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Topic: What should Nintendo do to make the NX succeed?

Posts 41 to 60 of 89

dumedum

@skywake - I disagree that it holds anything significant back. They were able to make Smash Bros on it with great online an unbelievable achievement. The console even early on was able to run RE Revelations beautifully. Capcom is having great success with Monster Hunter again and again bringing its titles to the 3DS selling great and attracting all the attention. Bravely Default succeeded both in Japan and the west spawning a sequel on the 3DS with might. RPGs can be made without any trouble at all. All these Lego games are made without any trouble - Western developers just like with the Wii U simply prefer to aim for kids mostly. Only indies that appear on Wii U anyway might be "held back" and even then you get shovel knight like games, renegade kid and other loyal developers. Hardly an issue even. Most of the top 20 best selling games in Japan are 3DS. Sorry but its not holding anything back. It flourishes and triumphs.

Edited on by dumedum

"Dubs Goes to Washington: The Video Game".

Nintendo Network ID: Del_Piero_Mamba

BlueSkies

@skywake
A magnetic disk is going to be faster than an optical drive no matter, and still a flash based memory is going to be even faster but at greater cost per card. My point remains that a MODERNIZED zip style drive will be cheaper than an optical drive/hdd combo (by up to 50% or possibly more considering that standards for hdd size keep going up and by the time Sony launches PS5 we may be talking about a 4TB hdd) and the medium will be cheaper than flash cards. Flash, optical, and magnetic memory are back to where they were in the late 90s where magnetic is superior to optical and cheaper (thus everything is being installed on the hdd this gen), and flash is the most expensive of all.

What Nintendo was doing with the N64DD is basically where the whole damn industry has come back around to with HDDs.

"Like it or not they're going to have some form of internal storage."

You can have a small amount of internal storage for the OS and profile information but having the games on magnetic disks or on solid state flash memory will eliminate the need for the 500GB HDD.

"You want to take away that one advantage they have over the competition from mobile?"

All of those buttons are a disadvantage. It's why the 3DS has reached only 50% of the DS market-- those consumers aren't console consumers and they want style over console functionality. It's not about creating a portable console experience, it's about creating the most portable device. It's about the device design and aesthetics. If Nintendo wants an advantage over current phones and tablet they have to make a better touch screen with better haptics.

BlueSkies

DefHalan

How does digital download games work without a type of internal storage device?

People keep saying the Xbox One doesn't have Backwards Compatibility.
I don't think they know what Backwards Compatibility means...

3DS Friend Code: 2621-2786-9784 | Nintendo Network ID: DefHalan

skywake

@dumedum
Not everyone is going to push as hard for a 3DS release as Nintendo does. We know that the port of Xenoblade which only works on the New 3DS was a hard task based on those developer interviews. We also know that they had to scale back the game in order to get it to work. And it is interesting that you always bring up RE:Revelations. It was an impressive game. However the sequel skipped the 3DS entirely.. but is coming to Vita. See a pattern here?

@BlueSkies
Well lets go through some of the things you've missed the boat on here just with this magnetic disk idea. You haven't factored in the cost of the drive that you'd need to read your magnetic disks. You haven't taken into account the fact that storage gets cheaper every year. You've ignored the fact that games are getting bigger slower than HDDs are getting bigger and plucked some PS5 numbers out of nowhere. You have guessed the $/GB from how the tech is used rather than actually looking it up yourself. Lots of things. Lets go into a few in more detail just for some fun.

From the top once more. The truth is that a lot of R&D has been put into optical media since the N64 DD. In the early 2000s when removable magnetic disks were still being revised they were being overtaken by DVDs in terms of speed and capacity already. A trend which likely would have continued if they had stubbornly held onto what by that point was a dead idea. I've said this multiple times, you don't seem to believe me. If you were right why do we still have games on optical media? Also HDD speed hasn't improved much at all in the last ten years and at this point a standard portable one is only about twice as fast as a slimline blu-ray drive. So how on earth can a removable magnetic disk, which has to be running slower than an internal HDD, be an improvement?

