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Topic: Why platform games now focus on unlimited lives?

Posts 21 to 39 of 39

GuSolarFlare

lives aren't needed anymore, they just need to put some other punishment that only players looking for a real challenge will care about(like a loss counter or a timer penalty) and it's already enough

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Socar

WaLzgi wrote:

At the same time, if the game is so hard that lives make you start over, how will that motivate players to make progress. I don't want to beat a level only to have to do it again because I lost in a later level.

You have unlimited continues to make up for that. Also the fact that checkpoints are added are good enough to motivate the player to play more.

Yes actually. The gaming market is changing, so having nearly every game be "retro" isn't really moving forward with the market. With that said, I don't think having some retro games is bad.

I think I want to take that back because I love Pixel art so rock on retro! 8)

So how is this supposed to be a counterpoint to the lives being "archaic"?

Tradition wise its how it should be. If there should be unlimited lives, make it so it is challenging without having to go unnecessary punishment. Having lives develops more responsibility and awareness.

I think the best way to tackle the issue is to make a difficulty setting. I would like something similar to Fire Emblem: Awakening's brilliant settings. FEA had the classic setting for those who like being masochistic and an easier setting for those who want to enjoy the game without being slaughtered. For platformers, a setting can include lives vs. unlimited lives, where you start over, etc.

The problem is that not everyone would want unlimited lives unless the challenge is fairly balanced. Making the challenge in unlimited lives is difficult because there is so little to compensate the difficulty. where as having lives has a lot of uniqueness because of the opportunities it can give.

I can agree that FEA has a brilliant setting but since its not a platform game and that these sort of games already have these kinds of settings, I wouldn't differ this from platform games.

That's my point. A game can be enjoyable without being brutal and punishing to the player. If a game only has a punishing difficulty, it will only be niche. However if the game had an easier setting or adjustable difficulty like FEA, it can be enjoyed by a much larger audience. So yes, the retro brutal difficulty is archaic and outdated.

many platform games do have that difficulty setting. Sonic 3 & Knuckles, Kirby: Nightmare in Dreamland and many others. Problem is, the pointless achievements is where it comes at for the majority of them.

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Dave24

CanisWolfred wrote:

Because it was a pointless mechanic that never served any positive purpose in the first place, and the only people who ever liked them were sadomasochistic elitists who think gaming is some kind of exclusive club that everybody needs to be hazed before being able to get in. Newsflash, normal people don't like being punished by their "entertainment".

/thread

It only prolonged short game.

Beat Alien Soldier on hard mode. If you don't know what it is, both the game and setting, then I don't know why are you even here talking about this topic.

Edited on by Dave24

Dave24

unrandomsam

FEA had the classic setting for those who like being masochistic and an easier setting for those who want to enjoy the game without being slaughtered.

That is a bad example. The casual setting misses loads of the content and the classic setting is not properly balanced.

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GuSolarFlare

unrandomsam wrote:

FEA had the classic setting for those who like being masochistic and an easier setting for those who want to enjoy the game without being slaughtered.

That is a bad example. The casual setting misses loads of the content and the classic setting is not properly balanced.

that is a good one, because it's completely optional and what content does it lose?(other than being on the edge all the time to not make bad choices, didn't play on casual so I don't know)

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unrandomsam

Shovel Knight I went through in about 4 hrs never needed to get any better or really improved the whole time.

Got lucky on nearly all the hard bits. (Feels like cheating to me inside getting lucky in any game)

Megaman 3 which I have just started playing. Lots of repetition but I am improving quickly and genuinely getting better.

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Hy8ogen

Because the majority of gamers nowadays are stupid and have no patience to master a game. It's the truth.

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WiiWareWave

unrandomsam wrote:

Shovel Knight I went through in about 4 hrs never needed to get any better or really improved the whole time.
Got lucky on nearly all the hard bits. (Feels like cheating to me inside getting lucky in any game)

Megaman 3 which I have just started playing. Lots of repetition but I am improving quickly and genuinely getting better.

I agree, though Shovel Knight is a great game, but without the dreaded game over screen you aren't forced to improve your skills which is part of what made classic games so thrilling.

Edited on by WiiWareWave

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sinalefa

I prefer to have unlimited lives. If you want to improve or give yourself a challenge, be creative and do so on your own. Like Shovel Knight's beat the game without dying once or falling in a bottomless pit.

I just don't want to waste my time farming lives just to get past a hard (and sometimes cheap and unfair) level. That is artificially extending length, like grinding on JRPGs.

Since a lot of the NES era kids are now adults with responsibilities, limited time and access to many games because of income, I prefer when one invests in a game because the gameplay rewards you, not because it punishes you. As you get old you start to appreciate your time more and more.

Edited on by sinalefa

I will comment in this thread, never being able to find it again.

Ryno

Unlimited continues is one thing I'm ok with for platformers where you start back at the beginning of the level , but nearly unlimited lives with 4 checkpoints per level is just ridiculous. It's like giving everyone a trophy just for participating

Untitled

Edited on by Ryno

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Hy8ogen

@Ryno Dang I miss the ink ribbons for Resident Evil 1~3 lol. Once you ran out of ribbons, you're screwed.

Edited on by Hy8ogen

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unrandomsam

GuSolarFlare wrote:

lives aren't needed anymore, they just need to put some other punishment that only players looking for a real challenge will care about(like a loss counter or a timer penalty) and it's already enough

It is not though because the level design is changed as well.

