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Topic: What should Nintendo do to make the NX succeed?

Posts 21 to 40 of 89

BlueSkies

@TwilightAngel
At first I thought you were joking. You just need to stay out of the NX board if you're going to lament NX topics.

@skywake
You're comparing how fast a magnetic disk could be read in the late 90s to how fast an optical disk can run today-- the accurate comparison would be how fast the optical disk ran in the 90s. And you're still ignoring the cost of optical drives and massive 500GB HDDs and fixating on the cost of games. Sony's paradigm works for Sony because they make Bluray. Nintendo needs to be the alternative and they can create a far more powerful console by sidestepping Sony's paradigm just as they did with N64 (whether they use a flash medium or a modernized zip drive). You're ignoring the part about modernizing the technology. It's been 15 years since then.

I wager that a magnetic disk (with none of the mechanics to run it built into the casing) will be cheaper than Nintendo going to flash memory. It is the equivalent of doing nothing more than creating an empty HDD driver-- and then you're only insterting a 50-ish GB disk (not a 500GB disk).

Portable- I think the next portable should just have the same graphics architecture as the New 3DS so if people want the many-button design, they can go out and buy the New 3DS. The next portable should be designed for tablet consumers-- they are a much larger market and the true-tablet design is what they want. The larger portable market doesn't want clam shell designs anymore and they don't want a bunch of buttons like a toy. These consumers are very image conscious. All of this focus on pocket phones and tablets is just a trend.

Adults need a desktop or laptop so they can do grownup work. Phones and tablets are toys in disguise.

BlueSkies

skywake

BlueSkies wrote:

You're comparing how fast a magnetic disk could be read in the late 90s to how fast an optical disk can run today-- the accurate comparison would be how fast the optical disk ran in the 90s.

Actually I compared how fast a 2003 era zip disk performed against the optical media of the day. There was no speed advantage, the disks cost more and the ability to write data to it was redundant given the decreasing cost of flash. These tech companies know what tech works, none of them chased after removable magnetic media. To quote myself:

"It (the 2003 zip-disk) wasn't even competitive with DVDs in terms of the specs that matter here. Which is why the PS2, XBox and Gamecube all went with DVD based tech for distribution. Tech moves on, nobody is going to revisit zip-disks."

BlueSkies wrote:

And you're still ignoring the cost of optical drives and massive 500GB HDDs and fixating on the cost of games

I didn't mention the cost of games once. All I did was state the facts of the tech itself as plainly as I could. Also the cost of an optical drive and a 500GB HDD isn't anywhere near as much as you think it is. For the volumes they're getting we're talking somewhere in the order of $70US for both. Combined. Probably with the wireless thrown in for good measure. Which would be a one-off cost for components within the console itself. Probably about the same as it would be for the in-console components of your zip-disk solution which for some reason you're ignoring entirely.

BlueSkies wrote:

I wager that a magnetic disk (with none of the mechanics to run it built into the casing) will be cheaper than Nintendo going to flash memory. It is the equivalent of doing nothing more than creating an empty HDD driver-- and then you're only insterting a 50-ish GB disk (not a 500GB disk).

The economics of tech means that a 50GB HDD does not cost 1/10th of the price of a 500GB HDD. It doesn't work like that. Also if you were to have the disk component separate from the mechanism you'd have to spin the disk slower. Which is the crux of the problem here. Removable magnetic disks were only ever marginally faster than optical media even at their peak. They were however more expensive and didn't store anywhere near as much. All they had on optical media was the ability to easily write to them. So when cheap flash came along? It became obsolete.

Also when I talk about SSDs being fast and cheap I'm not talking about sending games out on SSDs. It technically could be done in some form but that's not what I'm talking about. When I brought them up I specifically said that they would be used instead of HDDs for the storage of downloadable games. The fact that they are so fast and are improving at the pace they are should mean that we will eventually get back to ridiculously quick loading times. Which again is what the whole N64 dealeo was about in the first place and is why I said it was an exciting development in storage tech.

That all said, if they were to go for a more expensive media for physical distribution? It would be cartridges. They already do it with the 3DS and Sony does it with the Vita. So it is already feasible to some degree. Ontop of that there is a huge potential for such a media to get cheaper and faster as solid state storage continues to advance. Something which is less true for magnetic storage which has been pretty stagnant in comparison. Especially when it comes to speed where it has been about the same for decades.