And the thing about flash for distribution is that it least it has some advantages. It's a LOT faster, require less power and it's less susceptible to motion. Which is why they still use cartridges for portable consoles and why I suspect they'll continue to do so even though the $/GB is higher. And as flash continues to improve at an insane rate the cost is going to continue to shrink at an insane rate. The rate at which flash based storage is getting cheaper? It won't be long before it's cheaper than magnetic storage entirely. We're talking a handful of years here. Although I do suspect that by the time that it makes sense to use "cartridges" for distribution of home console games again most people will be downloading games anyway. So they won't bother and will stick with optical media until physical distribution is dead.

So now, onto the cost of storage. Lets ignore entirely for a second the fact that it would be entirely impractical to have a bunch of spinning optical disks in a stack at the back of the console to download patches and games to. Lets assume this is just simple a matter of $/GB and somehow everything else works itself out. Just for a second. Now it's hard to measure the actual cost these companies pay in bulk but just for some context lets look up some retail prices. For HDDs at retail we're talking about 10c/GB for a standard portable internal HDD. Lets just assume that this is somehow magically the same as the $/GB of your proprietary and much lower capacity magnetic media. SSDs are currently at 46c, just under 50c/GB, they're at 2008 HDD prices now. They've gone from 2005 HDD prices to 2008 HDD prices in one year. Which is why I've repeatedly said it's an exciting space to watch. Optical media? Blu-Ray disks are about $1/each at retail for single layer 25GB.... 4c/GB. Imagine that, it appears that optical media is pretty damn cheap even with insane retail margins. Maybe this is the reason they're used for distributing games perhaps?
Untitled

What you're saying is that they should eliminate entirely a small cost to the manufacturing of consoles. A cost that allows them to patch games and sell games digitally. It even allows them to patch games when the game disk isn't in the system. Basically they'd inconvenience users even those who don't buy digitally and they'd spend more money on distribution. All for some alleged marginal improvement in speed that you are unable to even quantify. Great sell.

Lastly on your bit about making their portable gaming device not a device for playing games. Again. And again. As I've said repeatedly the only advantage they have over phones and tablets is that they're built for games. When you buy Mario Kart on the thing you're controlling the game with an analogue stick rather than being forced to use tilt. You can hold the power slide, icon and accelerate buttons all at once without needing three thumbs, obscuring the screen or having the control of one taken away from you. Pokemon, Mario Kart, Smash Bros, Mario, Zelda, Animal Crossing, Monster Hunter. Those are the best selling games on the 3DS. Removing physical controls from the system is going to make those games worse not better. I don't know about you but I'd personally want a new console to be better than its predecessor not worse.

edit: lots of edits, for grammar and double checking my numbers in this insane wall of text.

DefHalan wrote:

How does digital download games work without a type of internal storage device?

Untitled

Edited on by skywake

Some good Aussie musics: King Gizzard, Pond, TFS
"Don't stir the pot" is a nice way of saying "they're too dumb to reason with"

DefHalan

skywake wrote:

DefHalan wrote:

How does digital download games work without a type of internal storage device?

Untitled

Amazing

People keep saying the Xbox One doesn't have Backwards Compatibility.
I don't think they know what Backwards Compatibility means...

3DS Friend Code: 2621-2786-9784 | Nintendo Network ID: DefHalan

BlueSkies

DefHalan wrote:

How does digital download games work without a type of internal storage device?

You could use blank cards/disks depending on the medium.

@skywake
You don't have to agree that magnetic disks could be modernized-- you can simply go with the argument of what if Nintendo used flash cards for their games. The goal is the same-- to cut out the optical drive and HDD. That's the whole point, no matter which tech you think is better. You're acting like a slot port for either new medium (flash or magnetic) would cost more when it would cost less. The whole point of the N64DD was it was the middle road-- it was a cheaper drive than an optical drive, it was faster, it was rewritable, and the medium was in between carts and CDs in cost. A port for a flash based memory card would for certain be waaay cheaper (use less power and create less heat).

The paradigm of optical disks results in weaker hardware. The optical disk design does not put the rendering of games first as the priority; it puts the maximum profit first.

Games should be sold as finished products or they shouldn't be sold.

Edited on by BlueSkies

BlueSkies

skywake

BlueSkies wrote:

You don't have to agree that magnetic disks could be modernized-- you can simply go with the argument of what if Nintendo used flash cards for their games. The goal is the same-- to cut out the optical drive and HDD. That's the whole point, no matter which tech you think is better.

