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Topic: The Nintendo Switch Thread

Posts 81 to 100 of 24,797

Octane

@FattyWhale_42: Define ''hybrid console'', I've seen various people talking about different setups, but none seem to be reasonable products.

Many people think of a Wii U with a GamePad that you can take anywhere you want, effectively acting as a handheld. However that's in no way feasible. I think we can agree on that. The controller would have to contain all the hardware if you want it to work like a portable, the main ''console'' would therefore not be necessary, and you end up with a handheld that can stream games to a TV. The problem is that graphically it would be nowhere near as good as an actual home console. The only option that would be plausible is when both the controller and the main console contain all the hardware necessary to play games, the console would ''upgrade'' the graphics so that they would be on par with other consoles when played on a TV (I actually don't know how easy it is to achieve, but let's assume that it's possible). Anyway, now we're left with both a controller that plays games (effectively a handheld console), and the main console that plays games (effectively a home console). They would be selling two systems as one. At that point, why not sell both systems separately and give consumers the option to play handheld games on a TV if they own both systems, like how the Vita and PS4 work. I don't see any reasonable way in which it wouldn't be easier to just sell both systems separately, it is cheaper if you only want one and consumers have a choice and are not forced to buy both products.

Octane

Xenocity

@FattyWhale_42:
Handhelds need processors that work well with battery life, they need to be built around portability.
Packing in a console/desktop grade CPU and GPU would render the battery life worse than Game Gear (Laptops get 3-6 hours of battery life with playing game and watching videos on them)

The two markets are vastly different with some overlap with developers and consumer.
Handheld market wants portability and games focused on smaller time play time intervals. All accessories and apps are developed with that in mind along with the games. handhelds have limiting form factor that restricts the specs you can have, in part due to size, power draw, heat. Handhelds shouldn't have moving parts such as disc drives and hard drives. Handheld gamers normally don't want console style games on the go (it didn't work for Game Gear, Sega Nomad [it was just a portable Genesis), PSP [the software sales were abysmal in the West] and Vita). Handhelds are also way more price sensitive than consoles.

Console market does not respond kindly to short games and accessories. Console gamers don't want portable style games on their systems. Western developers dislike handhelds with a passion. Also console developers want desktop class CPUs and GPUs that aren't on a low power draw. Consoles aren't stuck with a limiting form factor like handhelds, thus are able to have better specs. Console gamers want everything built in from the get go, without the need to buy more accessories other than controllers.

They are two very different markets that have two very different consumer and developers with very little over lap.

Consumers don't like jack of all trades devices, because it leads to muddled experience and they do nothing well (Smartphone aren't there yet).
The technology also does not exist to create a "hybrid" at an affordable price and form factor yet.

Lastly you don't combined two very profitable product lines into one product line, because it will hurt your revenue in the long run.

Creating a "hybrid" that use a console base would be a disaster that makes Vita, Wii U and Saturn together seem like nothing.
Console gamers would shun the "hybrid" because it's not built with console gaming in mind and lacks the console features, while being an expensive accessory (it would need to be $200+ without controllers). Console developers would just see it as not worth developing for, as it is not a "real console" and doesn't attract "console" gamers.

The handheld aspect would be designed with console in mind leading to trade offs and compromises that would hurt the handheld side. At the same it would put off "handheld" gamers, while not being price competitive. No one wants an expensive handheld.

You end up losing the advantages of both the console and handheld, while ending up with a muddled mediocre piece of hardware.

It's better to have two different pieces of hardware that serve their markets well than trying to make one piece of hardware that tries to serve multiple distinct markets.

The NPD Group defines a core gamer... See Nintendo isn't part of the "hardcore"/core gaming group according to NPD data.
http://venturebeat.com/2014/05/13/34m-hardcore-gamers-play-an-average-of-22-hours-a-week-but-nintendo-isnt-core-enough-to-count/

Nintendo Network ID: Xenocity

Paulthevgnerd

There's two feasible possibilities of what the NX is:
-a family of devices
-the first member of the new family

It's hard to tell which one it is, but it would make sense for it to be the former, since the NX has been really referred to as a singular device. As to WHAT the device is, I have no idea. I like to say that it is a home console with a new gimmick due to past quotes, but it still can totally be a new handheld. We will never know until Nintendo comes out and says, "The NX is our next...".

