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Topic: Will the Switch just become an indie retro gaming machine?

Posts 21 to 40 of 40

mahmoodinho98

NEStalgia wrote:

@mahmoodinho98 Always great to hear from the inside. And that's the theme that's been repeated a lot by studios big and small. I know the Rime developers were going on about difficulties with the limited RAM, which I found interesting since that's the only studio we've heard that from, and it's by far not the most impressive game coming to Switch.

Bethesda was playing coy in the interview, tempering their Switch excitement with "well I don't think Nintendo has the sweet spot between console and handheld yet", but then, Bethesda's never been known for well optimized (or well tested) software

well ram isn't such a big problem , you can always compress textures and with the amount of ram we have on the switch I don't think we need to compress much if not at all , we have similar or nearly similar ram capacity for development as the rest of the consoles and the fact that we only have to hit 720p makes life alot more easier and reduces ram constraints by alot , up to know am really happy about switch and it's coding and the fact that it's alot more easier and accessible to code for reduced my companies costs by alot , but what makes the switch so great for me as a logic programmer along with the lads at the level design is the incredible support that we are getting from nvidia , it's just so wonderful to be able to use all their delicious API ( ๐Ÿ˜‚๐Ÿ˜‚๐Ÿ˜‚๐Ÿ˜‚๐Ÿ˜‚๐Ÿ˜‚) plus the fact that it's the same architecture that we have on our nvidia PC workstation makes the job so much easier .

mahmoodinho98

Ryu_Niiyama

I think that the Switch has solid potential to become the "all around machine". It won't be the best, but if it functions as essentially a portable gamecube in terms of relative power and library I think we will be fine. Honestly I think that is selling the system short to even assume that output. The system is comfortable, versatile and while not the most powerful it is powerful enough to run current gen (now past? since Switch starts a new gen) games. The key is Nintendo staying in everyone's faces about it. That is how sony and ms survived their missteps and that is where Nintendo failed with WiiU. Keep kicking marketing in the pants and keep offering open arms to 3rd parties (which we have heard that Nintendo has really tried to do with Switch) and we should get a pretty broad range of games.

@NEStalgia Tell that to my landlord, plus I am trying to get my garden up and running. I live in the desert now. Link has fertile fields rife with birds and mushrooms and what not.

I'll just leave this here. Untitled

Edited on by Ryu_Niiyama

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NEStalgia

@Ryu_Niiyama That definitely sells it short. It's capable of way more than a Gamecube could dream of, and I think the library will reflect that overall. Ironically maybe with less AAAs and more "stuff" overall.

I'm hoping a lot of people view it the way I do that it's just the most convenient platform to play just about anything on. I have my PS4...not really interested in what Scorpio and Pro are doing. There are some games over there I definitely have an interest in....yet can't get myself to pay much attention because playing on Switch is just so much more convenient and pleasant. I already bought both the gray and opposing color joycons so I can now have a 2-tone, gray, red, or blue console. I NEVER do that And at that price it's insane. But it's too fun not to. The PS4, though more powerful and with prettier graphics feels antiquated now.

Yep, we're in 9th gen now! Which is weird and the internet will never acknowledge it, but it's true!

Well if it's a desert then it will DEFINITELY weed itself. Back to mushrooms you go.... Half jealous of the desert thing though....might not feel the same in July though.

And that picture is hilarious and oh so true. I stopped playing Skyrim I think after in about 10 hours I fell through the floor in town, couldn't get back into the world, and had to load an old save. And that one fell through the floor, and I had no way to really remedy that at that point without rolling back forever or starting again! And I already have it on preorder again....

NEStalgia

fihsu

Agree.. I did not grow up on Nintendo, so I don't have the attachment to much of the Nintendo IP. Fortunately I think with Switch development supporting Unity and Unreal Engine helps a lot since I assume it greatly reduces the amount of effort to port compared to Wii/Wii U. I'm looking forward to games like Escapists 2, Terraria, and I would really also like to see some isometric RPG/adventure/strategy third party (indie or otherwise) games rather than just top down and side view.

fihsu

Honelith

Nintendo Switch seems to have a good mix of retro, indie and full fledged titles. I love the fact Stardew Valley, Binding of Isaac Afterbirth +, Portal Knights, Mutant Mudds, 1001 Spikes, Escapists 2, Overcooked etc are coming which are great fillers between the bigger releases that we know are in development aswell as more announcements of future game development.

