@ThanosReXXX
As I said, they may update the dock but it's not going to do as much as people seem to think it will. The idea that they could release a new dock that massively upgrades the spec is a fantasy. It'd be a lot of mucking around for something that would add an extra layer of complexity to the user experience. It was a dumb idea before the Switch launched when people thought that's what the dock did, it's still a dumb idea now.
I mean think about it rationally. If they're releasing a dock that performs better than the Switch itself. If they're selling you a dock that has a faster GPU, CPU, more RAM and so on. All the stuff you need to render games better than what the Switch can. How much more of those could you sell if you attached a screen and battery and made it the "Switch Pro"? How much better would the end-user experience be? How much easier would it be to develop for multiple SKUs rather than multiple variations of multiple SKUs with and without variations on the dock? If the dock has all that why do you even need the Switch?
And the best bit about a "Switch Pro"? It wouldn't cost that much more than an upgraded dock. So yeah, they're not going to do more. The dock will remain an I/O expansion device.
While I doubt that Nintendo will ever release a Switch without the dock (assuming that it costs next to nothing to manufacture, at least not to the extent that they can shave $50+ off the RRP), but I can see them releasing a Switch "Home Edition", for example, that operates as a home console only (and therefore cutting the expense of the 720p screen and having to manufacture the unit so compactly). Such a console could also, in theory, support external hard drives and cut the costs of micro SD storage (unless game performance will suffer as a result, in which case, the home edition may need to be limited to SD card storage by design). I imagine that it would be a lot cheaper to manufacture (perhaps even more so than the Wii U), but of course, Nintendo would understandably want to sell the Switch at its current price while momentum is still high (before introducing cheaper SKUs).
It would also make sense to give out "home editions" in lieu of the full Switch package to stores for demonstrative use (I'd be surprised if a screenless Switch doesn't already exist for this purpose).
"Gee, that's really persuasive. Do you have any actual points to make other than to essentially say 'me Tarzan, physical bad, digital good'?"
The only thing I'm resentful about is the fact that the New 2DS XL design is so much more appealing than the standard 3DS XL and New 3DS XL. I love the design, but I'm not willing to forfeit 3D for it.
"Gee, that's really persuasive. Do you have any actual points to make other than to essentially say 'me Tarzan, physical bad, digital good'?"
@skywake I never said it would have to do much, but it could be in the same area of the difference between a PS4 and a PS4 Pro, or maybe a bit more subtle like the difference between the Xbox One and the Xbox One S, but it is perfectly possible. I am in IT Sales & Marketing and have been for decades, and I'm telling you from a professional view, that this is entirely possible, hardware-wise.
Not saying it will happen, but that it could, and this simply by using and reasoning on from the idea of the SCD, lending both local power and power to other people online. It doesn't have to be much, but even a modest upgrade might be enough to provide for a better experience. And the reason why it wouldn't matter if either the dock or the Switch itself would be made more powerful is that the development would be pretty much the same, since they would either have to develop games for two different Switch models, or for two different docks, which is essentially two variations of the same, because in both cases, they would need to develop two versions of the game, or extra assets for a higher end version of the game.
And they could do that in pretty much the same way as developing for the Xbox One/PS4 and their more powerful siblings: simply add all the extra modes/assets to the game cartridge, which will allow for all models to run the games, and only the more powerful models will be able to run the games with all assets, such as extra effects, higher frame rate, better graphics, but the games must work on all models.
It's the same directive that developers are faced with on the other consoles, so I see no reason whatsoever that it could not be done on the Switch.
'The console wars are like boobs: Sony and Microsoft fight over which ones look the nicest and Nintendo's are the most fun to play with.'
@ThanosReXXX
I'm sorry but it's not at all the same as the other consoles. What you're talking about is an extra processor and memory that could be bolted onto the side of the Switch as it is now. One that would presumably not interrupt the way the Switch works when you move from portable to TV modes. This isn't like just having to deal with a different spec console. This would be a console that's changing clock speed dynamically and dynamically adding extra GPU cores (RAM? CPU?).
It should also be noted that the GPU docks that do exist on the market for some gaming laptops run on Thunderbolt. So we're talking 40Gbps or in other words 4x PCIe (litterally). From what I understand the Switch is using some kind of Display Port alt-mode for USB Type C. It seems as though it also only supports USB 3.0 which would be 5Gbps. If it's doing USB 3.1? Well that'd be a shock... but it'd still be well short of 4x PCIe. We're talking less than AGP....
You haven't convinced me at all here. I don't see any reason why they would want to put more power into a dock. If they do upgrade the spec of the Switch it'll be through them selling a new tablet. An upgraded tablet which would BTW also give you a spec boost when not docked. So I stand by what I said, the only thing I ever see a dock upgrade doing is adding improved I/O.
