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Topic: Why people aren't respecting Nintendo?

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Artwark

41. Posted:

ferthepoet wrote:

Artwark wrote:

ferthepoet wrote:

@Artwark Most Nintendo first party games follow this conventions: Graphics are cartoony, Protagonist is silent or have very little dialogue and has no clear personality and no clear motivations for doing what they do, story is of the excuse plot variety (only fire emblem game have a little bit of story and they are still light on story for their genre), I'm not saying those things are bad, but when you have no third party support the lack of games with realistic graphics and story driven games really shows........

Same can be said for Sony. Most are realistic big time and have that same gameplay aspect.

Seriously, there are only four of the New Super Mario Bros games out of which only one of them isn't that great.

Most but not all there are plenty of Cartoony games (Little Big Planet, R & C, Sly Cooper, All Stars) while Nintendo does not have a single first party realistic looking game..

Metroid........ Also there's Eternal Darkness.

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Dreamz

42. Posted:

Artwark wrote:

ferthepoet wrote:

Most but not all there are plenty of Cartoony games (Little Big Planet, R & C, Sly Cooper, All Stars) while Nintendo does not have a single first party realistic looking game..

Metroid........ Also there's Eternal Darkness.

The fact that both of your examples are from the previous generation years ago (ED was actually Gamecube, if I recall) should tell you something.

Edited on by Dreamz

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ShadyKnights

43. Posted:

Well my friend, it's a great many things compounding upon one another. Firstly, it all stems back to when Nintendo saved the gaming industry. Rather odd yes, but every time people talk of why Nintendo are where they are today in a negative sense, they harken back to the olden days when they were so "mean" and acted like "dictators" to the gaming publishers. See people love to repeat the publishers complaints about those days, but really, when one looks at their actions objectively and not from them, a more clear picture can be seen. The publishers were killing themselves and Nintendo wanted to actually make money with their console, so they set up rules that were akin to making a child eat their vegetables, exercise and do their homework. It seemed a little cruel or mean, until one stops and considers the quality of games that were released back in the day. Not all were fantastic, but it's called the golden age of gaming for a reason.

Next we have a cast of people repeating that Nintendo has kiddie games or that they don't have mature games when really people mean they don't have a large selection of very violent games to appear on their console. You see, people equate violence with maturity. However, Nintendo has games like Majora's Mask(a game pretty much centered around the aspects of death), you have Dark Matter in Kirby games which transforms into hellish demonic forms at times, the Metroid Prime series, and 999. Maturity is actually about restraint, discipline, and control. One could actually say platformers are the ultimate mature game as they're generally about learning the mechanics then mastering them. People also attribute colors for something childish or "kiddie" when the actual world outside is quite vibrant and colorful when one doesn't look in a city for said color. Even then, the color is not gaudy, or improperly applied, but the fact that the color is so prominent people attribute it to something immature.

Next we have people saying that they are not graphically powerful and that that is important for a game. We have plenty of designers and publishers praising SonySoft for the gigaflops and graphics cards and even Nomura talking about how much more he has to work on KH3 because of all the possibilities open to him. These people who demand to be called artists, the fans who blindly call them artists, fail to see or even understand that great works can be made with anything. In fact, generally the best work comes from restriction rather than from freedom. It is through restrictions that innovation must occur and where Nintendo stands king. However, people relegate innovation to ugly terms like gimmicks and say innovation should not occur without the developers asking for it, rather than chiding the developers lack of vision or ambition to make use of a mechanic in a way that is not gimmicky.

Last generation people became effusive with the concept that it was horrible for Nintendo to dare to offer the fun of gaming to people why never would have considered picking up a console before the Wii. People took the motion controls the Wii offered and scoffed at them, relegating them to gimmicky controls and started throwing terms like "hardcore" or "core gamers" around to place themselves on a pedestal above people who had come to learn that playing games isn't creepy or weird, but actually fun. Rather than inviting these new gamers into the fold with open arms, people latched onto the paranoid idea that Nintendo had abandoned them, when they only sought to invite more into the gaming sphere.

People like to talk about the 3DS and WiiU gaming drought in their first year while not recalling that this was to give third party developers time to make games for their consoles. People forget the praise and adoration lauded on them by EA in 2010 and blame Nintendo for EA reneging on the promised support. People blame Nintendo for third party publishers complaining that they can't compete with Nintendo's first parties, then not releasing anything when there is no first party to compete with.