That's not what I'm saying. As I've said repeatedly the cost of the components to read disks and the cost of some internal storage is small. Storage in 2015 is cheaper than it has ever been and is getting cheaper by the day. This isn't the big issue you think it is. The only reason I'm saying flash is interesting is because of how fast it is compared to all other media. It has nothing to do with me wanting to remove components from the consoles themselves.

BlueSkies wrote:

You're acting like a slot port for either new medium (flash or magnetic) would cost more when it would cost less. The whole point of the N64DD was it was the middle road-- it was a cheaper drive than an optical drive, it was faster, it was rewritable, and the medium was in between carts and CDs in cost. A port for a flash based memory card would for certain be waaay cheaper (use less power and create less heat)

For a cartridge? Yes, that would be a side benefit. You wouldn't need a mechanism in the device itself to physically read it you'd just need to have electrical contact. Which is cheaper. But that would be significantly outweighed by the higher cost of the disks themselves. Particularly higher capacity one, at least for now. For an external magnetic disk? You'd need a drive. In theory it wouldn't be as expensive as it was when these drives were still around but it wouldn't be free. Just to put this pricing nonsense to bed once and for all I dug up a magazine from late 2002 which has some prices. So here we go, some retail prices from when external magnetic disks were just barely still holding on:

DVD-ROM drive - $125AU
20GB portable HDD - $400AU
64MB thumbdrive - $155AU
100MB Zip-Disk reader - $170AU
750MB Zip-Disk reader - $370AU

Just look at those prices for a second ignoring entirely the fact that they look ridiculous compared to what we pay now. I think it's pretty clear why people moved to flash for quick transfers between PCs and optical media for distribution. That was the last straw in a very, very long trend that was running against the media, there is absolutely zero reason to go back to magnetic disks. If it was as fantastic an idea as you think it is then surely one of the big three would have gone down that road. They didn't, neither did the public. Looking at the prices and considering the read speeds and capacities of each solution I think it's clear why.

If you want to write data to the console then use a HDD. They're readily available in pretty decent capacities at a reasonable price. If you want a faster media you've shown nothing to support your opinion that they would be faster other than that they were faster than CDs back in the mid 90s. If you want a cheaper solution well you've repeatedly ignored the fact that a removable mechanical disk would require a drive. You have no argument but it is entertaining.

BlueSkies wrote:

The paradigm of optical disks results in weaker hardware. The optical disk design does not put the rendering of games first as the priority; it puts the maximum profit first.

Even when external magnetic disks still had somewhat of a place this was wrong. Optical disks for the time were faster, higher capacity and cheaper. Cheaper not just because of the disks themselves but also the drives to read them. The only advantage removable magnetic disks had towards the end was the ability to write data to them. Something which you can do by just having a HDD in the console or a bit of flash. Which all of them do. So there's no reason for it and you have it all backwards. The way things are now is better in every single measure than what you are suggesting.

Edited on by skywake

Some good Aussie musics: King Gizzard, Pond, TFS
"Don't stir the pot" is a nice way of saying "they're too dumb to reason with"

dumedum

@skywake It's really not a pattern that has anything to do with the subject at hand. How can one capcom game be a pattern when they brought other games and so did Square Enix all the other titles already mentioned. The 3DS obviously could deal with sequels to revelations. Those games are skipping 3DS because 3rd parties don't like to bring certain titles to Nintendo. And the main reason is they're afraid of disappointing sales/wrong demographics. They didn't bring it to the Wii U yet you basically want the 3DS to have the same powers of the Wii U but with even worse sale numbers potentially and somehow you would have had the sequel that Wii U didn't get either. Makes a lot of sense, right. So a new console would be stupid. They might do it but it'll be stupid because it'll only be worse with far worse user base etc. At the same time they didn't bring Revelations 2, they brought Monster Hunter 4, Cross and other stuff. You're ignoring massive content in previous posts to reiterate your opinion. That's fine.

Edited on by dumedum

"Dubs Goes to Washington: The Video Game".

Nintendo Network ID: Del_Piero_Mamba

DefHalan

@BlueSkies

So the future of Digital Download is going to the store to buy blank carts that someone has to produce, so I can download the game at home but still have to switch it out of my system depending on what game I want to play? That is a terrible idea.