BlueSkies wrote:

The next portable should be designed for tablet consumers-- they are a much larger market and the true-tablet design is what they want. The larger portable market doesn't want clam shell designs anymore and they don't want a bunch of buttons like a toy. These consumers are very image conscious.

Don't kid yourself, you're buying a games console. The thing is a toy. The reason it has buttons is because that's a better way to control games which is what the device is designed around. If people don't want to play the sort of game that requires a more exact input mechanism? They'll just use their phone. Which is what I said before when you didn't listen.

Edited on by skywake

Some good Aussie musics: King Gizzard, Pond, TFS
"Don't stir the pot" is a nice way of saying "they're too dumb to reason with"

foobarbaz

DefHalan wrote:

Is this not exactly what the Wii U was supposed to be?

No. It's too underpowered when compared to the competition and shipped with a controller that turned off a lot of gamers.

Edited on by foobarbaz

foobarbaz

DefHalan

foobarbaz wrote:

DefHalan wrote:

Is this not exactly what the Wii U was supposed to be?

No. It's too underpowered when compared to the competition and shipped with a controller that turned off a lot of gamers.

It was slightly more powerful than the 360/PS3 (its competitors at the time) and had a controller that could easily function just like its competitors.

People keep saying the Xbox One doesn't have Backwards Compatibility.
I don't think they know what Backwards Compatibility means...

3DS Friend Code: 2621-2786-9784 | Nintendo Network ID: DefHalan

BlueSkies

"I didn't mention the cost of games once."
"For an optical disk it's a couple of dollars or so to distribute upto 50GB of data."

Bluray (6X) reads at 27 MB/s. The PS4 magnetic disk hdd can read at around 3 GB/s (correct me if I'm wrong).

$70 for a hdd is $70 not spent on the GPU (which they aren't spending over $100 on).

Download-only is not the way for them to go. If they go with flash memory then the game has to be put on the flash card-- not downloaded to a ssd.

"Don't kid yourself, you're buying a games console. The thing is a toy. The reason it has buttons is because that's a better way to control games which is what the device is designed around. If people don't want to play the sort of game that requires a more exact input mechanism? They'll just use their phone. Which is what I said before when you didn't listen."

The customers we are talking about don't care about "better." They care about image and portability. If Nintendo takes up the attitude, "they can just use their phone," then exactly that will happen-- and no one will own a Nintendo portable. You have to make the product that the consumer wants and the consumers don't want buttons. Having one analog stick and two shoulder keys is a compromise. They could just make the portable with no sticks at all.

A whole generation is growing up not playing GameBoy or a Nintendo console-- they're playing ipad and they really don't care at all that it doesn't have sticks.

Edited on by BlueSkies

BlueSkies

dumedum

They should not make it.
That ship has sailed, the train left the station.
I think for a while now Wii U is selling pretty well, steadily, especially in Japan there were good signs. They should continue on that platform. As for the 3DS, they just launched the New 3DS, and it will be crazy to do a successor now. Both should be fine for a long time. NX i think is a third tier, something else. Replacing either of these will be stupid. Any new console might be a bad idea going forward.

Edited on by dumedum

"Dubs Goes to Washington: The Video Game".

Nintendo Network ID: Del_Piero_Mamba

iKhan

dumedum wrote:

They should not make it.
That ship has sailed, the train left the station.
I think for a while now Wii U is selling pretty well, steadily, especially in Japan there were good signs. They should continue on that platform. As for the 3DS, they just launched the New 3DS, and it will be crazy to do a successor now. Both should be fine for a long time. NX i think is a third tier, something else. Replacing either of these will be stupid. Any new console might be a bad idea going forward.

The 3DS came out very soon after the DS-i came out; and the New 3DS has had only one exclusive since it's launch last fall. The 3DS is also pretty much the only SD piece of technology that still has a major place on the market. It needs a replacement.

2017 will have been 5 years for the Wii U. That's plenty of time to satisfy their consumers, and move on to a platform that they can innovate more with.