Fankly people disrespect Nintendo because they are parroting sheep. They allow themselves to believe that they, a simple consumer, would know more about business than the people who moved from a card company into video games and made a consistent profit for roughly 30 years yet still, unlike Sony who is only three generations old, still does something new with every successor to it's console. Even when the GameCube didn't end as popular as the PS2, Nintendo still tried something different. Even though they are the ones who have been slapped in the face by third parties whom are thankful to them for their current existence (Square & Capcom most especially) they still offer them a friendly hand and smile.

People disrespect Nintendo, because Nintendo respects people. People are hardwired to look down on modesty, kindness, or integrity, especially those with Western values. Patience is laziness or cowardice. Failure to immediately react the expected way and you're weird or stupid. Failure to conform to conventions and to succeed while doing so, annoys and angers people, and they would rather vote on the safe bet rather than the risky one. People much more prefer to sound right and be wrong, rather than to sound wrong and be right.

Edited on by ShadyKnights

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Cia

44. Posted:

@ShadyKnights
That was the best post i've read in a long time.

Cia

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Artwark

45. Posted:

@ShadyKnights

True words have never been spoken in a long time.

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Ryno

46. Posted:

@ShadyKnights:
Untitled

Edited on by Ryno

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turtlelink

47. Posted:

Swiket wrote:

Artwark wrote:

I'll agree that PC is the easiest way of gaming but even PC is slowly dying out even with Steam.

What makes you say that?

I'm pretty sure it's the complete opposite...

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Tops

48. Posted:

@ShadyKnights I think there are some life lessons in there. Nicely put, my friend.

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Memeboy3

49. Posted:

@ShadyKnights
That.....Was so Beautiful... ;_;
This Post needs to be Known around the Gaming community immedietly!

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bezerker99

50. Posted:

I believe people started disrespecting Nintendo in 1995 when Ninty decided to not embrace CD-based games and instead stuck with their archaic cartridge format. That was a pivotal moment. Nintendo is still, in a way, playing catchup in the industry it helped save.

Edited on by bezerker99

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Zombie_Barioth

51. Posted:

@ShadyKnights
Nice post, very well written.

I wouldn't exactly call what Nintendo did back in the day "tough love" though, We're talking about a company known for monopolistic tactics after all. Even as recent as the Gamecube days they were caught calling 3rd parties "useless". It might not be an issue now but a lot of their decisions back then are the cause of their problems now. A lot of the games that made the NES and SNES big are gone, the Final Fantasies, the Street Fighters, ect. are all but gone. They lost those from sticking to carts and using mini-discs.

Also, a lot of these "parroting sheep" have valid criticism towards Nintendo. Theres a reason people feel that Nintendo "abandoned them", and the motion controls are the least of that problem. It certainly wouldn't have anything to do with most of their efforts being geared toward mass-appeal would it? The fact that MK Wii nearly sold as much as both main Mario games combined says something about their approach, NSMB and Mario Galaxy were two of the Wii's best sellers, MK Wii was either 2nd or 3rd behind Wii Sports and I think Wii Play. Those same games are what they've been trying to save the Wii U with.

While not every piece of criticism is reasonable, Nintendo isn't nor should be exempt from criticism simply because its Nintendo.

Zombie_Barioth

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BinaryFragger

52. Posted:

@ShadyKnights
Sadly, Nintendo burned a lot of bridges. They were fined €149 million for price fixing between 1991-1998, they were investigated by the US Congress, and as you said, they told unflattering things about 3rd party developers.
sub12 posted a great article in the forums a few months ago about this:
http://www.dromble.com/2014/01/07/dolphin-tale-story-of-gamec...

I agree with ShadyKnights that they had to be tough with developers in the NES era (the early and mid 80s were flooded with crap games) but they were a little TOO tough, and continued doing so well into the early 2000s. Nintendo has done many great things, but they've also made mistakes. People tend to remember the mistakes the most.

Edited on by BinaryFragger

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ShadyKnights

53. Posted:

Wow, um, thanks for the kind words to my post guys.

@Zombie_Barioth
I didn't call what Nintendo did back in the day tough love either... I said it was akin to telling your children to eat their veggies, exercise, and to do their homework. That's telling them to be responsible. Which is what saved gaming. Yeah, Nintendo had an invested stake in them doing well, I don't believe I eluded towards anything opposing that premise, but Nintendo was level headed enough to set rules aside that would breathe life into the industry and would help keep it stable. Also, if third parties are useless to Nintendo, I don't see how that is Nintendo's fault for calling them out on that. Calling a cat a cat is fine if it's a cat. During the GameCube era third parties were useless to Nintendo so them calling them such... well I personally don't see anything wrong with that as publishers and fans of said publishers blindly lie about Nintendo's relevance to the industry even when facts present otherwise.