People keep saying the Xbox One doesn't have Backwards Compatibility.
I don't think they know what Backwards Compatibility means...

3DS Friend Code: 2621-2786-9784 | Nintendo Network ID: DefHalan

KingMike

BlueSkies, you are basically asking Nintendo to make an iPad clone... with a Zip drive.

KingMike

GrailUK

Well I thought it was going to be called the Nintendo NX, following the Nintendo DX name which is a hybrid. Now, after Monster Hunter X announcement I have to consider if it is actually Nintendo Cross which sounds like a hybrid...

I never drive faster than I can see. Besides, it's all in the reflexes.

Switch FC: SW-0287-5760-4611

GrailUK

DefHalan wrote:

skywake wrote:

DefHalan wrote:

How does digital download games work without a type of internal storage device?

Untitled

Amazing

Outstanding sir!

I never drive faster than I can see. Besides, it's all in the reflexes.

Switch FC: SW-0287-5760-4611

skywake

The whole "portable vs home console" argument comes down to what they'd gain more out of. Assuming a middle of the road prediction for both, slightly better than the PS4 for a home console and slightly under 360 for a portable. What can we safely assume that they'd gain out of it? Right? Simple enough. So list time.

New home console slightly above the PS4 in terms of power:

  • They would lose less big games with the excuse "it's not powerful enough"
  • Games they were going to get anyway would look marginally better
  • Nintendo fans could brag about how their system is more powerful

New portable console slightly behind the 360 in terms of spec:

  • They would lose less big games with the excuse "it's not powerful enough"
  • It would open them up to a much larger library of indie titles on their portable
  • We'd see games brought back with polish from the Wii and GC eras rather than just the N64 era
  • The VC service could easily expand to new platforms. SNES, GBA, N64
  • Games they were going to get anyway would look quite a bit better
  • Nintendo fans could brag about how their system is more powerful

Edited on by skywake

Some good Aussie musics: King Gizzard, Pond, TFS
"Don't stir the pot" is a nice way of saying "they're too dumb to reason with"

iKhan

skywake wrote:

The whole "portable vs home console" argument comes down to what they'd gain more out of. Assuming a middle of the road prediction for both, slightly better than the PS4 for a home console and slightly under 360 for a portable. What can we safely assume that they'd gain out of it? Right? Simple enough. So list time.

New home console slightly above the PS4 in terms of power:

  • They would lose less big games with the excuse "it's not powerful enough"
  • Games they were going to get anyway would look marginally better
  • Nintendo fans could brag about how their system is more powerful

New portable console slightly behind the 360 in terms of spec:

  • They would lose less big games with the excuse "it's not powerful enough"
  • It would open them up to a much larger library of indie titles on their portable
  • We'd see games brought back with polish from the Wii and GC eras rather than just the N64 era
  • The VC service could easily expand to new platforms. SNES, GBA, N64
  • Games they were going to get anyway would look quite a bit better
  • Nintendo fans could brag about how their system is more powerful

You forgot one for it being a handheld

-Nintendo would be able to create new iterations in most of their major franchises, which they currently cannot do given that most of these franchises have already come to 3DS.

Currently Playing: Steamworld Heist, The Legend of Zelda: Majora's Mask

skywake

New home console:
"Why would I buy Mario Kart again so soon just for slightly better shadow resolution?"

New portable:
"Damn, this new portable Mario Kart looks about as good as it does on the Wii U!"

Edited on by skywake

Some good Aussie musics: King Gizzard, Pond, TFS
"Don't stir the pot" is a nice way of saying "they're too dumb to reason with"

Bolt_Strike

skywake wrote:

"Damn, this new portable Mario Kart looks about as good as it does on the Wii U!"

That wouldn't exactly be that impressive.

