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Topic: The PlayStation 4 fan thread.

Posts 5,701 to 5,720 of 7,860

YummyHappyPills

@NEStalgia I did just at that yes.

Mario 64 has myriads of problems mostly down to age. I still appreciate the revolution but that's not why I review something. I review what it is, and what it is, is aged. Terribly. With some inconsistent design for good measure.

3D Zelda? Slow. SHallow. Kinda dull. Never found it fun.

Switch FC: SW-5242-2997-2115

Peek-a-boo

@Ralizah Out of curiosity, given that you often appear quite open minded about games from the Far East, what was it about Bloodborne that got you burned? I also wonder if you had previously played Dark (or Demon's) Souls, or if you had known what kind of game it was before you dived in, head first?

Just surprised to see you so down about it!

Peek-a-boo

Dezzy

@NEStalgia

When exactly was there an isometric Zelda?

Converted from Sony to Nintendo during 7th gen and never looked back.

NEStalgia

@BLP_Software Oh the perspective on Mario 64 NOW, yes, I agree it's aged badly. Not when viewed from the perspective of its own time of course. But I don't disagree now.

3D Zelda? How is 3D zelda any slower/shallower/duller than 2D zelda?

@Dezzy, ugh, I still call it isometric, I guess it's really top-down though ALBW is technically isometric. Or at least quasi-isometric with the 3D on.

NEStalgia

Ralizah

@Peek-a-boo I've played Dark Souls 1 before. Never finished it, but I got at least as far as Blighttown. Not my sort of game, but I appreciate it for what it is.

As for why I'm down on Bloodborne... let's see: the frame-pacing issues were a bit of an annoyance for me. The environments (with the possible exception of the Nightmare Frontier) felt bland and samey. The gameplay feels like it was simplified from what was originally available in Dark Souls and forces the player into one playstyle (hyper-aggressive, because the game as designed to be played that way). The game lacked most of the awe-inspiring encounters I experienced in Dark Souls, and visually, it doesn't look a whole lot better to boot (or maybe it does, but the game is so murky that I couldn't tell).

It also has the same basic problem I had with Dark Souls: outside of having some strange, practically unintelligible exchanges with a small smattering of NPCs, it felt like there was nothing TO the game outside of the combat. The combat system itself is pretty decent, but less technical and challenging than something like Bayonetta. The mechanic where you can recover health by attacking aggressively is interesting, I guess, but not a lot is done with it.

I don't think it's a bad game, but I'll never understand the love people have for it. I'll try it again one day, if only because I purchased it digitally and am thus stuck with it.

@NEStalgia I love horror, and I can tolerate zombies, even if they're over-saturated in Western media at this point (the core concept of your loved one becoming a mindless, shambling corpse monster who wants to eat you after he or she dies is still wonderfully bleak and nihilistic at its core), but TLOU was a joyless slog for me. Clunky combat. Boring characters that I didn't care about. Tons of forced walking and talking. Boring plank-carrying segments. No real build-up of tension or paranoia, so it even fails as horror for me. Too many segments where you creep around killing mooks. The game was generic post-apocalyptic faff, in my opinion.

An yeah, outside of some confusing CG teasers, I don't even know what to think about Death Stranding.

Edited on by Ralizah

Switch FC: SW-2726-5961-1794

YummyHappyPills

@NEStalgia How long does it take to go from A to B in a 2D Zelda compared to 3D? Take Ocarina of Time. You do a lot of the same structure as ALTTP, but it takes longer simply due to an extra dimension.

And I don't know what made me find it boring. Combat? Going around large dungeons? Being in the UK so it runs at 12FPS?

Switch FC: SW-5242-2997-2115

NEStalgia

@BLP_Software LOL...ahh good old PAL.

I think taking a long time to get places was kind of the point though. In 2D Zelda it's about accomplishing your checklist of objectives you've given yourself, and just moving the little bits around until it happens. 3D zelda is supposed to be more like "traveling on an adventure in a medieval world" (which is what the originals were supposed to be simulating as well), not efficiently moving bits to achieve goalposts

I won't disagree that Ocarina has aged badly like Mario 64, but as a concept I think 3D Zelda is an extension of the ideas the first was supposed to make you imagine. Though I still love the 2D gameplay loop as well for its own merits.

though it seems like 3D Zelda is kind of the formula of 90% of games these days

NEStalgia

Dezzy

NEStalgia wrote:

@Dezzy, ugh, I still call it isometric, I guess it's really top-down though ALBW is technically isometric. Or at least quasi-isometric with the 3D on.

