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Topic: Do gamers even know why they dislike Nintendo ?

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sdcazares1980

21. Posted:

kkslider5552000 wrote:

N64 had terrible 3rd party support because (Wikipedia quote): "Yamauchi admitted at the 2001 Nintendo Space World event that he had intentionally ordered the Nintendo 64 to be difficult to program games for. The idea was to repel untalented third-party developers from the console, and hence tighten the quality of third-party games. However, his plan backfired and merely increased the number of poorly developed games for the console."

GCN had terrible 3rd party exclusive support but its main problem was that it wasn't a PS2 (Xbox was a Halo machine and NOTHING ELSE FOR MOST PEOPLE until Gears and COD4 on 360, let's be honest) since most of the best/popular 3rd party games were multiconsole anyway

I guess that answers on why the N64 had such a terrible library.

sdcazares1980

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faint

22. Posted:

Nope it was because of square soft

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DudeSean

23. Posted:

faint wrote:

You guys need to look up the nintendo/square soft fall out. That's what started the bad third party support. Also look up the cd add on Sony made for the n64. This is how nintendo gave life to their biggest competitor. It seems like a few of your are unfamiliar with these things.

lol. It was for the snes, not the n64. It seems you're a little unfamiliar with what you're talking about.

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sdcazares1980

24. Posted:

DudeSean wrote:

sdcazares1980 wrote:

DudeSean wrote:

The n64 had better graphics than the ps1 and Gamecube had better graphics than ps2. In fact, Nintendo hasn't even tried to make their systems have the best graphics since the gamecube. I'll bet that's why. The lesson they learned was that graphics didn't matter. And the Wii proved that for them. So... I think the graphics are a waste of an argument. Yes, the hardcore gamers on pc, ps3 and xbox 360 viewed the Wii as being behind, but it was ahead in sales!

The N64 and the GameCube's graphics and power were not that far apart from the competition. I'm not sure why the N64 did not make games that the PS1 was making. Why no Final Fantasy? Why no Castlevania: Symphony of the Night? From what I've read, the GameCube's disc size, lack of online play, and the disc spinning backwards made developers look the other way for the Xbox and PS2.

As far as the Wii is concerned, yeah, it sold the most consoles, but who, other than Nintendo loyalists, was playing their games?

Well, the discs for ps1 had more capacity than the cartridges for n64. Also, I can tell you exactly why Final Fantasy (and others) went to ps1 instead of n64. The ps1 was basically an snes with a disc drive. In fact, programmers could still use the same language that they had been using for making snes games to make ps1 games. So, it saved them a lot of time not having to learn a new language.

Perhaps the Wii's power and graphics were farther apart them its competitors', but the gameplay was still possible. Just very few developers actually took the time to make it happen.

Well, according to the numbers, quite a few people were playing their games. Obviously pc gamers and xbox/playstation fans weren't playing them.

I guess this sort of begs the question as to why Nintendo did not get the media coverage and hype (thought not necessarily bad hype) that the other systems did?

sdcazares1980

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skywake

25. Posted:

sdcazares1980 wrote:

The N64 and the GameCube's graphics and power were not that far apart from the competition. I'm not sure why the N64 did not make games that the PS1 was making. Why no Final Fantasy? Why no Castlevania: Symphony of the Night?

Unit sales, disks were cheaper with larger margins and the larger capacity (700MB vs 30-120MB) meant cutscenes were possible. However in the actual game and in terms of actual physical power the N64 was more capable.

sdcazares1980 wrote:

From what I've read, the GameCube's disc size, lack of online play, and the disc spinning backwards made developers look the other way for the Xbox and PS2.

Disk size was probably one of the issues but the format of the disk means nothing to developers because it's simply not something that they have to worry about. It didn't spin backwards and the odd structure of it only made it less vulnerable to piracy which is a positive. Also in the "PS2 era" online was hardly a deal breaker and probably didn't matter much at all to the end user. Even the XBox, the only console to support online by default during that era, only had limited subscribers. 24million XBoxes sold early in the 360's life but only 2mill XBLive subs before the 360 launched. For comparison there are 46mill active users now with 78mill 360s sold.

