As much as I would love to leave the "TP: Good game or bad game" argument to another thread, I feel that it would be left unfinished if I didn't throw in the two cents I started throwing in with my "+1" comment at the end of page 2.
So here's the other cent.

(I'm not going to hesitate with spoiling plots of anything, so don't bother reading if you're over-sensitive to that stuff)

I'll start with the strong points, and work down. The strongest point is easily the music. Thanks to Koji Kondo and whoever the heck else helped with the music, this has been consistent throughout the entire series as brilliant. Next is probably the item innovation. The spinner, double hookshot (I refuse to call it the clawshot. Stick to tradition in names, Nintendo) and dominion rod were all fantastic ideas... however, they were all drastically underused. All three items are pretty much designed to be used in dungeons, and in dungeons only. I can remember only a few uses of any of those items outside of dungeons.

I'll admit, I liked the fire dungeon. And I liked the Ganondorf fights, as well as the Zant fights, however all the other dungeons in the game were horrid, and I wasn't the biggest fan of any of the boss fights, either. Now we're onto not-so-good points, here's the negative side. The order of the dungeons is pretty ridiculous. I said earlier for Nintendo to stick to tradition in names earlier. Strictly in names. How many times have the first three dungeons been forest, fire, and then water themed, in that order? Ocarina of Time had that order, Majora's Mask had it, Wind Waker had it... Oh, and A Link to the Past had it. Also Minish Cap, and now Twilight Princess and Phantom Hourglass both have it. Surely five times preceding is enough? In fact, had the NES been capable of more, I'd say that the original Legend of Zelda had that pattern. Anyway, everything after the first three is even more boring than the pattern Nintendo are throwing into our faces.

The graphics are said to be realistic. Real life has more colours in its palette than grey, brown, dark green and black. Granted, the graphics are in a much more realistic style than the 3D predecessor, The Wind Waker, but in short, WW's graphics are simply better, due to having more colour, and being easier on the eyes. I seem to remember reading a comment from the developers along the lines of "We planned to improve the graphics for the Wii version, but never got round to it." I'd imagine the results were Link's, Zelda's and Ganondorf's models in Brawl. However even then, everything about the Eldin Bridge stage screams "MUD" at me, like the entire world did in Twilight Princess save for the sky, and the dungeons. Therefore pretty much the entire map.

Next up, the characters. The best comparison is Majora's Mask. I realise this is similar to me comparing the vampires in Twilight to those in Dracula, but that's the idea. In Majora's Mask, you got to know the characters, you got a feel for them. You wanted to help Kafei and Anju get married successfully, you wanted to save the Skull Kid from the curse of the Mask, you wanted to help the monkey at Deku Palace, you wanted to avenge the spirits of Darmani and Mikau. In Twilight Princess, Zelda kills herself for the sake of Midna who leaves at the end of the game, you have to fight Zelda possessed by Ganondorf, and Zant and Ganondorf kill eachother after you fought them. Talo, Malo (I take back my comment of sticking to traditions with names) and Colin are as far as I'm concerned, there for comedic effect, rather than plot advancements, which is what Midna and Zant are there for. Whenever I try to think of the name of the Zora prince, I think "Prince Komali" before "Prince Ralis". Perhaps the best characters in the game are the yeti couple, however. Their names escape me, but I remember laughing at them as I did at Tarin in Link's Awakening, which is perhaps the only good feeling I've gotten from Twilight Princess. Even Epona has more personality in the N64 games than here.

Although it only applies to one version of the game, the Wii controls are awful. Most notably, the controls for fishing. They are worse than the controls for fishing as Big in Sonic Adventure DX on Gamecube (I haven't played the original, so I wouldn't know). They aren't explained, you can't check on them, and I seem to remember the fetch quest at the beginning of the game taking me almost three hours because I didn't know this. Even on my first playthrough of it, as my first 3D Zelda, and being about 7 at the time, Ocarina of Time's fetch quest at the beginning took me about half an hour. The fantastic archery controls do not make up for this whatsoever. I'm sure the Gamecube version is significantly better than this, however due to it's much shorter supply, and how bad I consider the rest of the game, I'm not going to bother trying to get my hands on it. Oh, and I doubt the archery controls are anywhere near as good.