That's not what isometric means. Isometric means the X-Z axis are presented 30 degrees from the horizontal. See: Untitled
Something like Disgaea or Age of Empires is isometric.
You're probably confusing the 2 because they're both top-down camera views.

Edited on by Dezzy

Converted from Sony to Nintendo during 7th gen and never looked back.

Operative2-0

@BLP_Software What I don't think people realize is that Yooka Laylee was created specifically for the fans of Banjo. Not necessarily every collectathon fan ever. Banjo has a specific, unique charm that I suppose led to it having more of a cult following rather than mass appeal. Which explains why so many people unfamiliar with the games, or who weren't particularly fond of Banjo in the past anyways, find YK to be disappointing.

That said, yeah it needs to improve on a list of things. Music could have been much better from Kirkhope. It was a disappointing show from him, but Wise's tracks were good at least. And I think people were expecting worlds to be more like the original game, where you can go in and 100% without needing to figure out when you need to backtrack like in the sequel, Tooie. After so many years, its clear they're rusty with designing platformers, but after all that, I think its exactly what was promised. We said we wanted a game like Banjo and we got it. With all the annoyances like grating voices. However things like sequence breaking really need to be addressed. I haven't done it, but seeing as you and many others have been able to, they need to fix it in any future patches or sequels

Edited on by Operative2-0

Operative2-0

YummyHappyPills

@Operative2-0 I realise that and I understand that, and I was very willing to give Yooka-Laylee a shot to experience those Banjo style games at a price that wouldn't kill me (Getting carts or an Xbox One!).

But, I don't look at a product based on what the hype is. I look at the product. What I paid for. Is what I paid for a good game for me? Not really no. I think it looks great though.

The sequence breaking is horrifically frequent. See, I know how things in Unity work. I can look at an object and tell you where the colliders are, and as such, when I realised how they had done all the objects, I figured, okay, let's see if the put empty game objects to act as invisible walls.

No, they didn't. And it would've taken no time at all. Slap an empty game object down. Size the collider to suit where you don't want a player going, and it's a solid object.

But no. They didn't. Worse, the game uses mesh colliders. Ever wonder why leaves on bushes are solid to their shape? Mesh collider. Its not a hitbox around the object, it's how Unity makes a hitbox to the geometry. I caught on fast and as it turns out, EVERYTHING has this kind of collision. Which means if it has a lip to a ledge, or the middle of a bush or pile of leaves, it's solid.

Switch FC: SW-5242-2997-2115

Peek-a-boo

@Ralizah Firstly, I think you are one of the few to openly explain why they didn't have the greatest of times with Bloodborne (or any game for that matter), which is always nice to see. And secondly, I actually agree with your gameplay-style complaint, in that you have to be aggressive to stand a chance.

Coming from the slow and methodical gameplay in Demon's and Dark Souls, I actually disliked the game at first, so much so, I didn't return to it after a couple of weeks.

Then something clicked.

I met Father Gascoigne, and found out about his story with the little girl you talk to by the dimly-lit window. It really affected me, actually, because it was a tiny (and missable) detail in a very large and sprawling 'world'. A father and a husband becomes a beast when he was looking for his wife on the night of the hunt.

For me, committing to and accepting such a drastic gameplay change from Demon's and Dark Souls was the only way I got past that previous hurdle and played the game with a newfound mentality. I didn't play a single other game for nearly three months (I took so long to complete Bloodborne, simply because I barely had any spare time to play it).

Unlike Dark Souls, I felt that the second half of Bloodborne was better than the first. And there are at least two big optional extra areas - Cainhurst Castle (plays like a new 3D Castlevania) and the Upper Cathedral Ward - that you would have a surprisingly difficult time of naturally stumbling upon.

And the bosses! I liked them early on (Father Gascoigne, Vicar Amelia and the Blood-Starved Beast), but some of them that comes along later in the game are arguably some of the best in the entire Souls series.

Anyway, I am beginning to ramble and I am aware that what I have wrote probably won't change your mind however, I was once in a similar-ish position as you; disliked it immediately, dropped the game for a couple of weeks, returned out of curiosity then... well, it gradually ended up being my Game of the Generation.

"May you find your worth in the waking world."