The Gamecube lost support from third parties because it didn't move units and it didn't move units because it didn't have third party support. Most of this was purely because the PS2 was a DVD player trojan horse that contained a game console and the GameCube wasn't. It killed the Dreamcast for the same reason.

sdcazares1980 wrote:

As far as the Wii is concerned, yeah, it sold the most consoles, but who, other than Nintendo loyalists, was playing their games?

A console that sold 100mill units and 850mill pieces of software with six of its games making the top ten best selling games of all time. Which doesn't include Wii Fit or Wii Fit Plus. Just Nintendo loyalists playing those games? As a side note there are only three non-Nintendo games in the top 25 selling games of all time. GTA:SA on the PS2, Kinect Adventures on the 360 and GTA:VC on the PS2.

Edited on by skywake

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faint

26. Posted:

Nope I am not it was going to be for the snes but nintendo delayed it. Then nintendo signed up with Philips to make the disks themselves so they could get out of part of the contract with Sony. nintendo then released proto types for the n64. At this point Sony built a second proto type that would work with it. They showed it off and nintendo said cd based game would fail and ended the contract the next year Sony showed of the playstation (one word) proto type. Square went to nintendo and demanded they go to cd format for video capture. Ff7 was slated for the 64. Nintendo said no so they took ff7 the the now playstation ( two words) and talked enix into jumping ship as well. Other third parties joined suit and their you have it. Square has even apologized for doing this in recent times.

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faint

27. Posted:

But don't take my word for it do some real research ie not Wikipedia of a short google search. Realy look into it. I have stuck by ninty since I first played dragon warrior when it was released in the eightys. The biggest mistakes they have made are because of pride/arrogance. One of the reasons I like iwata so much is his humility. Glad they promoted.

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kkslider5552000

28. Posted:

faint wrote:

But don't take my word for it do some real research ie not Wikipedia of a short google search. Realy look into it. I have stuck by ninty since I first played dragon warrior when it was released in the eightys. The biggest mistakes they have made are because of pride/arrogance. One of the reasons I like iwata so much is his humility. Glad they promoted.

Exactly. People complain about Iwata...and yeah he's made some really stupid decisions and should be made fun of for that but I tend to prefer this Nintendo to the aggressive jerks they could be as businessmen in the past. Some of the stuff they did in the NES era I kinda wonder how they got away with. I think reading more on that or comparing it to EA or the increasingly insane AAA market would give people some perspective on why Nintendo is worth defending (to a reasonable degree) despite its faults.

Edited on by kkslider5552000

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Banazir_Galbasi

29. Posted:

I think the title is a trick question because if they are really gamers then they will love nintendo not this garbage that is mostly the same

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CanisWolfred

30. Posted:

Cotton wrote:

I think the title is a trick question because if they are really gamers then they will love nintendo not this garbage that is mostly the same

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Edited on by CanisWolfred

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steamhare

31. Posted:

CanisWolfred wrote:

Cotton wrote:

I think the title is a trick question because if they are really gamers then they will love nintendo not this garbage that is mostly the same

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Bringing that up disregards just how boring the ds new super mario bros is, especially when directly compared.

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Banazir_Galbasi

32. Posted:

CanisWolfred wrote:

Cotton wrote:

I think the title is a trick question because if they are really gamers then they will love nintendo not this garbage that is mostly the same

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True but I don't play mario games zelda has independent stories and ive only played one pokemon game

Edited on by Banazir_Galbasi

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skywake

33. Posted:

CanisWolfred wrote:

Cotton wrote:

I think the title is a trick question because if they are really gamers then they will love nintendo not this garbage that is mostly the same

New SMB 2
Twilight Princess
Pokemon B/W 2

There's a reason you didn't say 3D Land, Skyward Sword and Pokemon B/W. Plus I don't want to turn this into another Twilight Princess thread, although it probably will anyway, but Twilight Princess is a fantastic game. Dragging it into an argument about "crappy sameness" is setting a very high bar for originality.

I'll give you New SMB 2 which is basically a level pack in the style of those new releases of Angry Birds but not much more. Nothing wrong with that and I did have fun with it while it lasted but it isn't really original in any meaningful way. The other two? Flamebait.