Currently Playing: Pokemon Crystal, The Legend of Zelda: Majora's Mask, Super Smash Bros: Ultimate, Daemon X Machina Prototype Missions

Jmaster

They should make it a handheld. The 3DS is ancient at this point, anybody who believes otherwise is kidding themselves.
They should NOT make it a third pillar. If they can barely support two, why make three.
They should take advantage of the fact that, at this point, they're no longer a dominant player in the Dedicated Gaming Handheld market. Rather, they ARE the DGH market.
They should NOT compromise this status by turning the NX into anything other than a DGH.
They should realize that their market will be small but loyal, as in, a small number of sold systems with a large attach rate.
They should NOT use some never-before-seen technology to differentiate themselves from competition that isn't there.
They should use natural aspects of DGH's to differentiate themselves from competition that IS there.
Finally, they should NOT try anything that the world isn't ready for yet.

Jmaster

dumedum

iKhan wrote:

The 3DS came out very soon after the DS-i came out; and the New 3DS has had only one exclusive since it's launch last fall.

Exactly. Still has a lot of potential and exclusive games to make for in the future.

The 3DS is also pretty much the only SD piece of technology that still has a major place on the market.

And it fulfills that place. Any new portable would probably end up losing to Vita at least in Japan. Why would Nintendo abandon its huge base of 3DS's which are still selling better than Vitas.

2017 will have been 5 years for the Wii U. That's plenty of time to satisfy their consumers, and move on to a platform that they can innovate more with.

No, it's not. They were burnt this round, and the PS4 is capturing the market. Both that and the Xbox One will have millions of user bases by then. They will crush any Nintendo home console by then. Basically, it's exactly like Sega. A new console by Nintendo after a "failure" is exactly what Sega did. They would fail miserably. They already capture the Nintendo faithful very well with the Wii U, so it's stupid to compromise that, and families/kids will most likely buy the cheapest consoles if anything, which they can do must more easily with the Wii U.

Jmaster wrote:

They should make it a handheld. The 3DS is ancient at this point, anybody who believes otherwise is kidding themselves.

It's really not. Especially not the new 3DS. The 3D technology is nothing but amazing/awesome and not found anywhere else, and the games ran beautifully. Any console that can run Xenoblade and Smash Bros. the way 3DS did is not ancient. It is right up to date.

Edited on by dumedum

"Dubs Goes to Washington: The Video Game".

Nintendo Network ID: Del_Piero_Mamba

skywake

BlueSkies wrote:

"I didn't mention the cost of games once."
"For an optical disk it's a couple of dollars or so to distribute upto 50GB of data."

I'm not talking about the cost of the games. I'm talking about the cost of your solution from the bottom up. From the components that would need to be in the console itself right down to the cost of the disks themselves. You can't just pretend that all that is free because it wouldn't be.

BlueSkies wrote:

Bluray (6X) reads at 27 MB/s. The PS4 magnetic disk hdd can read at around 3 GB/s (correct me if I'm wrong).

You're wrong. A Blu-Ray disk is read at about 30MB/s and a portable HDD reads at 80MB/s. Your solution would by its very nature have to be slower than a HDD. And when you say 3Gbps you're thinking of the theoretical speed of the SATA interface (SATA II). A version of which (SATA III) is what I was talking about when I said SSDs were running at 500MB/s. But b = bits and B = Bytes, there are 8 bits in a byte. So Blu-Ray is 240Mbps, HDD is 640Mbps, a standard SSD is 4Gbps and those really fast SSDs are doing 11Gbps. Hence why I've been saying you better keep an eye on what SSDs do to game consoles because damn are they fast.

BlueSkies wrote:

$70 for a hdd is $70 not spent on the GPU (which they aren't spending over $100 on).

I believe what I said was that it was $70 at the point of manufacture for the HDD, ODD AND the wireless. How much would your solution cost in terms of the drive? You think it'd be free to include a device that is capable of reading proprietary magnetic disks? What about the R&D involved in bringing this back from the tech graveyard? You think that they could magnically make that whole setup free?

BlueSkies wrote:

Download-only is not the way for them to go. If they go with flash memory then the game has to be put on the flash card-- not downloaded to a ssd.

Like it or not they're going to have some form of internal storage. I don't see why this is something you don't want to see frankly. And no, I'm not saying that they're going to go digital only. All I'm saying is that little will change in terms of tech except that cartridges will get bigger and faster and the HDDs that are put in high end consoles will eventually be replaced with flash.