Edited on by Peek-a-boo

Peek-a-boo

Ralizah

@Peek-a-boo I have a love/hate relationship with the hands-off, organic storytelling in these games. On one hand, it's nice that the story isn't really pushed on you, and that you learn more if you poke around, which is the way things would actually work. On the other hand, the game doesn't really give me hints about what I'm missing, which means I just don't see a lot of it. I like the way BotW handled it, where you know there are locations you need to find to get the story, but it isn't forced on you. I don't want the game to lead me by the hand, but I also don't want to have to poke around every inch of every environment just to make sure I'm not missing some detail of the story.

Another problem I have with Souls games in general, but Bloodborne more specifically, is the lack of any kind of in-game reference for where I'm going. I don't want flashing arrows or anything, but even a rudimentary map of some sort would be nice. This isn't a "flaw" in these games (it's a design choice), but my sense of direction in general is awful, for some reason. And it's easy for me to get lost even in areas I know pretty well. As such, the open, kind of non-linear design of these games bugs me, as I get lost easily, and I can only stumble around with no idea where I'm going for so long before I get frustrated. The reason I mention Bloodborne is particularly aggravating in this regard is because, unlike Dark Souls, which at least has some pretty distinctive looking areas, everything looks pretty much the same to me. 70% of the game seems to be gothic Victorian neighborhoods or spooky wooded areas, so I often have no idea where I am in relation to the rest of the map.

While I'm griping about Souls, let me mention one last small thing: the lack of a pause button. Now, I get it: not a flaw, but a design choice, and it makes sense when online features are integrated seamlessly into the game world, but all the same, it makes me avoid the game more often than not. This might not be an issue for people who live alone, but if you're part of a family, and if distractions are just a part of life, it can be really aggravating to play something that won't let you stop the action for a moment. Very inconvenient. I've tried pushing the home button as a substitute for a pause button, but I'm still unsure if that actually stops what's going on in the game.

The comparison to Castlevania is interesting! It certainly feels more like a proper 3D Castlevania than that last one we got, which was a sort of GoW knockoff. Maybe I'd take more to the hyper-aggressive feel of the game if I went in expecting something more like that.

If we're talking bosses... I'll admit there were a few cool ones. While the first boss fight is pretty rudimentary, I really like how it starts. You're just walking along a bridge, and some gargantuan monster just leaps down onto the bridge in front of you and starts lumbering forward, followed by ominous choir music. It's pretty unsettling the first time you see it, and the transition from world exploration to boss fight was pretty brilliant.

In terms of the actual boss designs, my favorites would have to be Darkbeast Paarl and Amygdala. Paarl because its lightning attacks were hard to learn, making it super-satisfying to beat (plus, look at the thing! It's hideous!) And Amygdala just felt different from any of the other bosses I encountered: loved his spider-like design, in particular. He was one particularly tough nut to crack.

Most of the other bosses I fought just kind of became indistinguishable from eachother, though. Dozens of fleshy, tendriled Lovecraftian monstrosities.

Edited on by Ralizah

Switch FC: SW-2726-5961-1794

Peek-a-boo

@Ralizah Some interesting points you have raised there!

As I was saying before, the reason why Bloodborne took so long for me to complete is not just the lack of spare time (and slap bang in the middle of my final year of teacher training too), but because of the 'design choice committee' of not implementing a pause button, as well as the nature of the game being (too) difficult to drop when you are needed elsewhere.

At least the offline mode allows you to hide somewhere safe-ish, save/quit to the title screen and come back to it another day. And yes, the open design of certain levels, especially Forbidden Woods (and those horrible snakes-like enemies) even makes a person with a great sense of direction like me end up running around in circles, which I can only imagine is much worse for you.

I believe that the murky atmosphere is a design choice thing, mostly because it is a separate visual layer rather than a basic foggy effect. That too can make things have a sense of familiarity in terms of the environments, except from the changing of the (pale or blood) moon, which affects the time - and tone - of the day.

I had to resort to a guide for one thing in particular, but even then, it was mostly because I did not have the luxury of walking around and finding out for myself, and preferred to simply 'get on with things' at the time.

It's perfectly fine if you have little desire to return. If you got as far as defeating Amygdala, then I think it's safe to say that you gave the game a fair old try! Most folks seem to give up somewhere along the narrow cobblestone street that leads up to the bonfire, or when they meet those two werewolves on the bridge...

I'm actually sitting on an (old) NG+ save point in which the nearest boss is this:

Untitled

Edited on by Peek-a-boo

Peek-a-boo

Grumblevolcano

I don't know whether it's already done but wouldn't it be interesting if the Souls games introduced the BotW blood moon concept.