@skywake What I'm talking about is options, not about what will actually happen, so we're talking hypothetically. I'm quite convinced that the SCD's are still a thing on Nintendo's agenda, so we will see those arrive somewhere in the future in some shape or form, and they will be separate from the Switch itself, as aptly described in the patent. One of the very few "NX" related patents that was cleared for completion and paid for, so that should already tell you something...
And making the device itself more powerful would render the original dock more or less obsolete, so that would then have to be updated too. That makes my theory more likely, because the dock being upgraded would allow for it to do even more when connected to the TV, whereas a new Switch in an old dock would do hardly anything additional.
And as you will know quite well, there are lots of examples of external hardware additions like graphics and sound cards, or RAM modules, to make the original hardware more powerful, so nothing I've said earlier is out of the realm of possibilities.
And between you and me: I have no need or desire to convince others. I have more than enough experience and knowledge to know what I'm talking about, and I'm also realistic enough to know that it would be ridiculous to think that I can convince everyone, so there will always be different opinions, and that's fine by me. I won't even lose a nano-second of sleep over it...
'The console wars are like boobs: Sony and Microsoft fight over which ones look the nicest and Nintendo's are the most fun to play with.'
One of the very few "NX" related patents that was cleared for completion and paid for, so that should already tell you something...
Not really. Patents can be made for various reasons. For all we know this could appear well down the line in some future product. It might not appear at all. And if it does appear we might see it in a way that we don't necessarily expect. I wouldn't read too much into it.
And making the device itself more powerful would render the original dock more or less obsolete, so that would then have to be updated too. That makes my theory more likely, because the dock being upgraded would allow for it to do even more when connected to the TV, whereas a new Switch in an old dock would do hardly anything additional.
Last I checked Switch games were not all running at 1080p/60fps when docked with high quality AF/AA, shadow details, textures and so on. There's plenty more they can do with the Switch itself before the lack of 4K/60Hz on HDMI 1.4 of the current dock is holding the tablet back.
And as you will know quite well, there are lots of examples of external hardware additions like graphics and sound cards, or RAM modules, to make the original hardware more powerful, so nothing I've said earlier is out of the realm of possibilities.
GDDR5: 400Gbps (VRAM chip)
DDR4: 140Gbps (RAM module)
PCIe 3.0 16x: 128Gbps (typical GPU interface)
PCIe 3.0 4x: 40Gbps (M.2 and thunderbolt)
AGP 8x: 17Gbps (legacy GPU socket)
SATA 3.0: 6Gbps (typical HDD/SSD) USB 3.0: 5Gbps (bandwidth the Switch has spare over it's Type C port)
PCIe 2.0 1x: 5Gbps (other add-in card)
PCI: 4Gbps (legacy add-in card)
5Gbps < 40Gbps < 130Gbps
I'm sorry @ThanosReXXX, it's not the same thing. I can see them adding extra bits of I/O to the dock but you're not going to get extra processing power out of it. Nothing in the way you're talking about at least. They could add storage and a LAN adaptor, they could push out a higher spec HDMI over the AV link. But any extra horsepower? It's going to be clunky. That interface simply wasn't designed for that sort of thing.
The dock only works by giving two signals to the console. Is there a power supply connected and in use, and a HDMI to justify running at full power.
Thats why USB to HDMI doesnt work. The thing needs two signals. The dock, actually, wouldnt become obsolete on grounds of what it does, outside of future HDMI connections.
In terms if more RAM/Higher clocks to say push 1080/60 in BOTW? You could use yohr original dock. The console would be set with an undocked mode thats at x soeed, and when it receives those two signals from any dock, goes full pelt.
All logic and processing is on the console. Unless you needed a superior port for higher bandwidth, the basic dock would work fine.
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@BLP_Software
Yeah a new dock if/when it comes is most likely just going to upgrade the HDMI spec from 1.4 to 2.0. Maybe it'll also bundle in some USB devices like a LAN adaptor or something. But really, the only thing a new dock is likely to add is the ability to output a 4K signal at 60Hz rather than 30Hz and add HDR support.
A new tablet on the other hand could vastly improve the spec of the system. They could potentially release something that's 2-4x as powerful as the Switch in a couple of years. Which would mean games in portable mode could then run in portable mode as they do now when docked. And when docked they could run at a higher spec again. But not so high that HDMI 1.4 becomes "obsolete" for the spec. It'd need to push the spec up something more like 8x before we're talking 4K docked.
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"Don't stir the pot" is a nice way of saying "they're too dumb to reason with"
I'm not aware of the tech stuff as much as you guys are, but I do want to emphasize two points:
Technically a dock that increases power and graphics is possible and was hinted at in the patent BUT as @skywake@BLP_Software mentioned, it's a bit impractical. Also, not all patents actually pan out.