Honelith

Switch Friend Code: SW-0658-7331-4900

Captain_Toad

I'd say it's more of an indie developer thing than a Nintendo thing as indies don't always have the luxury of using 3d or hand drawn/make a game that isn't a 2d platformer without something major to stand out.

Was Mariobro4. No, I'm not taking off my backpack...it's important.

Switch Friend Code: SW-1530-1570-5053 | 3DS Friend Code: 3566-2311-3009 | Nintendo Network ID: Mariobro4

foobarbaz

It's too early to tell. It all depends on the market. We'll have to see if enough of the market really cares about its portability aspect. If not, then the Switch will just be a console for playing Mario/Zelda/Metroid, indie, and retro games.

Personally, I think the portability part of it is a huge selling point. I never would have said this in the past with the Wii U but I'd probably take a Switch version of a cross-platform title over a PS4 version even if that means giving up graphic fidelity.

Honestly, I don't really see much of a point for a PS4 or XB1 anymore. If there's a game a really want to see in the best graphics possible, I'm buying the PC version. If I want a console experience (e.g. flop down on the couch to play kind of thing), I'm buying a Switch version so I can play it all throughout my house and not just at the TV the console is hooked up to. I hope I'm not in the minority.

Edited on by foobarbaz

foobarbaz

NaviAndMii

I personally believe that indies are really important for a number of reasons...

1) Truly original content: Rocket League, Journey and Telltale's: Walking Dead are amongst my favourite games on the PS4...they don't push the console to even close to its limits, but they felt like such fresh and new experiences that it really didn't matter.

2) Nindies filling holes in the library: A lot of people want a new F Zero game - enter: Fast RMX. A lot of people want a new Advance Wars - enter: Wargroove. ..in fact, a lot of the games in the Nindie Showcase seem to fill gaps like this. There'll probably be a new Animal Crossing/Harvest Moon game at some point - in the mean time, here's Stardew Valley! Something for everyone

3) A continuous flow of quality content: Nintendo has the best IP of any developer, hands down - we can already see that they're staggering the releases of their big franchises every couple of months; first Zelda, then Mario Kart, then Splatoon, then Mario - in between releases, Nintendo will still have games to show off...Nindie games!

...I agree with @Masurao - I can live without most of the so-called 'AAA' games on PS4/Xbox. My PS4 has basically just been gathering dust for a few months now - don't get me wrong, I'm excited about (for example) Red Dead Redemption 2 - but there aren't many games of that calibre...and even fewer that feel like a genuinely fresh and exciting experience.

I think that between Nintendo, Nindies and, hopefully, some of the bigger licensed franchises (eg. FIFA, NBA, Lego, Star Wars etc) the Switch will have most bases covered - with a far broader library of games than my PS4 currently offers me...for example, I've never been able to find a decent casual couch co-op game on my PS4 - I've had my Switch for a week and it already has me covered, with many more to come this year alone!

At the end of the day, graphics don't make a good game - good gameplay makes a good game...I'd happily play an 8-bit style game if it was original and fun - the PS4, in my experience, is oversaturated with games that look great, but play kinda dull...

Edited on by NaviAndMii

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rallydefault

@Enoch72
Hey, man. I'm up there in years, too, and I kinda know what you mean. It's Indies in general that just keep going for this NES/SNES presentation over and over and over and, yea, I'm getting REALLY sick of it.

There are some notable exceptions, and people will be quick to point them out, but they are just that: notable exceptions. The majority are what you and I have described.

So I see what you're saying. If the Switch just overloads on Indies (which it seems like it will get a lot of them), maybe people will think of it as an Indie/nostalgia machine. Nintendo NEEDS to keep up the pace of their first-party modern offerings, and they need to do their best to get other AAA stuff on the system eventually.

rallydefault

Enoch72

@rallydefault

Agreed.
Like you say, there are notable exceptions (since my original post, I caved in and bought 'Shovel Knight - Treasure Trove'....and am finding it fiendishly difficult in a fun, just-one-more-go kinda way).

However, I'd certainly like to see some of the larger independent studios (perhaps unfair to still class them as "indies"?) really push the hardware - look at FAST RMX as an example.

To be fair though, it is early days and I'm sure the better (dare I say 'more polished'?) games will come

Edited on by Enoch72

Enoch72

StuTwo

I think that @NEStalgia has made some really good points about "indie" games. There are a few more observations that I'd add though (and one point that I'd disagree on)

The point I'd disagree on the idea that small "indie" teams only work on retro style games with pixellated sprite graphics while the 3D work from "indies" is coming from teams that aren't "real" indies. I think that the style of game and it's ambition is a reflection of the size of the development studio in some ways but the skill set and experience of the developers - along with how big their ability to self-fund for longer periods without a pay cheque - matter more.