The argument about cartridges is also a misguided argument since; again, this is just an excuse for not working harder on making a better game. Nintendo can reliably churn out great games for every generation for their console, so to say that they absolutely needed to go disc based when cartridges were doing fine is fallacious. Also, the mini discs storage size is un-important in the age where we were still swapping disks, so if anyone actually put work in a game, the consumer would have to just disc swap, which was common at the time. Heck some XBox 360 games have multiple disks (Star Ocean 4 and Mass Effect 2 for example) so again, the GameCube disk size is unimportant. (Wow this sentence sounds awkward 0,o)

Parroting sheep have no valid criticisms. There are people who have issues with some of the things Nintendo does, but those people are reasonable and can keep their wants in relation to what is good for the company, and consumer and that nice middle ground of what you know to expect from them. As I said earlier, Nintendo didn't abandon gamers with the Wii, they invited the non-gamers into the pool to play with gamers. And as I said, some felt threatened and dejected by this and latched onto the parroting point of Nintendo doesn't care about them. It is unfair to say NSMB is pandering to mass appeal when you have Mario Galaxy 1 and 2 for the more niche group. The niche has been given its game, why can no one else have theirs? Why can no one else have the opportunity to slowly get into Mario, find that they want to play something of a grander scope than NSMB and then realize there is Mario Galaxy 1 and 2 and Super Mario 3D World now open to them?

There is nothing wrong with wanting a broader audience. And at the very least, at least Nintendo is going after that audience in the one way SonySoft is not, with games. Not with streaming games, Skyping with games, or talking to your games, but with games to play. Games for the more focused gamer, to the one that just wants to chill and play a game and enjoy it. To separate the two is showing a lack of respect to not Nintendo really, but to the people who genuinely have fun playing the games and that is disgusting. When I got into gaming it wasn't shunned in my group of friends, but you let a teacher hear you talking about how much you love games and suddenly "You don't do anything but play them games. That's what causes shootings. If you'd get off them games you could focus on school work." I'm not trying to condescend to you or start a fight, but that's what you sound like when you talk about "mass appeal" of gaming. You're literally saying there is something wrong with more people playing games that you yourself love. Sure you may not like the exact games that they enjoy playing, but we all didn't start playing the higher tiered games. Being eased into more difficult games with a more accessible game is perfectly fine and good for the industry as a broader group of people mean more niches to be filled. Meaning now they have to think about games we would never have seen if say a certain demographic that any one of us just so happen to also be a part of didn't get into gaming.

There is no abandonment from Nintendo to the gamer, it is only the reverse. To say the opposite is to project one's own abandonment of Nintendo and the new gamers onto Nintendo and to play the victim.

Criticism is a word people grossly misuse. As a college art student for over 7 years now, I have been a part of many critique sessions and to critique is what you mean when you sat criticize. Critiquing requires you to list pros and cons and then state how the piece as a whole works. As a whole, with Nintendo's problems looked at objectively, its fine. The company is solid. They have an image problem, but can't really fix that unless the gaming journalists actually start doing their job, informing the consumer. To just say everything isn't kittens and roses is to undermine the success and therefor failing to criticize and is instead, complaining.

As a whole, the XBOne only works because of the PR of it having good online and it being for the alleged "hardcore gamer" console. Were it properly criticized, the wasteful addition of the Kinect that developers seem to have no intention to work on severely hinders the console, as well as its focus on stopping gamers from playing with the TV additions. This is not the same as the Gamepad since Nintendo themselves believe in it enough to add some functionality in it, into their games themselves if need be.

Were the PS4 properly criticized it would be stated that it is doing well only because of the PR of last E3 after Microsoft botched 2 chances to make their console and company not seem completely disgusting. With half truths about DRM that Sony is more than happy to allow for third party, and how they spun them always allowing you to share your games when they only meant first party is actually akin to just tracing a pretty picture and saying you drew it yourself. Technically you did, but functionally you did not.