Paulthevgnerd

gcunit

@Octane and @Xenocity

Super Smash Bros. is nigh on the same game, available on Wii U and 3DS. I reckon that if you took the code needed for those 2 games, there would be quite a lot of matching code. If the Wii U and 3DS had been designed to work together more, the code would be even closer. Wham! Right there you have a console game that people also like playing on the go. Merging the 2 pieces of code to enable one cart/sd card/download file to run in '3DS mode' when detached from the hub device, running in 'Wii U' mode when connected to the hub. That doesn't seem so inachievable to me. I imagine you will keep saying the tech doesn't exist for it right up until someone actually releases it, but someone has to innovate and launch 'new tech'.

Perhaps stop looking at it as a hybrid and start thinking of it more as a 2-in-1. Heck, the portable hardware and the hub device could be sold separately for those that don't want both. The two devices retain there own cpu, ram, gpu, but whenever you save a game/state, the save file on the storage syncs to both devices.

Edited on by gcunit

Use the 'ignore' button, it works.

Currently playing: Rocket League; Splatoon 2; Super Mario Odyssey; Xenoblade Chronicles; Fire Emblem; Suikoden; Kirby Triple Deluxe; ICO; Gravity Rush; Ratchet & Clank; Red Faction: Guerilla; Fez; FIFA 18

Nothing is true; Everything is permitted.

DefHalan

@gcunit: So you are saying Nintendo should create two versions of a game for the price of a single game? Or are you asking people that might just want a portable game to pay the price of both games? The Hybrid Device is not only a technical problembut also a Marketing and a Production problem. What does Nintendo gain from a Hybrid Device? What does the consumer gain from a Hybrid device? Consumer getting two games for the price of one means Nintendo has to pay more for production and gain less money from sales. How can both sides of the coin benefit from a Hybrid device. Also, with this Hybrid device how could my wife be at home playing a game on our Home Console and me be at work playing on a Handheld console with the Hybrid Device?

EDIT: Also if the "Hub" for the Home Console is sold separately, Then why would anyone who doesn't want a portable gaming system buy it? The price just skyrocketed and you have to pay for something you don't want. It makes more sense to make two pieces of hardware with the ability to connect rather than two pieces of hardware required to connect.

Edited on by DefHalan

People keep saying the Xbox One doesn't have Backwards Compatibility.
I don't think they know what Backwards Compatibility means...

3DS Friend Code: 2621-2786-9784 | Nintendo Network ID: DefHalan

Xenocity

@gcunit:
Many parts of the Smash Bros codes are near identical, but at least 50% of it is code specific for each platform due to hardware differences.
Also each game uses has it's own set of assets on top of it.
NX Smash Bros would be one game that would scale accordingly, while using almost 95% of the same code, and 100% of the same assets.

Even if the tech did exist for a "hybrid" it still bad business sense to combined two very distinct and different markets into one market.

Keeping both pieces of hardware separate will allow the company to address each market properly.
It also allows them to keep two lines of revenue going as well.

Convergence products rare do well in addressing all the markets they are made for, let alone providing the best experiences to the consumer.

You don't see auto companies combining trucks and cars into one size fit all vehicle.
You don't see smartphones and tablets merging into one market and product line.
You don't see computers merging with tablets to form a new market (Surface Pros don't count).

Apple could merge all their product lines into iPhones, where you would have very sizes of iPhones that replace Macs, iPads, iPods, iPod Touches and servers.
But it would kill Apple fast due to the fact that it wouldn't specifically address the needs of each specific market.

A golden rule of business: Address each market's need specifically, instead of trying to merge them into one big market.

Edited on by Xenocity

The NPD Group defines a core gamer... See Nintendo isn't part of the "hardcore"/core gaming group according to NPD data.
http://venturebeat.com/2014/05/13/34m-hardcore-gamers-play-an-average-of-22-hours-a-week-but-nintendo-isnt-core-enough-to-count/

Nintendo Network ID: Xenocity

FattyWhale_42

@DefHalan: The handheld part is the "brain" while the "home" part is the interface to the TV, optical disc drive, local multi-player, and will boost all the functions of the main unit. This will make the "home" part useful, but not necessary for those who don't want to play on their TV, who don't need local multi-player, who download all their games, etc.

@Octane: Think more like a 3DS XL. Remember, it's quite similar to the Wii U gamepad already. It looks like you already have the basic idea, but if both the handheld and home systems can function independent of one another, then you'd have too many redundant components, which would then make it impractical.