To look at Yooka Laylee. Rare were a pretty big developer in the 90's but they operated in small teams. A handful (like 2-3) people would often prototype a game to a very advanced stage before the rest of the studio ever saw it and got involved to polish it up. In a way they operated much like a set of "indie" developers would today and they were making very big, technically impressive 3D games.

That setup is a big part of the reason why they struggled so much in the HD era but it also explains why Playtonic can make something like Yooka Laylee without a massive team behind them.

The difference between an "indie" - whatever the size - to the old system of developing for a publisher is that in self-publishing the developers are giving up on all the things that the publisher would normally do for them. Yes they'd handle marketing, PR, advertising and distribution but they would also typically hand out an advance on royalties.

It's the advance that would give the developers the time to work on a game and without any advance funding "indies" basically have to live without a wage from the moment they start working on a game until they've finished it. The bigger "indie" games like Shovel Knight, Yooka Laylee and Bloodstained have one thing in common - they used Kickstarter to give them enough capital for the developers to eat and pay their rent through a long development process.

Over the next few years I'd hope to see the likes of Yacht Club games and Playtonic move on to more graphically ambitious games bankrolled by the success of their initial games and the knowledge that they have a dedicated audience for their games. There are a lot of challenges ahead but the indie scene a few years from now might be speckled with quite a few more AA releases than we've seen from EA and Activision over the past decade.

This would be great for everyone (except the "big 3") but it would be especially good for the Switch. Fingers crossed.

StuTwo

Switch Friend Code: SW-6338-4534-2507

Jeronan

Ryu_Niiyama wrote:

The system has been out a week. Isn't it a little early for Nintendoomed?

Nothing to do with doom, but if you look at the currently announced line-up, then over 80-90% of the games are Indy games and from all of those over 95% are retro games.

So have to agree with the OP that currently it doesn't look too good. Epecially on the major 3rd party support front.

I hope Nintendo is going to surprise us in coming months and on E3, but I just don't hold my hopes up.
Especially since the Switch is quite underpowered to even the XBOne and regular PS4, so this is seriously going to affect how major 3rd parties are going to look at the Switch.
Not unless Nintendo manages to repeat the Wii success in sales, so major 3rd party studios are willing to take the risk and spend considerable resources in porting major titles to the Switch.
It can be done, but for 3rd parties the investment need to be justified.

Edited on by Jeronan

Jeronan

mav-i-am

Jeronan wrote:

I hope Nintendo is going to surprise us in coming months and on E3, but I just don't hold my hopes up.
Especially since the Switch is quite underpowered to even the XBOne and regular PS4, s

When you realise they still make most XB1 games for the 360 and the switch has more power than that I think you will realise you are making no sense.

Switch games list,

Legend of Zelda BotW, Human resource machine, NBA Playgrounds, Street Fighter 2, Super Bomberman R, Snipperclips, Overcooked, World of Goo.

Nintendo Network ID: mav-i-am | Twitter:

Jeronan

mav-i-am wrote:

Jeronan wrote:

I hope Nintendo is going to surprise us in coming months and on E3, but I just don't hold my hopes up.
Especially since the Switch is quite underpowered to even the XBOne and regular PS4, s

When you realise they still make most XB1 games for the 360 and the switch has more power than that I think you will realise you are making no sense.

Ehh what? Most major studios have already stopped support for PS3 and XBOX360 last year and more and more have given an official End of Support statement the last 6 months.

There are really not that many games coming out anymore for the X360 and PS3 and not suprising since these consoles are almost 10 years old now.

Edited on by Jeronan

Jeronan

NEStalgia

@NaviAndMii "Telltale's: Walking Dead " That's the kind of line that just makes my skin crawl these days with how people throw the word indies around. (Not pointing fingers, I'm the first to say Nintendo itself is fueling the poor use of words possibly worst of all. Then again, from the perspective of Nintendo, the most prolific publisher of all, EA and Activision are basically "indies" ) But Telltale's not an indie. They are a publisher!