Edited on by skywake

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CanisWolfred

34. Posted:

^Shhhh, you're blowing my cover!

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sdcazares1980

35. Posted:

skywake wrote:

sdcazares1980 wrote:

The N64 and the GameCube's graphics and power were not that far apart from the competition. I'm not sure why the N64 did not make games that the PS1 was making. Why no Final Fantasy? Why no Castlevania: Symphony of the Night?

Unit sales, disks were cheaper with larger margins and the larger capacity (700MB vs 30-120MB) meant cutscenes were possible. However in the actual game and in terms of actual physical power the N64 was more capable.

sdcazares1980 wrote:

From what I've read, the GameCube's disc size, lack of online play, and the disc spinning backwards made developers look the other way for the Xbox and PS2.

Disk size was probably one of the issues but the format of the disk means nothing to developers because it's simply not something that they have to worry about. It didn't spin backwards and the odd structure of it only made it less vulnerable to piracy which is a positive. Also in the "PS2 era" online was hardly a deal breaker and probably didn't matter much at all to the end user. Even the XBox, the only console to support online by default during that era, only had limited subscribers. 24million XBoxes sold early in the 360's life but only 2mill XBLive subs before the 360 launched. For comparison there are 46mill active users now with 78mill 360s sold.

The Gamecube lost support from third parties because it didn't move units and it didn't move units because it didn't have third party support. Most of this was purely because the PS2 was a DVD player trojan horse that contained a game console and the GameCube wasn't. It killed the Dreamcast for the same reason.

sdcazares1980 wrote:

As far as the Wii is concerned, yeah, it sold the most consoles, but who, other than Nintendo loyalists, was playing their games?

A console that sold 100mill units and 850mill pieces of software with six of its games making the top ten best selling games of all time. Which doesn't include Wii Fit or Wii Fit Plus. Just Nintendo loyalists playing those games? As a side note there are only three non-Nintendo games in the top 25 selling games of all time. GTA:SA on the PS2, Kinect Adventures on the 360 and GTA:VC on the PS2.

I get it. The numbers are on (or at least should be on) Nintendo's side, but why hasn't it been treated as such?

If N64's hardware was much more powerful than the PS1, then why didn't it show? I don't believe they were all that different, but Sony made better use of it.

The reason why the original Xbox didn't have a lot of online subscribers is because the Internet was still in it's infancy. It was growing, but not the way it is now with smartphones, better access, social media, tablets, etc.

The Dreamcast died because of poor management, debt, and the ill-fated add-ons from the Sega Genesis. The PS2 was more than a "DVD player trojan horse" as you call it.

The reason why the Wii sold as many units as it did is because it was vastly different from the other two systems and that's fine, but those other two systems received the most attention. For the most part, the Wii was just collecting dust while the HD counterparts were being played almost endlessly. The best-selling Wii games you're referring to? Hey everyone loves party games. That's why they're bought. New Super Mario Bros. Wii continued the tradition of the original Mario series, so yeah, that's a cash cow. Ditto for Mario Kart Wii, but made better with online.

So, yes, I can see why those numbers would make Nintendo look good, but it's storied tumultuous relationship with 3rd party developers, I fear, would be its undoing, especially with the Wii U, which is basically an extended version of the 360 but with Nintendo characters. Why couldn't Nintendo make a system that could've been as powerful as the PS4 and the Xbox One? Why no Blu-ray support? Better yet, why no Strider or Soul Calibur 2 HD? I mean, geez, the GameCube version of SC2 was the best-selling one, and Nintendo couldn't even get THAT one?

I don't know. I'm not very optimistic of the Wii U's chances. The 3DS right now is making Nintendo look good. I'm a Wii U owner, but I see nothing to get excited about.

sdcazares1980

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kkslider5552000

36. Posted:

CanisWolfred wrote:

Cotton wrote:

I think the title is a trick question because if they are really gamers then they will love nintendo not this garbage that is mostly the same

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comparing one of my favorite Zelda titles (despite its blatant fanservice) to PLEASE GIVE US MONEY WE HAVE MARIO annoys me

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rallydefault

37. Posted:

We live in a different era now. Those of us in our late 20s-early 30s keenly remember growing up with Atari, Nintendo, and Sega (and archaic PCs haha). WE know that Nintendo isn't "just Mario games," but a lot of gamers aren't as old as us and never had those video game experiences in the '80s. Many "gamers" now are only teenagers, maybe even in their early 20s - if they remember a system fondly, they may go as far back as the N64 or PS1, but honestly not much further. Those born even in the mid '90s who may be approaching the age of 20ish around this time might have grown up on the PS2 or original Xbox instead, instilling brand loyalty early on to the relative "new players" in the console field.