Where the Wii U to be properly criticized it would be spoken of the why the gaming drought exists. Not in hyperbole, but in facts and serious assessments. Third parties would be scolded for not taking this golden ticket Nintendo laid out for them by leaving such a huge market open for them to really get into the wealth of these new gamer's hearts and minds. New gamers introduced into gaming, but so heavily vilified by the old gamer guard just because they don’t game the way we want them to. New gamers that could have been locked in if only the Wii were given quality support.

Journalists would be called out for not informing the consumers of the differences between the Wii and Wii U as they are so eager to do for the SonySoft systems. Yes Nintendo's marketing would also be snipped at, but really, the media and journalists job is to inform as well. I am not saying they should do Nintendo’s advertising job for them, but they should inform the uninformed consumer

Instead, what do we have? Gloom and doom articles posted daily. Misinformation about the Wii U being a step up for Nintendo (instead journalists and dronalists like to compare the technical specs to the XBOne and PS4 rather than the system it’s actually replacing). A “game theory” on how the Wii U is the second Virtual Boy. Game devs out right lying about the Wii U’s potential. People speaking about the art of video games in terms of console/computer horse power! No one talking about how out of the big three, not only is Nintendo the only one that’s backwards compatible, but it is also the only one that is advertised with the player always playing. Not pausing to go do this, not switching from game to Star Trek movie, but gaming without the TV. How hardcore does that sound in comparison to the other two?

I am sorry if I come off as a little crazy, but I love video games. They are my passion. I loved every moment of watching games go form bit to bit, to SD to HD, and throughout my 20+ years of gaming, all I’ve wanted to do is pull more people into this gaming sphere because nothing else has brought me as much joy and I wish to share it. But the BS and butthurt shields have got to come down.

Edited on by ShadyKnights

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Zombie_Barioth

54. Posted:

@ShadyKnights
What you said about kids being told to do whats good for them amounts to tough love, thats what I was getting at. Nintendo called out 3rd parties for being useless while the Gamecube was barely out of the gate, not the best way to convince others to make games for your platform now is it? It was a broad generalization that easily included those that made some of the game games on their previous consoles.

The cartridge limitation has nothing to do with "making better games", if developers didn't have enough storage they couldn't make the games they want no matter how skilled they are. They also raised the manufacturing costs quite a bit, and so does having to use multiple disks for each game.

Like I said all these "parroting sheep" aren't all parroting sheep. I never said mass-appeal is a bad thing, I said having too MANY mass-appeal games is. Thats one of the problems the Wii had, and thats one of the reasons fans felt "abandoned". For every Wii Sports or Mario Kart there should have been a Metroid or or Sin and Punishment. Those games don't need to be alienate less skilled players or first-timers, but they shouldn't be outnumbered like they were either.

I also didn't miss-use the word criticism, you applied the wrong meaning to it, "to express disapproval of (someone or something) : to talk about the problems or faults of (someone or something)". That is likely what most people who "misuse" it are implying. Do you have a source on Sony only allowing sharing for 1st-party content, or is that just a hunch? Not taking a jab here, I'm actually curious since there hasn't been any actual evidence for anyone to go on besides business sense.

Your actually right about the bias, though mainly on the so called "journalist" side. 3rd-parties are exactly obligated to stick their neck out for Nintendo, and since the Wii U is subject to the same potential development costs they very well could be. Theres a lack of faith in Nintendo though thats for sure, whether its due to the past, the Wii, or something else only they know for certain. For journalists its mostly easy click-bait, remember that Microsoft blamed them for the DRM fiasco too. Its not just a Nintendo thing though, reviewers can't even give games less than stellar reviews if the company a sponsor or whatnot.

Zombie_Barioth

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brooks83

55. Posted:

@ShadyKnights - Maybe we should ask Sega and Hudson how Nintendo's treatment of third parties back in the NES days was... You know, that whole "you can't put your games on competing consoles" bit that basically killed the Master System and TG-16. But hey, as long as Nintendo was making that money and saving the game industry, it's all good right?

And for the record, I'm a huge Nintendo fan, but a bad policy is a bad policy.

Edited on by brooks83

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DualWielding

56. Posted:

@ShadyKnights I'm glad you feel respected by Nintendo..... I don't feel respected at all with their anti consumer policies like region lock and tying games to console..... and the new country lock they introduced in the 3ds felt like a big screw you directed at fans who had respectfully campaigned for lifting the region lock.... the country lock does not benefit Nintendo at all but they seem like they wanted to get back at fans for complaining about region lock......and they try to pass it as a feature which was very insulting to the fans intelligence.....