@Xenocity: You let me worry about what the market (and consumers) does, and doesn't want.

Big Fish. Fun Time.

3DS Friend Code: 5370-0485-5280 | Nintendo Network ID: FattyWhale_42

DefHalan

@FattyWhale_42: How would that be useful for people that don't want a handheld system? People won't want to pay for something they aren't using. So if they aren't using it as a portable system then why would they buy the portable system?

People keep saying the Xbox One doesn't have Backwards Compatibility.
I don't think they know what Backwards Compatibility means...

3DS Friend Code: 2621-2786-9784 | Nintendo Network ID: DefHalan

FattyWhale_42

DefHalan wrote:

@FattyWhale_42: How would that be useful for people that don't want a handheld system? People won't want to pay for something they aren't using. So if they aren't using it as a portable system then why would they buy the portable system?

Judging by the sales, there aren't that many who own a Wii U but not a system from the 3DS family. However, there are millions of the opposite. It's about eliminating redundancies, and not splitting resources on an unsustainable market.

Big Fish. Fun Time.

3DS Friend Code: 5370-0485-5280 | Nintendo Network ID: FattyWhale_42

DefHalan

FattyWhale_42 wrote:

DefHalan wrote:

How would that be useful for people that don't want a handheld system? People won't want to pay for something they aren't using. So if they aren't using it as a portable system then why would they buy the portable system?

Judging by the sales, there aren't that many who own a Wii U but not a system from the 3DS family. However, there are millions of the opposite. It's about eliminating redundancies, and not splitting resources on an unsustainable market.

Judging by the sales there are millions of people who own a Xbox 360, XB1, PS3, or PS4 that don't own a 3DS or Vita. It is about delivering a product the customer wants, not trying to sell them a product they won't use.

People keep saying the Xbox One doesn't have Backwards Compatibility.
I don't think they know what Backwards Compatibility means...

3DS Friend Code: 2621-2786-9784 | Nintendo Network ID: DefHalan

Paulthevgnerd

@DefHalan: not to mention the increasingly amount of Smartphone users in the casual market (mainly the kids, I see them everywhere using tablets and iphones, rather then Ds's. Oh, where did the days go...), and the decrease in portable devices (mostly in the West)

Edited on by Paulthevgnerd

Paulthevgnerd

gcunit

@DefHalan & @Xenocity

You don't see electronics manufacturers trying to merge mobile phones, sat navs, mp3 players, cameras, pdas, internet browsing, etc. etc..... Oh wait!

Just because previous systems may have tried it and failed, doesn't mean that the idea can't work or was even the reason those products failed.

The hub and portable wouldn't require each other, hence I said 'could be sold separately', but if they were designed with this idea at the forefront then efficiencies are bound to be found. Nintendo wouldn't be making two whole versions of each game - with practice, and hardware and OS designed to do it from the outset, I'm sure it could be streamlined quite nicely.

Nintendo's problem of late has been having to supply top quality first party titles across two platforms not designed to work together. This would cut their workload and make their products more attractive. Why buy Mario Kart 7 and Mario Kart 8 (or only buy one of them but be restricted in where you can play it) when you can just buy Mario Kart N(ine)X and play it anywhere?

If Nintendo wants to prevail something had to change, because Nintendo's tried and tested system of running two completely separate systems hasn't worked out too well this generation. Times change and ideas of not merging two revenue streams only work for so long.

But as I've said, the hardware can still operate independent of each other, but they are designed to make the process of producing a game that can run well on both as easy as possible.

Merge the software streams and suddenly Nintendo-produced games are suddenly at the top of the game charts again. Would work wonders for publicity and reputation.

Use the 'ignore' button, it works.

Currently playing: Rocket League; Splatoon 2; Super Mario Odyssey; Xenoblade Chronicles; Fire Emblem; Suikoden; Kirby Triple Deluxe; ICO; Gravity Rush; Ratchet & Clank; Red Faction: Guerilla; Fez; FIFA 18

Nothing is true; Everything is permitted.

Paulthevgnerd

I don't know why we are arguing over this when I just made the point that NX is most likely a singular device. To quote Iwata: "I mentioned that Nintendo is currently developing a new dedicated video game system codenamed "NX."". Yes, "family" is singular, meaning the NX would be too if it was a platform of devices, but note how in this quotes (and countless others), the NX is made to be a single device, such as singular words like "system".