Nintendo is heavily emphasizing and marketing the portable aspect of Switch. It would therefore be better to improve the tablet itself so that the game plays same whether docked or undocked. If the dock was boosted, they'd be a potential scenario where some games need the extra power and can only be played while docked, defeating the whole point of Switch and something Nintendo wouldn't want. So I could see the tablet being upgraded as more likely than the dock being upgraded, but obviously we'll never know what will happen until it happens.
@shadow-wolf Both could be done and while upgrading the Switch itself might seem more practical, at some point it would still also need an upgraded dock, because the current connections can only push data to the TV so far, so depending on how much the Switch will be upgraded, the USB-C and/or HDMI will also need to be upgraded.
And I still stand by the possibility of the external upgrade in the form of the SCD's, in which case there could also be benefits when undocked and playing online, because that was also in the patent, so there wouldn't have to be any difference between local and on the go.
Those SCD's aren't necessarily for the Switch, or the current version of the Switch, but we could see them somewhere along the line, for the Switch Pro or whatever the heck they're gonna call it...
'The console wars are like boobs: Sony and Microsoft fight over which ones look the nicest and Nintendo's are the most fun to play with.'
but obviously we'll never know what will happen until it happens.
Nail on the head right there. It's what I would translate as "but we're still talking about Nintendo here, so you'll never know what they'll come up with next"...
And they almost never make sense, so maybe, just maybe, some people need to start taking that into account when theorizing...
'The console wars are like boobs: Sony and Microsoft fight over which ones look the nicest and Nintendo's are the most fun to play with.'
@ThanosReXXX
If you do the maths and follow Moore's law they should be able to match the XBOne spec in the Switch tablet by 2019. That's for the same cost and with the same specs as the Switch tablet otherwise. Same battery life, same construction quality, same thermals ect. PS4 would be 2020. All specs that can live within the "limitations" of the Switch dock as it is today with HDMI 1.4.
Beyond that spec? Sure, they'll need more than HDMI 1.4 to do 4K. By 2022 they'll be able to hit the PS4 Pro spec, Scorpio 2023. At this point the undocked Switch is more capable than the original PS4. And it's at that point HDMI 1.4 with its inability to do 4K at anything above 30Hz will be an issue when docked. So they release a HDMI 2.0 compatible dock with backwards compatibility for the original Switch. But that's 2022, 5 years from now. By that time they may be looking at another solution entirely. Hell, maybe they start selling HDMI 2.0 docks with HDR support before we even get to that point.
I don't think we will ever see a big song and dance made about an upgraded dock. Eventually some revision of the Switch will come with a new dock. That new dock will offer some of the extra features you can use with newer revisions of HDMI. That's probably it.
edit: @BigBadJohn
I was thinking about cloud gaming because of this thread and I think I worked out what the point of the Supplemental Computing Device @ThanosReXXX keeps going on is. See the thing about cloud computing for games is that it only really makes sense in some parts of the world. The east and west coasts of the US, western Europe and Japan. Everywhere else the population densities are too low and the distances are too great. If you live in Australia for example you're at least 50ms pings away from the other side of Australia, 150ms away from Japan and 300ms away from the US. Not great for games even if you have fibre at home.
That's where the SCD comes in. The whole point of it is that Nintendo are trying to figure out ways to get people to put a game streaming server in their house. They compensate you and otherwise give you incentives for having it chewing up power and bandwidth. The hope being that if these are scattered everywhere you will always be close to one that's idle. It's kinda like a Wii U except that you're using your neighbours console and the internet instead of WiFi.
But here's the thing. Based on the maths in the post above? If things progress as they have done since the 50s the value of this will be questionable. Your portable gaming device could be as capable as the PS4 Pro in 5 years. So if that's the future why would we want to send compressed streams of games over the internet? Why would reduced latency for a cloud gaming service be impressive if we can put all our games in our pockets? It's a different approach to the Switch's "play everywhere" but the Switch does it better.
If you remember from the 1900's, Nintendo made the Super Nintendo (SNES). Maybe they will do the same thing and make the Super Nintendo Switch. This would probably include games like Super Mario Odyssey 2 or Mario Rabbitz Kingdom Battle DX.
Put this way a NS 2.0HD would you all fork out $500 for this option? And it will have 4K portable and 4K HDTV. Now that would make staying power but also vaporizing power on you wallet as well. And it can upscale older NS games to 4K gameplay. Now that will force xbox, ps4 to put out or get out and this with a portable NS 4K console. Now that will be where the NS is and should shoot for.
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Topic: Where does Nintendo go after Switch?
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