BlueSkies wrote:

The customers we are talking about don't care about "better." They care about image and portability. If Nintendo takes up the attitude, "they can just use their phone," then exactly that will happen-- and no one will own a Nintendo portable. You have to make the product that the consumer wants and the consumers don't want buttons. Having one analog stick and two shoulder keys is a compromise. They could just make the portable with no sticks at all. A whole generation is growing up not playing GameBoy or a Nintendo console-- they're playing ipad and they really don't care at all that it doesn't have sticks.

As I said, people already have their phones and tablets. They buy a dedicated gaming console so they can play games that aren't possible on those devices. Whether it be better visuals or the better controls. People who buy into that market most definitely care about it being better than a phone or tablet for playing games. You want to take away that one advantage they have over the competition from mobile? The thing will fall flat on its face. How are you going to play a 3D Mario game or a game like Smash Bros without sticks and buttons? I for one wouldn't buy this device you're talking about.

dumedum wrote:

Jmaster wrote:

They should make it a handheld. The 3DS is ancient at this point, anybody who believes otherwise is kidding themselves.

It's really not. Especially not the new 3DS. The 3D technology is nothing but amazing/awesome and not found anywhere else, and the games ran beautifully. Any console that can run Xenoblade and Smash Bros. the way 3DS did is not ancient. It is right up to date.

You're kidding yourself. The New 3DS is a minor revision and the tech under the hood is still five years old. The 3DS is behind every flagship smartphone on the market in terms of graphics and even some of the less capable ones now. It's behind the Vita but even the Vita is behind what phones can do now. And sure Nintendo is still finding a way to cram games into it but where is the third party support? Where are the ports of indie games? What about the Rayman games? It got a horribly performing port of the original and was skipped entirely for the second. Child of Light? It was the only gaming platform not to get that game.

I mean, to be a little bit cheeky, right now the 3DS is capable of something approaching this:
Untitled
If they created a new portable? They could do this:
Untitled

I for one want Nintendo to keep at least within shouting distance of what is technically possible on a reasonably priced portable device. I wouoldn't be at all upset if instead of trimming down a Wii game and only giving it to a fraction of the audience they instead IMPROVED the title and gave it to a whole new platform. Super Mario Galaxy semi-HD portable edition. I'd buy that in a heartbeat over Super Mario Galaxy: The return of the Jaggies

Edited on by skywake

Some good Aussie musics: King Gizzard, Pond, TFS
"Don't stir the pot" is a nice way of saying "they're too dumb to reason with"

dumedum

@skywake the 3DS is not competing with the phones in terms of graphics. It has 3D which is beautiful. The New 3DS was a major improvement in 3D, control and boosted performance. It"s just perfect. I have a Nexus 6 phone. If I had to choose between these graphics and the 3DS 3D graphics I'd choose the 3DS.

Games are not even a competition. I have zero interest playing on my phone. Last time I did that was the countless runners on my old phone. 3DS wins by default with the controls.
Games third party? You mean like Bravely Default? Monster Hunter? There are countless third party games. Mostly Japanese of course because the western developers won't be too interested even if it had all the specs in the world. That argument is completely void and bogus. It also has plenty of successful indies. Shovel Knight, Retro City Rampage, Gunmanclive, steamworld dig....

Edited on by dumedum

"Dubs Goes to Washington: The Video Game".

Nintendo Network ID: Del_Piero_Mamba

Fazzie_Bear

I honestly don't know what Nintendo will do with the NX. I trust that, with DeNA's help, they will do what it takes to be a durable competing force in the gaming marketplace. They need to appeal to gamers and beyond, by integrating the accessibility of mobile platforms with the sufficiency of gaming platforms. I don't know whether it'll have a controller that could be referred to as an upgraded Wii U controller, or something different entirely. In fact, I don't even know if it'll reflect a traditional gaming console in any way. We as fans need to be open-minded, and not resort to our conservative instincts as we need to let Nintendo be successful. I'm certain they will find a way to appeal to its existing fandom, and beyond.

Actually, I think it's conspicuous Nintendo's digital marketplace will be an entity apart from the eShop, and more reminiscent of the App Store or the Google Play store, in terms of accessibility and affordability... something new and innovative. As for physical games, I'm not actually sure if we'll be seeing the death of that.