@Masurao "indie bands" that are selling out stadiums aren't indie bands. They're corporate bands designed to imitate indie style. "Indie" in games has become a lose word bundling such different parts of the industry. A studio shopping a publisher is just a studio under the good old book publisher model. They are an "independent studio" yes, but that's not what the phrase of "indies" was really originally used for. There's an ocean of difference between the true self-publishing indies and the "everything done ourselves, our way" spirit that goes with that, and the independent studios seeking publishing. I'm probably fighting a losing battle in chanelling my inner ThanosRexx in chafing at misuse of words, but by the standard that "everyone from self published through those larger studios seeking a publisher is an indie" there's only about 10 companies, worldwide, including the 3 platform holders themselves that AREN'T indies, so at that point why even bother with the indie label at all? There's studios, and then the other 10. This all came about because of the "great calamity" (BotW phrasing seems so appropriate here) around '00-'07 where most normal independent studios were either destroyed or disappeared from radar and ONLY the other 10 were visible. So when they came back in pieces they seemed like "indies" to everyone who didn't remember them and their roles from before.

Agreed on AAA though. I've found most of the best games, save fro the Zelda and Mario series, are not AAA at all, or are at least not considered so by their publishers. A & AA seem to be the sweet spots. Xenoblade, everything from Atlus, the "B tier" titles from Squeenix and most Nintendo stuff all fit that camp. I'd play Gravity Rush on Playstation over half the AAA games on that platform any day. It's a solid A or AA. I'm convinced AAA games aren't really meant for gamers, they're meant for the portion of moviegoers/TV watchers they can sell some level of interactivity to.

@Jeronan No console has many retail games at launch. WiiU had way more coming out for it when XBone/PS4 released than either of those did. AAA companies test the waters with a game here or there until the platform matures with a large install base. Anybody who expects to have the exact same library as PS4/XBone is probably missing the whole point/market for this console. That isn't going to happen, and that's not a "see it's doomed" when it happens. The question is will it get any support from that library or not, but it's never going to be "A box to play EA/Activision games on" - there's already 2 other platforms that exist for that. Switch is a console for people who either don't want that, or what that AND a bunch of other things. There will be tons of big 3rd party. But not much of the EA/Ubi/Activision sort. More of the Capcom, Squeenix, Sega/Atlus variety.

@StuTwo Agreed in general, and I do think that in general the budget constraints of self publishing are going to be permanently limiting on graphics. Though I think 8/16 bit is less a budgetary thing and more a design issue of cashing in on the retro craze since it fits the budget and is popular, particularly after Yacht Club proved it can work well.

And I agree about self-publishing being the major defining factor of the indies versus not. Most of what everyone seems to call "indies" these days are published titles. One thing to keep in mind about the "bigger" ones (Yooka, Bloodstained, etc.) is these indeed have full publishers, and the games were not actually funded by Kickstarter. In both cases, the Kickstarter wasn't the actual advance (in Bloodstained's case, Iga kind of laughed off that idea stating that that the Kickstarter goal wasn't even close to the initial outlay they needed.) The Kickstarter was actually little more than a "proof of intent" for the publisher shopping process. The real backing publisher held the advance until the studio demonstrated enough interest through the kickstarter. Once the Kickstarter was completed, the real publisher took over and dumped the rest of the advance. There's a moral gray area in that process, less on the part of Iga/Playtonic, more on the part of their backing publishers.

Though I personally find Kickstarter in general a gray area. It was intended for physical inventions which is fine. For software publishing, it's basically asking your potential customers to fulfill the role of a publisher including a cash advance, including assuming the risk liability of the project, without any royalty/interest based reward. For "one man show" studios people accept the idea without much fuss, but then when it's revealed as a launch pad for real publishers to minimize their own risk....it gets a lot more questionable.

If this were the 90's or early 00's, those games, and to a lesser extend shovel knight wouldn't be magic "indie" games, they'd be boxed games at the local software store same as all the other boxed games. Heck, even Frozenbyte are getting in on boxed copies these days while Playtonic's publisher still can't give them that exposure on day 1 which is a little odd to say the least (no idea if Bloodstained will arrive in physical or not still.)

NEStalgia

NaviAndMii

@NEStalgia My bad there! ..from the style and presentation of the game, I just assumed - but you're quite right!

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twindragon

I like what companies like shinnen are doing and when reviews talk about some of the technical things they are doing to get the most out of the game it is really cool. I like the limits that the switch has actually it makes developers think outside of the box and do specialized things to make games look their best.
I want to see more of that with new indie game announcements. The current games look fun but I want to see some pushing of the harware. Sorta like what team Ico did on the ps2. Because the switch has the better ram and architecture and can use the advanced game engines it should be able to do some amazing things desipite its apparent weakness compared to other consoles.

twindragon

StuTwo

NEStalgia wrote:

And I agree about self-publishing being the major defining factor of the indies versus not. Most of what everyone seems to call "indies" these days are published titles. One thing to keep in mind about the "bigger" ones (Yooka, Bloodstained, etc.) is these indeed have full publishers, and the games were not actually funded by Kickstarter. In both cases, the Kickstarter wasn't the actual advance (in Bloodstained's case, Iga kind of laughed off that idea stating that that the Kickstarter goal wasn't even close to the initial outlay they needed.) The Kickstarter was actually little more than a "proof of intent" for the publisher shopping process.