Edited on by Paulthevgnerd

Paulthevgnerd

DefHalan

@Paulthevgnerd: I find most kids play using those devices out of convenience. The device is around and they are bored so they play a game. When I was a kid my parents had to buy devices that entertained me because they didn't have any devices that were convenient. I am not sure what the future of Handheld gaming will go but I do not believe it is gone. The next hardware iteration will have to be something unexpected and deliver an experience that mobile just cannot. The two screen gameplay isn't enough.

People keep saying the Xbox One doesn't have Backwards Compatibility.
I don't think they know what Backwards Compatibility means...

3DS Friend Code: 2621-2786-9784 | Nintendo Network ID: DefHalan

DefHalan

@gcunit: If the Home Console and Handheld console don't require each other, then it isn't a Hybrid Device. Sharing games across the devices is smart and something Nintendo is already working towards. It has its ups and downs and I don't think it will eliminate the need for two versions of games. Certain experiences work better as portable and some work better for at home. But the conversation was about a Hybrid device and if the machines do not require each other then it is not a Hybrid device.

People keep saying the Xbox One doesn't have Backwards Compatibility.
I don't think they know what Backwards Compatibility means...

3DS Friend Code: 2621-2786-9784 | Nintendo Network ID: DefHalan

gcunit

3DS can already be used as a controller on Wii U (though only in Smash currently, for some reason). If Wii U had a cart slot and correct inards/emulator, then we'd be half way there already. Then just merge the OS and have the games coded to run on either and Bob's your uncle. I don't get how that seems so technically improbable.

Use the 'ignore' button, it works.

Currently playing: Rocket League; Splatoon 2; Super Mario Odyssey; Xenoblade Chronicles; Fire Emblem; Suikoden; Kirby Triple Deluxe; ICO; Gravity Rush; Ratchet & Clank; Red Faction: Guerilla; Fez; FIFA 18

Nothing is true; Everything is permitted.

gcunit

DefHalan wrote:

@gcunit: If the Home Console and Handheld console don't require each other, then it isn't a Hybrid Device. Sharing games across the devices is smart and something Nintendo is already working towards. It has its ups and downs and I don't think it will eliminate the need for two versions of games. Certain experiences work better as portable and some work better for at home. But the conversation was about a Hybrid device and if the machines do not require each other then it is not a Hybrid device.

Hence I said above to call it a 2-in-1 if you prefer. Or call it whatever you like.

Edited on by gcunit

Use the 'ignore' button, it works.

Currently playing: Rocket League; Splatoon 2; Super Mario Odyssey; Xenoblade Chronicles; Fire Emblem; Suikoden; Kirby Triple Deluxe; ICO; Gravity Rush; Ratchet & Clank; Red Faction: Guerilla; Fez; FIFA 18

Nothing is true; Everything is permitted.

DefHalan

gcunit wrote:

DefHalan wrote:

@gcunit: If the Home Console and Handheld console don't require each other, then it isn't a Hybrid Device. Sharing games across the devices is smart and something Nintendo is already working towards. It has its ups and downs and I don't think it will eliminate the need for two versions of games. Certain experiences work better as portable and some work better for at home. But the conversation was about a Hybrid device and if the machines do not require each other then it is not a Hybrid device.

Hence I said above to call it a 2-in-1 if you prefer.

With your Smash Bros example, you are looking at increasing production costs and lowering possible income. That is not going to work for a company. They would need to basically make and test two different versions of a game to run off of two different platforms but only selling 1 copy for those two platforms.

People keep saying the Xbox One doesn't have Backwards Compatibility.
I don't think they know what Backwards Compatibility means...

3DS Friend Code: 2621-2786-9784 | Nintendo Network ID: DefHalan

Paulthevgnerd

I'm fairly certain Nintendo said that they didn't want to do a hybrid, but as we say, rather a family of systems with similar OS, architecture and software. Imagine gba and gamecube taken to the next level. I do know I made that claim up there about it being singular, but I do hope that there will be a NX handheld and NX console at the same time, so we can have cool Pokemon cloud apps for the console (as hinted by Pokemon company), like the Pokemon bank, Pokemon ranch, or the R/S/E and FR/LG bank system that the Gamecube had, but of course, taken to the next level.

And as posted before, Nintendo has even diagrammed sepearte future home and portable consoles.

Edited on by Paulthevgnerd

Paulthevgnerd

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