;)

after that last one yes, +1 to this

NNID: skywake

AuthorMessage
AvatarAdmin

theblackdragon

157. Posted:

garywood wrote:

I won't be continuing to be a member of nintendolife with such a cancerous atmosphere for anyone who has an unpopular opinion and I'll be messaging the site to complain about your behaviour.

Sure thing — I'll just point them here to this thread which lays it all out pretty clearly. Good luck wherever you decide to go next! :3

BEST THREAD EVER
future of NL >:3
[16:43] James: I should learn these site rules more clearly
[16:44] LztheBlehBird: James doesn't know the rules? For shame!!!
[16:44] Vintage: We have rules?
[16:44] Reala: don't expose the staff to sunlight, don't get them wet and don't feed them after midnight

3DS Friend Code: 3136-6802-7042 | Nintendo Network ID: gentlemen_cat | Twitter: theblackdragon

AuthorMessage
Avatar

ultrakatie64

158. Posted:

I promised myself I wouldn't get involved in this debate. But, I've got to ask. Why is everyone so bothered by this? Why does a reviewer bringing their personal political biases or social views into a review matter to anyone? When did a 9 become a bad score?

Anyone who wanted GTA V surely bought it. Anyone who hasn't bought it already but wants it will be buying it in the near future I'm sure. And I doubt anyone who was on the fence about this game let a 9 talk them out of it.

I'm not a professional reviewer by any means. But, when I've reviewed games on Amazon or even told my friends what I like or not like about them I obviously state my biases. That is what a review is made up of, biases. I am biased against QTEs and I knock games for relying on them. What's the difference here? If a reviewer doesn't like something, then that reviewer is going to bring it up in their review. If they don't, they aren't doing their job right. Ms. Petit has the right to state what she likes or dislikes about a game. I didn't agree with her on her Luigi's Mansion review, but did I blow up over it? No. I bought the game and enjoyed it. I already made up my mind that I wanted it. I also didn't agree with her on Tomb Raider. I think it is terrible and my personal biases led me to writing my own review on Amazon stating what I disliked about it.

I didn't take any of this personally. Ms. Petit doesn't write reviews to hurt feelings or ruin someones day. And if a review for a video game does ruin your day, then you need to get some thick skin.

"Whatever you do, don't blink."

Steam ID: sailorkatiev
FC 0490-5351-9441

AuthorMessage
Avatar

garywood

159. Posted:

Well I'm sorry if it looked like I was trying to be dramatic. That's not my intent at all. But you have to understand that some things just make it impossible to actually debate things rationally. A highly biased moderator who makes comments before even reading the entire thread- and I assume has no intent to apologise- is just a fundamental problem in my mind. I admit I'm almost definitely wrong on this particular issue so I have no idea how I can be accused of just trying to make people agree with me.
And what's more, having admitted I'm wrong, I get the kind of response from skywake above:
"An admittance of wrongness in a thread where everyone disagrees with you is only so valuable."
I'd suggest that that's almost the very definition of tribalism and typifies maybe the single biggest problem with humanity.
So can I ask , theblackdragon, if you could delete my account (I can't see an option to do it). No hard feelings, Cheers.

garywood

AuthorMessage
AvatarAdmin

theblackdragon

160. Posted:

@garywood: If ever you decide you'd like to give it another go around here, feel free to let us know — you know how to find the Contact Form ;) Again, best of luck to you!

BEST THREAD EVER
future of NL >:3
[16:43] James: I should learn these site rules more clearly
[16:44] LztheBlehBird: James doesn't know the rules? For shame!!!
[16:44] Vintage: We have rules?
[16:44] Reala: don't expose the staff to sunlight, don't get them wet and don't feed them after midnight

3DS Friend Code: 3136-6802-7042 | Nintendo Network ID: gentlemen_cat | Twitter: theblackdragon