Ah. I never realised that was the case.

They're sitting in a grey area between being true indies and conventionally published titles but probably being closer to conventionally published titles. Being published by someone who isn't Activision/EA/Ubisoft doesn't make a game "indie".

To come quickly back to the 8/16 bit style though - I do often wonder if it's partly because the simpler rules of 2d games make them easier to fit into the mobile space (which is, by necessity, where a lot of the small one or two man developers have to do most of their work and get most of their experience these days).

Though I personally find Kickstarter in general a gray area. It was intended for physical inventions which is fine. For software publishing, it's basically asking your potential customers to fulfill the role of a publisher including a cash advance, including assuming the risk liability of the project, without any royalty/interest based reward. For "one man show" studios people accept the idea without much fuss, but then when it's revealed as a launch pad for real publishers to minimize their own risk....it gets a lot more questionable.

I don't mind the moral question - I see it as a kind of enhanced pre-ordering process and I have no issue with consumers taking on some of the role of the publisher (even if it's only a minority stake and there's a bigger publisher in the background). In theory Kickstarter could have been revolutionary for the industry but I think it's probably run its course at this point - at least in its current format anyway.

StuTwo

Switch Friend Code: SW-6338-4534-2507

NEStalgia

@StuTwo Yeah, the whole industry's in this weird mess. In a lot of ways digital distribution rising at the same time as the demise of the publisher system probably makes things far more confusing than they would have been if only one had happened. In the case of Yooka and Bloodstained it's not even all that gray. They're plain old conventionally published titles (that happened to have had a kickstarter.) In the case of the former, physical will probably come on a delay (which is a shame) and for the latter we don't know much about physical beyond the Kickstarter backers. I can't imagine it won't happen though.

The fact that most of us tend to think "non-indie" and "third party" generally means "Activision/EA/Ubisoft/Capcom/Sega" tells us just how low the industry got at its lowest point. The part that's really funny about that is Activision/EA/Ubisoft aren't actually even publishers anymore! They're just monolithic consolidated super-studios. I think Harmonix was the last outside firm Activision published. EA hasn't published anyone in over a decade...they bought out almost everyone they used to publish and absorbed them into HQ. Ubisoft every now and again still publishes some minor game, but generally they've been out of the publishing game since the Wii era. So we use the wrong words for everything. We talk about "big third party publishers" who no longer actually publish anyone, and haven't for years, and are just mega-studios churning out mass-market games, we talking about "indies" who are the normal studios with publishers like they used to be 15 years ago, and we then throw in digital-self-published indies as the same thing

Sega and 2K are the only "big" ones that are actually still a genuine publisher! And THQ-Nordic, but by half the standards of indies, they're just an "indie publisher"

You're right about the 8/16-bit thing fitting mobile space well, and there's a lot of nostalgia in mobile from people that remember games as kids, but aren't going to invest in a gaming machine now....it's a fun throwback. Though I wonder in general how well that does. Mobile is brutal, and any small inidie will find it hard to be noticed. I think I&F (Steamworld) saw better returns on 3DS than they did any other platform (including Steam, ironically...) Other indies are probably coming around to the reality that they do better on dedicated systems too.

Kickstarter was never a very good fit for the software world. It was really designed for actual inventions...things that needed to be funded, manufactured, and distributed. And it did great for that! But it was such a poor fit for the nature of how software development works and the long term targets for that. For physical objects, the R&D was generally "done" the design was made, and it just needed money to make the manufacturing a reality. For games the money is needed up front to pay staff for years to make a product. The handful of notorious project collapses I think (fortunately) put that idea to rest. If publishers were creative they'd take on the "kickstarter" portion themselves as exactly what it is, an advanced preorder. Heck, isn't that what preorders were supposed to be from the start?

NEStalgia

24kevin

I see the switch becoming the best of everything, it will boast a large Indy library, probably attempting to get as many AAA titles as possible, have the classic Nintendo games and IPS and try to foster and esport/competitive community with their "practice anywhere machine".

24kevin

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