Edited on by rallydefault

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kkslider5552000

38. Posted:

sdcazares1980 wrote:

So, yes, I can see why those numbers would make Nintendo look good, but it's storied tumultuous relationship with 3rd party developers, I fear, would be its undoing, especially with the Wii U, which is basically an extended version of the 360 but with Nintendo characters. Why couldn't Nintendo make a system that could've been as powerful as the PS4 and the Xbox One? Why no Blu-ray support? Better yet, why no Strider or Soul Calibur 2 HD? I mean, geez, the GameCube version of SC2 was the best-selling one, and Nintendo couldn't even get THAT one?

Because Nintendo puts long term profit over short term relevance, and also because PS4 level graphics for Nintendo's SD Wii developers could have likely have taken either longer to produce content over. And while PS4 level system would have gotten them more 3rd party support, they would have to spend an even more insane amount of money to not still be in 3rd place for 3rd party content. They are not giving 3rd parties money just to get ports now, they certainly wouldn't do that in that scenario.

Edited on by kkslider5552000

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skywake

39. Posted:

@sdcazares1980
You can't have it both ways. You made a point of saying that the Gamecube failed because of online and when I show you the numbers you claim that things have changed now. I never claimed that things haven't changed I just said it wasn't a huge issue with the Gamecube. It wasn't an issue with the PS2 either and it natively was just as crippled as the Gamecube in that regard.

On the "the only people playing games on the Wii were loyal fans" point let me put it this way. Lets cut off game sales at 7.5mill so on the 360 we include Halo 4 and most of the CoDs but not battlefield or Gears or Red Dead. A fair chunk of users and not just the loyal fans play those games. On the PS3 that cutoff would include GTA4, GT5 and most of the CoDs but nothing else. For the Wii there were Wii Sports and Wii Fit but there was also Super Mario Galaxy and Brawl with Twilight Princess and Galaxy 2 just missing out. Now you can't tell me that it was only the loyal Nintendo fans buying these games. If they were just the loyal fans why did no GC games make that number and Halo/GT/GTA make it for the PS2/XB? Your argument is weird.

And yes, the PS2 was a DVD player and that's what got it into peoples houses. Same was true for the PS3 early in its life with Blu-Ray. Hell you even mention the lack of Blu-Ray support as a reason to complain about the Wii U. Why dismiss it? It's a thing. It was one of the reasons the PS2 beat the GC but it was also something it had over the Dreamcast. The Dreamcast and Sega had other issues, Piracy being one of the other big ones, but it not being a DVD player was one a huge issue.

As for the Wii U I do agree that it is having a hard time. This time it's pretty much exclusively about image and lack of software and little more than that I think. If something like Skyward Sword had been a Wii U launch game or even if it had the launch lineup they said it would have had at E3 2012 it'd be a different story. But it didn't and it sold poorly. Now it's snowballing a bit and they'll have to hope that Mario Kart/Smash Bros don't come too late or that 3D World is a hit.

Edited on by skywake

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kkslider5552000

40. Posted:

I think the main reason I've never bothered to be too worried about Wii U is that Nintendo has basically done nothing since launch, so of course it's sold basically nothing since launch. That could hurt the console if they don't do a lot of I guess damage control for the system's image for a good amount of time (though I'd argue 3DS was meh at best for an embarrassing amount of time, and it's already the most important system in the world right now). But otherwise Nintendo has not done enough to lose anything from this short term disaster for the console. That might be why Wii U has had these issues, because Wii did have such an incredibly sharp fall in popularity from 2006-2012 and it made modern Nintendo consoles look like a one-trick pony (where as it took over a decade to go from NES to GCN level relevance for Nintendo).

Edited on by kkslider5552000

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