@brooks83 exactly whether they save the industry or not Nintendo's policy where Illegal and unfair to their competitors...... you know how fanboys accuse Sony and Microsoft for doing shady deals to keep games out of Nintendo's platforms (something that makes no sense and doesn't happen) Nintendo did actually shady things to keep games out of Sega's and TG-16 platforms....

DualWielding

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ShadyKnights

57. Posted:

@Zombie_Barioth
Well I googled criticize as well and the second definition, right under what you quoted states that it is also to “form and express a sophisticated judgment of (a literary or artistic work)”. To point out the flaws is indeed one point, but as I said you have to contextualize these flaws in a responsible and intelligent manner. Failure to do so is just mindlessly complaining which is the opposite of helpful for the consumer of the industry if taken into excess.

For example, @Brooks83 and @ferthepoet seem to be under the opinion that I am white knighting for Nintendo when I am merely answering the forum question. Concern for what Nintendo’s tactics did to a company who could not compete with their working business model is admirable, but ultimately pointless. It sucks, but to take that personally when we, the consumer, benefited from that is… well.. childish. Logically speaking, if Nintendo saved the industry then the companies that died due to their tactics were going to die regardless, rendering the “harshness” point people love to bring up mute.

When the average consumer doesn’t know about or even really care about region locking, for Nintendo to have differing opinions is fine so long as they produce the games the whole wants. Some moral high ground assumed just because it allows the consumer more access to more games is fine in theory, but if the percentage of people who would even take advantage of this is at best, a vocal minority, then as a company, it makes no sense to bother one way or the other with it. It’s easy to say how easy or simple something could be, but opinions should be stated as such and not as facts.

To argue the facts based on how a consumer should be treated as a company executive, when the ins and outs of a business is blind to you is silly and again proves my point. The whole of what I said in my posts is that the reason Nintendo is disrespected s because the consumer has assumed that they are smarter than the company. Armed with knowledge and not the context of that knowledge, the consumer waves the flag of righteous indignity when 9 times out of 10 they have completely misunderstood the finer details of things.

I am in no way saying I know what’s best or that I know what happened in every facet. But I am saying that I am willing to step back and do my best to view Nintendo’s actions objectively as I do with SonySoft and the rest of the industry. Nintendo’s actions in the past can’t be objectively horrible if everyone benefited from it. Aspects of it can be bad, but the whole? No. That’s like saying we should stop Chemotherapy because the radiation hurts the body for a time. Removal of the cancer is the goal and while it is a painful process, if the goal is achieved, shouldn’t you be happy?

Again, this forum question is about the disrespect of Nintendo from various outlets and within NintendoLife itself.

Oh about that Sony backtracking that I spoke of http://consumerist.com/2013/06/11/as-expected-sony-backtracks... Here ya go. You can skip to about 3:30 into the vid to hear the reversal. I heard about it literally the day after the big E3 announcement.

Edited on by ShadyKnights

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DualWielding

58. Posted:

@ShadyKnights you are not seeing things objectively you are fanboying, Nintendo's action during the NES era were illegal..... courts ruled them anti-competitive behavior and that's a fact.... and I guess you are American, that's why you don't care about region lock......Nintendo's anti consumer policies: Region Lock, Tying games to consoles, Country Lock of digital games in the 3DS, and prohibiting eshop cards from being sold digitally, work in tandem to make gaming on Nintendo really hard for people outside major markets people in Eastern Europe, Latin America, Africa and Asia... that's what I find disrespectful its kinda like Nintendo is being racist and saying we don't want you as a customer if you are not American, Western European or Japanese

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skulkap

59. Posted:

shadyknights great post your so right.

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Vincent294

60. Posted:

Geonjaha wrote:

Artwark wrote:

I don't know if a lot of people (including members from Nintendolife) are respecting whatever Nintendo tries to do.

I don't know if you phrased that as you wanted to, but it comes across like you expect everyone here to agree with whatever decision Nintendo makes. Unbiased intelligent consumers never just agree to something 'because it's Nintendo'. I've played Nintendo games since I was young, and for the first couple of years of my life they're the only gaming company I knew, but that doesn't mean that I don't criticise them when they make a mistake. Nintendo have made a lot of mistakes recently, and as such they get called out on it.

If however that's not what you meant; the opposite is also true. There are people out there who will hate Nintendo and what they do simply because their games aren't for them or because they never bother to try them. All that really matters in the end is what you think about them, and what decisions you make as a consumer based on that.

Yep.

Vincent294

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