Now for the big rant, the sidequests. I was told before that saying +1 to the message about there not being any sidequests was wrong, due to the comment being wrong. The comment I +1'd was not wrong, merely miswritten. I believe what NotEnoughGolds meant to write was "There are no good/fun sidequests." Hunting bugs compares to hunting skulltulas. Except skulltulas are visible without using a microscope, and there's no real loss if you don't get them. In Twilight Princess, if you don't get the bugs, you don't get a bigger wallet, meaning you carry less money, meaning you can't pick up as much, meaning because Twilight Princess is dumb, you can't take money from chests if your wallet is full, meaning they're left on the map, and they are merely objects of confusion when you're looking for that last small key to open a door with. I believe I got into this situation in both the Water Palace and in Arbiter's Grounds. Another sidequest is poe catching... What. The. F***. Seriously, couldn't they come up with something new? This has already been in Ocarina of Time, and as stated, there's probably no reason to want to do it. In fact, you're effectively trying to save a selfish jerk. At least in Ocarina of Time, they didn't develop the character you were giving the poes to much further than a "collector" or "shopkeeper", because who will want to help a selfish, greedy jerk like him? I sure wouldn't.

And lastly, monotony. You're probably familiar with it, as you likely encountered it reading this. It is perhaps another reason I'm starting to dislike the Zelda series now my collection of the games has expanded from 5, to almost 15. I'm getting bored of the new entries. Why must the dungeon order be the same? Why must the core plot be the same? Why must the sidequests be the same? The bosses? The character names? Almost everything in Twilight Princess is reminiscent of Ocarina of Time. And the stuff that we expected to remain the same because it was good, they changed. Why add an extra heart piece for a full container? I believe I read "You got your second heart piece! You have 3 more to get until you have a new container!" as a typo the first time round. There are some things you should change because they get boring, and there are some things you need to change because they're simply bad. Of course, the opposite is also true, and perhaps moreso in the Zelda series. Zelda used to be a word that represented quality. Upon playing Twilight Princess, Minish Cap, and so on, I can no longer say that honestly.

You may read this as a "don't bother with TP" post. I'm sure if you don't mind playing carbon copies of games, you'd enjoy it. But I'd say stick to the older games. Even if the graphics aren't as pretty, that's not what Zelda, Nintendo, or gaming as a whole is about.

A few comments...

Again, you are doing what the other guy did - every Zelda does it, but now it's suddenly a problem in Twilight Princess. Argument doesn't stand.

The graphics are said to be realistic. Real life has more colours in its palette than grey, brown, dark green and black. Granted, the graphics are in a much more realistic style than the 3D predecessor, The Wind Waker, but in short, WW's graphics are simply better, due to having more colour, and being easier on the eyes.

I think you're right. Twilght Princess looks good, but it's too muddy in places, and overall, I think WindWaker looks better, has more charm, and is more impressive. For some reason lots of people want 'realistic' graphics in their Zelda games, whch is strange, as WindWaker and Link To The Past show quite clearly that Zelda actually works best with well done cartoony graphics.

Next up, the characters. The best comparison is Majora's Mask. I realise this is similar to me comparing the vampires in Twilight to those in Dracula, but that's the idea. In Majora's Mask, you got to know the characters, you got a feel for them. You wanted to help Kafei and Anju get married successfully, you wanted to save the Skull Kid from the curse of the Mask, you wanted to help the monkey at Deku Palace, you wanted to avenge the spirits of Darmani and Mikau.

...And you want to help Midna return to the Twilight Realm. Just saying 'every other Zelda did this and it was good, Twilight Princess did this and it was bad' isn't really going to work as an argument.

Even Epona has more personality in the N64 games than here.

Just not true, really.

Although it only applies to one version of the game, the Wii controls are awful. Most notably, the controls for fishing. They are worse than the controls for fishing as Big in Sonic Adventure DX on Gamecube (I haven't played the original, so I wouldn't know). They aren't explained, you can't check on them, and I seem to remember the fetch quest at the beginning of the game taking me almost three hours because I didn't know this. Even on my first playthrough of it, as my first 3D Zelda, and being about 7 at the time, Ocarina of Time's fetch quest at the beginning took me about half an hour.