Edited on by Fazzie_Bear

Currently playing: Super Mario Maker, Legend of Zelda: Triforce Heroes
Amiibo Collection: Link (SSB4), Luigi (SSB4), Pac-Man(SSB4), Mega Man (SSB4)
Most Anticipated Game: FNAF World

Bolt_Strike

skywake wrote:

I mean, to be a little bit cheeky, right now the 3DS is capable of something approaching this:
Untitled
If they created a new portable? They could do this:
Untitled

I for one want Nintendo to keep at least within shouting distance of what is technically possible on a reasonably priced portable device. I wouoldn't be at all upset if instead of trimming down a Wii game and only giving it to a fraction of the audience they instead IMPROVED the title and gave it to a whole new platform. Super Mario Galaxy semi-HD portable edition. I'd buy that in a heartbeat over Super Mario Galaxy: The return of the Jaggies

That's not that much of an improvement in graphics, you can barely tell them apart (the second one does look a tiny bit cleaner, but not by much).

Edited on by Bolt_Strike

Bolt_Strike

3DS Friend Code: 4725-8075-8961 | Nintendo Network ID: Bolt_Strike

Franklin

Region free.

Franklin

skywake

@dumedum
When I said the 3DS wasn't competitive with what phones can do now I was talking in terms of the hardware. Of course its games are more impressive than what you can get on phones. Nobody really wants to spend anymore than $1 on phone games. But the hardware is well behind and there's no reason why someone can't come out with a portable platform that runs rings around the 3DS. And yes, the 3DS does have indie games, I'm not saying it doesn't. What I said was that there are a lot more games that it could have and should have and the main reason they aren't there is limitations in power. Just with indie titles going down the list the 3DS doesn't have these games all of which are on Wii U and Vita at the very least:

  • Guacamelee!
  • Child of Light
  • Bit Trip Runner 2
  • The Swapper
  • Castlestorm
  • Stealth Inc 2
  • Stick it to the Man!
  • Thomas was Alone
  • Scram Kitty and His Buddy on Rails
  • Knytt Underground
  • Nihilumbra

..... you think this isn't something that could be improved? How many more indie titles are we going to miss out on on Nintendo's portable platform if they don't do something? This is a problem that's only going to get worse.

@Bolt_Strike
It's kinda hard to find games from the 3DS spec that are impressive and compare them to something more along the lines of the 360 spec. The type of games they make for each system are entirely different. However the 3DS is closest to a Gamecube spec so naturally I picked Metroid Prime although I did grab a Wii screenshot. Probably bumped that up a bit higher than it should be. But what's kinda similar in appearance on the 360? Well Halo 4 obviously. So that's where the second screenshot is from.

I mean I could've done this....
Untitled
Untitled
but I thought that would be a little heavy handed.....

Edited on by skywake

Some good Aussie musics: King Gizzard, Pond, TFS
"Don't stir the pot" is a nice way of saying "they're too dumb to reason with"

CanisWolfred

Bolt_Strike wrote:

skywake wrote:

I mean, to be a little bit cheeky, right now the 3DS is capable of something approaching this:
Untitled
If they created a new portable? They could do this:
Untitled

I for one want Nintendo to keep at least within shouting distance of what is technically possible on a reasonably priced portable device. I wouoldn't be at all upset if instead of trimming down a Wii game and only giving it to a fraction of the audience they instead IMPROVED the title and gave it to a whole new platform. Super Mario Galaxy semi-HD portable edition. I'd buy that in a heartbeat over Super Mario Galaxy: The return of the Jaggies

That's not that much of an improvement in graphics, you can barely tell them apart (the second one does look a tiny bit cleaner, but not by much).

Too be fair, Skywake used a lower resolution picture for the second so it wouldn't be huge. Let's try this: http://www.godisageek.com/wp-content/gallery/halo4e32012scree...

Metroid for comparison: http://cubemedia.ign.com/cube/image/primeugenegc7.jpg

Edited on by CanisWolfred

I am the Wolf...Red
Backloggery | DeviantArt
Wolfrun?

3DS Friend Code: 1418-6849-7569 | Nintendo Network ID: CanisWolfred

iKhan

dumedum wrote:

iKhan wrote:

The 3DS came out very soon after the DS-i came out; and the New 3DS has had only one exclusive since it's launch last fall.

Exactly. Still has a lot of potential and exclusive games to make for in the future.

The 3DS is also pretty much the only SD piece of technology that still has a major place on the market.

And it fulfills that place. Any new portable would probably end up losing to Vita at least in Japan. Why would Nintendo abandon its huge base of 3DS's which are still selling better than Vitas.