Grumblevolcano

Switch Friend Code: SW-2595-6790-2897 | 3DS Friend Code: 3926-6300-7087 | Nintendo Network ID: GrumbleVolcano

Dezzy

@Peek-a-boo

I found that same inverse in quality between Bloodborne and Dark Souls.
Dark Souls 1 is brilliant for the first 10 hours or so and then declines after that. Bloodborne was fairly dull for the first 10 hours and then gets better after that. Cainhurst and Nightmare of Mensis I thought were both excellent.

Dark Souls 3 was quite even in quality throughout.

@Grumblevolcano

What would that mean though? The enemies already regenerate.

Edited on by Dezzy

Converted from Sony to Nintendo during 7th gen and never looked back.

Ralizah

@Peek-a-boo Oh yeah, I'm sure the murkiness is intentional. I just wish murkiness hadn't been married to big, open-ended environments that are hard to navigate and differentiate.

I do want to replay it one day, as there are aspects of it I enjoyed (especially the way the initially frustrating combat 'clicks' with a player after a few hours of frustration and the game becomes a hundred times easier). I'm just going to do a few things to make my experience more pleasant. Primarily, I'm going to print out a map so that I have some idea of how the various areas connect. I'll also look up how to access some of the game's hidden areas, NPCs, etc. so that I get a fuller experience of the game (I got pretty far, but I know there's a lot I've yet to see).

I'll treat it like The Legend of Zelda. For reference, I'd never enjoyed trying to play the game on my own with no help, as I found its world confusing, exploration was repetitive, and enemy encounters were brutally difficult. I finally resolved to just enjoy the game one day, so I printed out a map, consulted a guide for the order in which I should visit the dungeons and, I'll confess, I had a much, much nicer time with the game.

Edited on by Ralizah

Switch FC: SW-2726-5961-1794

Peek-a-boo

@Dezzy Again, we have slightly different views on the Souls series; I wholeheartedly agree with you in regards to Bloodborne having a slow start, followed by a consistently brilliant second half whilst Dark Souls gradually declined in quality after fighting - and eventually defeating - Ornstein & Smough in Anor Londo.

Dark Souls III was a mixed bag for me; I would argue that the game doesn't truly shine until you reach Irithyll of the Boreal Valley where the likes of Lothric Castle, Grand Archives and Archdragon Peak follows, which are all superb locations with an interesting level design.

I didn't mind High Wall of Lothric and Undead Settlement as the starting areas however, the places that followed the latter two made me go through a 'slog phase' whereby I wasn't all that bothered to play the game. The Road of Sacrifices, Cathedral of the Deep, Farron Keep, Catatombs of Carthus and the Smouldering Lake were all hard work in terms of mustering up the enthusiasm (to get through) for me.

After five areas in a row that I didn't particularly enjoy, especially Farron Keep and Catatombs of Carthus (urgh...) it was a genuine relief when I defeated High Lord Wolnir and walked up the steep stone staircase to see that bright white moon and a castle that's bathed under a twilight sky.

Probably my favourite moment in the whole game, that was.

Untitled

@Ralizah Oh, I don't see why not! I have used a map for some games in the past, and they actually make the experience somewhat more enjoyable.

If it's any help, this is a particularly useful guide as it tell you everything there is to know about all the areas, and it doesn't spoil things in advance either. The colour-coded map below shows Yharnam and beyond:

A spoiler free Bloodborne walkthrough.

Untitled

A detailed study of Bloodborne progression maps.

I hope they may be of some help!

Peek-a-boo

Ralizah

@Peek-a-boo Thanks for the resources! I almost never rely on external help for most games, but once I get to the point where I'm struggling to enjoy something, I'll do whatever I need to do to get the most out of it. Not sure I'll ever get all the trophies, but the least I can do is revisit it sometime and see it to the end.

Edited on by Ralizah

Switch FC: SW-2726-5961-1794

WebHead

So sony(or whoever is helping make it.) reuploaded the sly cooper movie trailer recently. I would love a new Sly game, or even just the PS2 trilogy on PS4.

Edited on by WebHead

WebHead

3DS Friend Code: 4296-3217-6922 | Nintendo Network ID: JTPrime

Dezzy

@Peek-a-boo

I like Lothric Castle the best. They are brilliant at designing castles. It reminds me of Mont Saint Michel:

Untitled

Converted from Sony to Nintendo during 7th gen and never looked back.

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