Again, simply not true. The fishing 'controls' consist of selecting the fishing rod, which takes 2 seconds and is impossible to misunderstand, casting the rod, which is a single button press which the game displays on the screen, and then waiting for a fish to take your bobberfloat under the water and striking, which consists of moving your arm. It is a very simple process, and the fact that you, for some bizarre reason took 3 hours to complete this simple process is a reflection on you, not the game.

Sonic Adventure DX has no relevance in this argument.

Now for the big rant, the sidequests. I was told before that saying +1 to the message about there not being any sidequests was wrong, due to the comment being wrong. The comment I +1'd was not wrong, merely miswritten. I believe what NotEnoughGolds meant to write was "There are no good/fun sidequests." Hunting bugs compares to hunting skulltulas. Except skulltulas are visible without using a microscope, and there's no real loss if you don't get them.

Not to keep repeating myself, but your arguments consist of describing something in Twilight Princes which is the same as in every other Zelda, and suddenly claiming it's a problem. The sidequests are as good or fun as the sidequests in Windwaker, Ocarina, etc.

In Twilight Princess, if you don't get the bugs, you don't get a bigger wallet, meaning you carry less money, meaning you can't pick up as much, meaning because Twilight Princess is dumb, you can't take money from chests if your wallet is full, meaning they're left on the map, and they are merely objects of confusion when you're looking for that last small key to open a door with. I believe I got into this situation in both the Water Palace and in Arbiter's Grounds.

Hang on... the previous poster who didn't like Twilight Princess complained that you don't need to do any sidequests because you don't need the wallets... now you are complaining you have to do them because you need the wallet... damned if you do, damned if you don't.

You are right, in my opinion, on the 'putting things back if you haven't got space' thing... it makes it annoying when you have to re-enter temples. No idea why they made this change for the worse.

Another sidequest is poe catching... What. The. F***. Seriously, couldn't they come up with something new?

Again, like this in every Zelda, suddenly in Twilight Princess it's a problem... same argument, still not valid.

Why must the dungeon order be the same? Why must the core plot be the same? Why must the sidequests be the same? The bosses? The character names?

Well, that's Zelda, if you don't like it, don't play.

What do you do in Super Mario Bros? And Bros 3? And World? Pretty much the same thing.

And Mario 64? Sunshine? Galaxy? Pretty much the same thing. Bowser... Princess... mushrooms... jumping on things... coins... Koopas... if you don't like that, don't buy New Super Mario Bros Wii. No point in buying it, playing it, then complaining because it is what it is.

You may read this as a "don't bother with TP" post. I'm sure if you don't mind playing carbon copies of games, you'd enjoy it. But I'd say stick to the older games. Even if the graphics aren't as pretty, that's not what Zelda, Nintendo, or gaming as a whole is about.

Firstly, the older games, to use your argument, would be the same as Twilight Princess, and most people would find, say, Ocarina, to be Twilight Princess-lite, with clunky controls and bad graphics. No reason to stick to the older games if you don't like the series. If you don't like the series, play something else.

Secondly I read this as a don't play TP post... but without reasons not to play it that hold water on close inspection.

Apart from the bit about WindWaker looking very good, perhaps even better due to the style, and the slight problem with putting rupees back if you have no space in your wallet, you were simply complaining about things that have been the way they have, in one form or another since The Legend of Zelda on the NES.

Wow, that's a mouthful. ^^

Just to put in my 2 cents, I always found Twilight Princess to be the culmination of the series. It took some of the best elements from all the other Zelda games and for the most part, expanded on them. It was a refreshingly familiar and well-excecuted game, and I loved every minute of it, even on my second time through. It had almost everything I could hope for from a Zelda game, and I'd be hard pressed to come up with a good reason not to like it. Sure, it's not the most innovative Zelda game ever, but we already had that with Wind Waker or Okami. To me, it was about time for a return to form.

For me, as a long-time Zelda fan, Twilight Princess was one of the best gams I'd played in a very long time, and it still is today.

Don't try Zelda 2 first; it's one of the most addicting RPGs ever made!!!! ^^

This should be fun...

I never said it wasn't a problem in other games, however. In A Link to the Past, it's new, therefore there is no real pattern, as such. In Ocarina of Time, the order is the same, but seeing as Ocarina is how a lot of people were introduced to Zelda, there isn't really any problem, like before. In Majora's Mask, the order is once again the same, and it's starting to get a little tiresome. At Wind Waker, the pattern's pretty boring, and once we get to Twilight Princess, the order is just dull and monotonous.