2017 will have been 5 years for the Wii U. That's plenty of time to satisfy their consumers, and move on to a platform that they can innovate more with.

No, it's not. They were burnt this round, and the PS4 is capturing the market. Both that and the Xbox One will have millions of user bases by then. They will crush any Nintendo home console by then. Basically, it's exactly like Sega. A new console by Nintendo after a "failure" is exactly what Sega did. They would fail miserably. They already capture the Nintendo faithful very well with the Wii U, so it's stupid to compromise that, and families/kids will most likely buy the cheapest consoles if anything, which they can do must more easily with the Wii U.

-No, the N3DS isn't that that much more powerful. Most franchises have seen their time on 3DS, and the lack of support and sales so far has indicated that it's not really viable for a long term. If Nintendo wanted the N3DS to sell like a new generation system, then that ship sailed months ago.

-Because that's how new platforms work. You take a risk leaving your old hardware to move on to new ideas with new hardware.

-No it'd be exactly like Sega if they kept releasing new platforms within a 2 or 3 years of the previous platform. 5 years has been the lifespan of every Nintendo home console except the Wii and NES. Of course the previous gen system will have millions of users, the PS360/Wii had millions of users too. But they had to move on. The Wii U, like every other home console, will start to see it's sales fall, and Nintendo will have ideas that will require a new platform.

Currently Playing: Pokemon Crystal, The Legend of Zelda: Majora's Mask, Super Smash Bros: Ultimate, Daemon X Machina Prototype Missions

Aozz101x

i think Splatoon was a great start for Wii U, maybe Nintendo should make more new IPS for NX
i' always wonder if Nintendo made a similar fighting game that like SC series and other 1 vs 1 fighting games (and i mean all nintendo franchise in that game, not something like Pokkén Tournament)
as for 3rd Parties i like see them show that they care for them in a way that can get them back to put there games on NX,

Edited on by Aozz101x

im creep out with thoese eyes... :P

3DS Friend Code: 3153-5789-3951 | Nintendo Network ID: Aozz101x

dumedum

@skywake I guess I don't see the appeal of having the same indies that appear on Wii U appear on 3DS as well. So I'll take something like Gunman Clive over all these games that I can just play on the Wii U. Unless it uses the 3DS capabilities like streetpass for example the way in Shovel Knight which was nice. It's the whole concept of whether we're really trying to have a portable home console that gives the same experiences, i.e., what the Vita was trying to do, or is it something completely different that offers somethings unique (3D, Streetpass) and can co-exist. Like you said, the 3DS does have indie games, and you're right, a more powerful successor will get more of the same indies that Wii U is getting, but is that really worth it? For the indies? Big western developers won't jump in so much, and Japanese developers are already there and very nicely so - why risk that.

Also, screenshots from the 3DS never do it justice, because they really do usually look stunning in full 3D. Luigi's Mansion 2, I mean comeon, that's gorgeous. Also Revelations. Stunning games.

Edited on by dumedum

"Dubs Goes to Washington: The Video Game".

Nintendo Network ID: Del_Piero_Mamba

skywake

@dumedum
The only reason I listed indie games was because there are quite a number of them that are on both portable and non portable platforms. The ones that were on the Wii U and the Vita would have definitely also been on a Nintendo handheld if there wasn't that barrier. Quite a few of those games are on PC, PS3, PS4, Vita, 360, XBOne and Wii U but not 3DS. Some were on all of those platforms AND iOS but not 3DS. That isn't a good thing. And I don't bring them up just because that's all that we'd get out of it. Because the truth is that if those guys are not coming to the 3DS then surely there are other games that Nintendo isn't getting on their portable.

With all that said you might think "well I only really want games built specifically for the 3DS anyways". Which is a fair point but I'm not necessarily talking about games that are multi-platform either. What I'm saying is that there are developers who have ideas that they want to implement but simply can't on the 3DS. Early in the consoles life that's just a case of "well you work with what you have" but towards the end? They could come out with a new and more importantly affordable portable tomorrow that blows the 3DS away in terms of specs. The fact that the 3DS is nowhere near as powerful as it could be is holding them back.

Edited on by skywake

Some good Aussie musics: King Gizzard, Pond, TFS
"Don't stir the pot" is a nice way of saying "they're too dumb to reason with"

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