What 3D Land did with a set of similar but much harder levels worked.

Or make the jumps need more perfection and require the extra moves they added. (3D World has the spin / backflip / wall jumps / long jump loads of them and they are barely needed).

Or two games Super Mario Bros / Super Mario Bros 2 (Japan).

(There are quite easy ways to please everybody which is what Nintendo says they do. The normal / difficult thing Megaman 2 does by filling in some platforms and stuff is another easy thing.)

Edited on by unrandomsam

“30fps Is Not a Good Artistic Decision, It's a Failure”
Freedom of the press is for those who happen to own one.

unrandomsam

sinalefa wrote:

I prefer to have unlimited lives. If you want to improve or give yourself a challenge, be creative and do so on your own. Like Shovel Knight's beat the game without dying once or falling in a bottomless pit.

I just don't want to waste my time farming lives just to get past a hard (and sometimes cheap and unfair) level. That is artificially extending length, like grinding on JRPGs.

Since a lot of the NES era kids are now adults with responsibilities, limited time and access to many games because of income, I prefer when one invests in a game because the gameplay rewards you, not because it punishes you. As you get old you start to appreciate your time more and more.

The best games for people with limited time are old arcade games. Designed to be great from the get go and only last a tiny amount of time on one credit which is perfect for limited time.

“30fps Is Not a Good Artistic Decision, It's a Failure”
Freedom of the press is for those who happen to own one.

rolLTheDice

WaLzgi wrote:

Some games like Rayman Origins difficulty suffer because of this fact. Sure you can complain that New Super Mario bros 2 had the pointless lives thing that there's no point in getting a game over for most platform games.

I think the best way to tackle the issue is to make a difficulty setting.

Exactly what i wanted to say when i read Metal Slug.
The collection on the Wii had the option of unlimited lives so you could play the game any way you want. I don't get why that would be a problem.
You know there was a time when cheat codes were a big thing. Why not make these options easily accessible to everyone to be able to sell more games?
I mean i like the way Nintendo handles potential frustration in SMB 3 and the newer Mario games but i don't think it makes sense for every game out there.

Edit: And if you think you're the cream of the crop just because you beat a very challenging game you better think again.

Edited on by rolLTheDice

rolLTheDice

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spizzamarozzi

I think unlimited lives are functional when it comes to games totally based on trial and error (VVVVVV, Pyramids etc) but I am against it in games that don't require a particular kind of dexterity. I understand many people don't want to be punished by their entertainment, but if there's no punishment there's no reward either.

I don't think the problem is the TIME people can spend practicing a game. Gamers are gaming more and more, so time isn't an issue apparently. The problem is that people nowdays can own an unlimited quantity of games, so if they get stuck on some level for more than 5 minutes they have the luxury of feeling frustrated and simply start another game.

There was no such thing as "frustration" when the lives system was invented.

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rolLTheDice

Also: Stuff like achievements, real endings and exclusive levels. If you can only unlock these things by beating the game in a harder mode where there's an actual penalty for dying i'll always be motivated to play it again in these modes.
I mean when we're talking about games like Contra 4 and Metal Slug Anthology i see no problem in doing just that.
I can't remember ever having a problem with the limited lives in Nintendo titles, so they might as well be unlimited there.

Edited on by rolLTheDice

rolLTheDice

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unrandomsam

Metal Slug Anthology is a waste of time. (Doing what I did just for Metal Slug 1 would have taken an insane amount of time).

Getting so I could do just Metal Slug 1 on MVS difficulty took ages but it was done in steps.

First all levels using the 5 credits default in order.

Then try and do each level again using 2 or 3.

Then each level using one.

Then the whole thing using one.

3 or X are much harder (Especially the final mission of 3 which the best I have ever done is 4 credits but the final mission of X I cannot do in two credits either).

The VC releases have 5 levels of difficulty that mainly affect the amount of health the bosses have and the speed and number of the bullets. (Arcade default is 4 - AES default is 3).

I think you can give yourself more lives per credit as well but I never have.

Chronicles of Mystara is the same if you only want to play it for a bit you end up not practising the right part.

The limited lives in the NES version of the Lost Levels is a big part of the difficulty it removes a large amount of the luck from it.

(The version in All Stars or SMB Deluxe is a waste of time because it is only one level at a time all that is needed is to be lucky once per level which just takes time but there is no point in that.)

Edited on by unrandomsam

“30fps Is Not a Good Artistic Decision, It's a Failure”
Freedom of the press is for those who happen to own one.

unrandomsam

Adding the option of unlimited lives for old games that didn't have them doesn't make it worse for anybody. Mandating it does.

“30fps Is Not a Good Artistic Decision, It's a Failure”
Freedom of the press is for those who happen to own one.

Ryno

unrandomsam wrote:

Shovel Knight I went through in about 4 hrs never needed to get any better or really improved the whole time.

Got lucky on nearly all the hard bits. (Feels like cheating to me inside getting lucky in any game)

Megaman 3 which I have just started playing. Lots of repetition but I am improving quickly and genuinely getting better.

unrandomsam wrote:

The limited lives in the NES version of the Lost Levels is a big part of the difficulty it removes a large amount of the luck from it.

(The version in All Stars or SMB Deluxe is a waste of time because it is only one level at a time all that is needed is to be lucky once per level which just takes time but there is no point in that.)

Gamers today are like Lefty Gomez, "I'd rather be lucky than good.”

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