I can't come up with an argument against wanting to get Midna back to the Twilight Realm, but I can say that you've brought up one example against five from Majora's Mask, from which there are plenty more, and several more from other games in the series.

In a game which has fishing, firstly, I would expect some indication of the fish taking the bait, such as a rumble, or a noise. This goes alongside the bobber float go underwater. This does not happen in Twilight Princess, whereas it does in other games involving fishing (Ocarina of Time, Harvest Moon, Sonic Adventure, etc.) Secondly, if reeling does not happen instantly, I would expect to have to do it myself, via some sort of action. In the three examples I gave, you fight with the fish while to pull it towards you. Perhaps I disliked the controls because they were different to my previous experiences of fishing in games, but I know I'm not alone in disliking them.

My argument is that doing the same stuff, when that stuff is worse, is boring.

Again, it's been used so many times, and is now just boring. Besides, it's worse now. In Ocarina of Time, there were ten big poes to catch. In Twilight Princess, there are 60. In Ocarina of Time, they are all available at the very start of the sidequest. In Twilight Princess, you can't finish until you have access to every inch of the Hyrule, including dungeons. In Twilight Princess, the poes could be anywhere, in Ocarina of Time, you know they're all on Hyrule field, it's just a matter of where. The end prize for collecting all the poes in Ocarina of Time is a bottle. To get the bottle in Twilight Princess, you need to do twice as much work. And what do you get for collecting all 60? Infinite money, which is completely useless in a Zelda game if you're already as far as you need to be to have all 60.

At least Bowser uses some variety in his plans, and where he uses them. Ganondorf is always the same: Take over Hyrule. My two favourite Zelda titles (Link's Awakening and Majora's Mask) don't follow this. Goombas, Koopas and Piranha Plants are all classic enemies in the same way that Stalfos, Moblins and Octoroks are, and should all be kept in the series, however in Mario, there is at least some originality in the variations. There's probably 20 types of Koopa Troopa and 12 types of Goomba, to 4 types of Octorok and 2 types of Moblin.

The older games, to use my argument, would be Twilight Princess, with a lower polygon count but more colour, and far better characters, story and sidequests, and more traditional controls. To my knowledge, people who played both versions of Twilight Princess preferred the Gamecube controls, which I believe are the same, if not very similar, to the Wind Waker's controls, which are the same as Ocarina of Time's and Majora's Mask's when played on a Gamecube pad. And D-pad control has been tried and tested, and proven great in most overhead-perspective games, Zelda or otherwise, from the NES era onwards. So the controls aren't clunky in the older games, either.

I have played almost all of the Zelda games through. Link's Awakening is my favorite. But TP? Well...

For me, the key moment in TP was after the first dungeon (IIRC) - where the game opens out into Hyrule Field, and the whole world stands before you. And the music strikes up, siring your emotions to fight the good fight...

And I just stared at it and thought... oh for f***s sake, not again.

I just couldn't do it any more. I put the game back in the box, and haven't touched it (or any other Zelda) since.

Then don't play Zelda anymore. You should have realised now that since A Link To The Past, with perhaps the exception of Majora's Mask, each new Zelda is simply a re-telling of the same basic story.

In a game which has fishing, firstly, I would expect some indication of the fish taking the bait, such as a rumble, or a noise.

There is an indication - the float goes under the water, it really couldn't be more simple. There is no need for a rumble, a noise, or a giant purple arrow pointing at the float with the words OMFG DID YOU SEE THAT, YOUR FLOAT JUST WENT, LIKE, TOTALLY UNDER THE WATER DUDE, STRIKE, FOR THE LOVE OF JESUS, STRIKE MAN!!!!1!111!!!!!

The float goes under, you strike. Explain to me exactly what you found hard about this?

Perhaps I disliked the controls because they were different to my previous experiences of fishing in games, but I know I'm not alone in disliking them.

The fishing controls could not be more simple, you being or not being alone in not liking them doesn't change this.

Again, it's been used so many times, and is now just boring. Besides, it's worse now. In Ocarina of Time, there were ten big poes to catch. In Twilight Princess, there are 60.