Bolt_Strike

3DS Friend Code: 4725-8075-8961 | Nintendo Network ID: Bolt_Strike

GuSolarFlare

a console with tons of launch titles that start with a boom caling everyone's attention and convincing third parties of joining and gamecube-n64 hybrid controller(just in the looks) to get the nostalgia fans right on board, basically a contoller that looks weird but plays just like any old VG controller without fancy features

Edited on by GuSolarFlare

goodbyes are a sad part of life but for every end there's a new beggining so one must never stop looking forward to the next dawn
now working at IBM as helpdesk analyst
my Backloggery

3DS Friend Code: 3995-7085-4333 | Nintendo Network ID: GustavoSF

iKhan

If Sony and Microsoft are planning on keeping the PS4/XB1 for 7-8 years, it may be worthwhile for Nintendo to focus really hard on differentiating from those systems. If anything, they don't want to release a console that seems like a stop gap until Sony and Microsoft move on. They want to release a system that comes across as "next-gen" and pushes other companies to jump forward too.

Currently Playing: Steamworld Heist, The Legend of Zelda: Majora's Mask

skywake

The more I think about it the more I'm starting to like the idea of an ecosystem of hardware. Not just a single device but a range of devices that make up a single "Nintendo" platform. When you buy something on Android or iOS you get it on phones, tablets, TVs, media players and so on. Or with Steam where you can install it on a new PC and you can just download your old games right there and just run them at higher settings. Because they're all built on the same stuff and it's largely the same code. Why not do that for consoles?

Have a portable NX and a home console NX. Every couple of years they release new hardware and it's automatically compatible with existing software. When you buy the newest model it's more powerful and therefore open to more content. No more console generations, no more clear divisions between what's portable and not other than the physical media if you don't want to go digital. More ambitious software only available on the higher end hardware. Stuff that's less so on all of the things.

And then next year when they announce this they come out with the portable. Start to push out some of the portable tier games for the new singular platform. The year after they launch the home-console version which from day 1 is compatible with all of the portable games. Perhaps eventually also try a micro-console that's far cheaper for the more casual gamer or for a second TV. Cross-play, cross-buy. Done. Money printing machines active for the rest of forever.

Edited on by skywake

Some good Aussie musics: King Gizzard, Pond, TFS
"Don't stir the pot" is a nice way of saying "they're too dumb to reason with"

IceClimbers

Assuming the NX is a home console, they need to do this:

1. x64-86 architecture. PowerPC isn't used anymore - if they use it, they can kiss 3rd party support goodbye.
2. Proper Marketing. Have the aggressiveness in marketing that they used to have. This is essential. People need to know it exists.
3. Drop the Wii moniker. The Wii moniker has a negative stigma attached to it. It's time to drop the Wii branding.
4. Future-proof hardware. This system needs to be designed to keep up with the PS5 and XB4. Releasing a system designed to compete with the XB1 and PS4 will just cause a repeat of the Wii U.
5. 3rd party support. Can't emphasize this enough. Get 3rd party devs on board. Give them the proper tools. Pay them for exclusives - 3rd party exclusives are just as important, if not more, than multiplats. Multiplats alone won't convince people. Advertise these 3rd party games.
6. Online. This DeNA partnership needs to result in an online infrastructure that revolves around your NNID that isn't tied to the hardware. Get standard services going, particularly cross-buy and party chat. It should be seamless. Also needs to be only one eShop. Also needs an ethernet port.
7. Launch Lineup. There needs to be a solid launch lineup that is a mixture of 1st party, 3rd party multiplats, and 3rd/2nd party exclusives. Most of these games need to be available day 1, or within the 1st year. Have Zelda U, Smash 4 (w/ all DLC included), and Pokken Tournament ported to NX.
8. Digital Offerings. Have a range of indies available early on. Also have at least every 1st party NES and SNES game available on the eShop on Day 1 so as to prevent competition between VC games and indie games somewhat.
9. Be compatible with the Wiimote, GamePad, Wii U Pro Controller, and GCN Controller Adapter. No reason not to. They do need to drop the prices on these controllers ($20 Wiimote, $10 Nunchuck, $10 GCN Controller Adapter, $25 GCN Controller, $30 Wii U Pro Controller, $50 GamePad)
10. Media capabilities. Needs a range of media apps from Day 1 - Netflix, Hulu Plus, Youtube, Twitch, Crunchyroll, Miiverse, Amazon Prime/Instant Video, etc. Needs USB 3.0 ports.
11. Storage. Needs at least a 500 GB hard drive, with the ability to expand it with external HDDs.

3DS Friend Code: 2363-5630-0794

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