So your argument is Twilight Princess is worse because it's got more... nope, that's not going to work.

In Twilight Princess, the poes could be anywhere, in Ocarina of Time, you know they're all on Hyrule field, it's just a matter of where.

Ah. So you want less poes and less places to look. Can't see why this is better.

At least Bowser uses some variety in his plans, and where he uses them.

Yeah... sometimes he kidnaps the Princess, and sometimes he... kidnaps the Princess. Regardless of this, the plot in a Mario game means nothing anyway. It's not about that.

Ganondorf is always the same: Take over Hyrule.

As I said, you don't seem to understand that the Zelda games are retellings of the same story, pretty much. If you are bored of this, don't play.

The older games, to use my argument, would be Twilight Princess, with a lower polygon count but more colour, and far better characters, story and sidequests, and more traditional controls.

It seems you are bored of Zelda, not Twilight Princess, as your reasons for not liking it do not hold on close inspection.

It seems you are bored of Zelda, not Twilight Princess, as your reasons for not liking it do not hold on close inspection.

Yeah, that seems to be the long and short of it for a lot of people - they're just sick of Zelda. Personally, I can't get enough of it, despite playing the games for over a decade.

Trin has become my new NintendoLife user
I pray I never say anything rambling and stupid, for fear he would systematically dismantle my argument line by line.
Good work man. If I knew how to seperate quotes like that I totally would've done the same thing

You mean like I did? Well aren't you nice. >_>

Another use of the quote button: Finding out how people formatted their post.

That may be true, but I generally like the gameplay of Zelda titles, and expect a fresh plot from Nintendo every now and then.

You mean besides the fact that 4 times out of 5 when I "strike when the float goes under", it doesn't bring up a fish? As I said, in most games, the controller rumbles when a fish is hooked. In this game, the float goes under, and more often than not, a fish isn't actually hooked.

I believe the original argument was "TP: Good or bad game"? If it is an unpopular aspect of a game, surely it's a problem, and needs changing? I for one would prefer to have to reel in the fish myself, or have it happen instantly. Not to have Link do it for me, as this is disorienting.

Collecting 10 poes in 4 batches is a fun sidetrack, but collecting 6 times as many is just a chore.

Sometimes he kidnaps the princess in her own castle, and sometimes he kidnaps the princess on her vacation. And sometimes, even in space. Ganondorf goes around Hyrule, trying to capture the princess every few hundred years, pretending he's trying something new each time. As you've said, the plot in each Zelda game is roughly the same, and the plot in Mario doesn't matter, but at least Mario's plots seem to have something new each time.

The plot isn't all I play Zelda for. I like the core Zelda gameplay, I just don't like how everything is identical to how it was 10, 12, 15 years ago.

No, I'm bored of how Twilight Princess is more of the same. If I wanted to play Ocarina of Time, I'd play Ocarina of Time. I'd happily play that any day of the week. I'd be willing to play Okami, despite similarity between that and Twilight Princess, because from what I can make from what I've been told, it's effectively Twilight Princess' innovations done well, and less of a carbon copy of Ocarina of Time.

So yeah, I'm not bored of Zelda. I'd happily replay Link's Awakening or Wind Waker any time. In fact, I've been considering replaying the original game lately, or maybe Link's Awakening. It's Twilight Princess being a practical clone of Ocarina of Time, with a bunch of bad stuff mixed in, that I'm tired of.

Well, as in real fishing, you don't always get the fish when you strike. The game does give you various options, such as bait, and hook upgrades, all of which are there to increase the rate you can catch fish at. It is in no way disorientating to have Link reel the fish in himself... the fishing controls are fine, you can nitpick tiny details if you like, the fact remains, the controls work fine.

Collecting 10 poes in 4 batches is a fun sidetrack, but collecting 6 times as many is just a chore.

Don't do it then, it's a sidequest, the whole point is you can do it if you want, and not do it if you don't want.

Sometimes he kidnaps the princess in her own castle, and sometimes he kidnaps the princess on her vacation.

Haha. Big deal.

There hasn't been any real change in the core plot of Mario (Bowser kidnaps Princess, Mario rescues Princess) since 1986.

No, I'm bored of how Twilight Princess is more of the same.

Yes, but all Zelda games are more of the same, this is the point.

So yeah, I'm not bored of Zelda. I'd happily replay Link's Awakening or Wind Waker any time. In fact, I've been considering replaying the original game lately, or maybe Link's Awakening. It's Twilight Princess being a practical clone of Ocarina of Time, with a bunch of bad stuff mixed in, that I'm tired of.

Your reasons are so flimsy though. A slight problem wit how a fish is reeled in... suddenly expecting this Zelda to be completely different from the last, when that's not how Zelda works. The 'bad stuff' that is 'mixed in' as you put it is simply the same Zelda gameplay that has been around, in one form or another, since The Legend of Zelda on the NES, and in 3D form since Ocarina of Time.

I say again, if this is a problem now, don't play... that's what Zelda is.

Was not my favorite Zelda game, story was stale, but yet, I still found myself playing for 8 hours straight without realizing it completely immersed. It may get old, but even then it's still fun.

Hoping for a little extra innovation in the sequel though. That's usually what happens, the sequels have more creative stories.

Slash, those last few posts need to win some award for "longest post I will never read."

Anyway, to the OP, glad you're enjoying aLttP, I'm looking forward to playing it myself some day when I have time.

If you're sick of the same plot, why did you buy the game? Read a review for crying out loud! What did you expect? For the next Zelda game, however, it's pretty much a promise that it's going to be different...

Yeah...Twilight Princess was always marketed as "more of the same, but better". It was the answer to all those who wanted Wind Waker to be more like Ocarina of time. If you had followed it at all, it would've been pretty easy to see long beforehand.

I'll admit, I'm happy to see a return to form every once and a while, I do hope the new Zelda will, indeed be different...or a new Four Swords games.

"Collecting 10 poes in 4 batches is a fun sidetrack, but collecting 6 times as many is just a chore."
Thank you.
Here's another example - heart containers
Zelda - 5 secret heart containers for a yield of 5 additional hearts
Zelda II - 4 secret heart containers for a yield of 4 additional life bars
LttP - 24 secret heart pieces for a yield of 6 additional hearts
OoT - 36 secret heart pieces for a yield of 9 additional hearts
MM - 52 secret heart pieces for a yield of 13 additional hearts
TP - 45 secret heart pieces for a yield of 9 additional hearts
(omitted WW because it wasn't as easy to find the exact # of pieces)

Adding more stuff to collect for a lesser reward makes a task that was once fun, now tedious. As much as I loved Majora's Mask, I didn't love that there were fifty-two heart pieces.
Collecting 60 poes or 32 (?) golden bugs for an unfulfilling reward makes the sidequest a chore rather than an enjoyable gameplay experience.

And repeating over and over again, "All Zelda's are like this, and now it's suddenly a problem in Twilight Princess?" as a rebuttal against everything doesn't cut it. There has been a lot of innovation in each and every console entry since the beginning of the series except for Twilight Princess.
I already listed these innovations in a previous post and will not list them again. If you can't see how Wind Waker is different from Majora's Mask is different from Ocarina of Time is different from Link to the Past is different from Zelda II is different from Zelda, then... that's just a little strange.

Ah I see. You buy a Zelda game, then you complain because it has elements of gameplay that all Zelda games have. Gotta love that logic.

I mean, are you honestly reduced, in your attempts to find fault with Twilight Princess, to whining because there are 9 more heart pieces to find over Ocarina of Time?

And I say again - if you don't like it, don't do it. It's a sidequest. Just saying 'thank you' will not make this fact any less true.

I could tie you in knots by pointing out that firstly you complain that Twilight Princess isn't different enough... then you point out a tiny difference in the number of heart pieces, and complain.

I mean, listen, every man is entitled to his opinion, but at least think before you post.

And repeating over and over again, "All Zelda's are like this, and now it's suddenly a problem in Twilight Princess?" as a rebuttal against everything doesn't cut it.

I think you will find it wil more than 'cut it' when that is exactly what is happening. You've even started doing it yourself.

If you can't see how Wind Waker is different from Majora's Mask is different from Ocarina of Time is different from Link to the Past is different from Zelda II is different from Zelda, then... that's just a little strange.

Twilight Princess is a continuation of the Zelda series, and you complain about it, without really knowing why, it seems.

OoT FTW!!!!

OoT FTW!!!!

oops... double post