Topic: The Nintendo Switch Thread

@BruceCM I didn't know that, cheers. I've picked a perfect time to start playing it then.

This thread is only 50 comments away from reaching 50,000. It's gone from an NX speculation thread to one of the most popular forum threads in video game history.

@NEStalgia
It did, but my point is that it did only after BotW gave the Switch a chance to breathe in the first place.

@Grumblevolcano
Huh? You said "just as important" as BotW. That's pretty different from just "important."

@JaxonH Never said I don't like Bayo. I do. And I'd agree that it probably has the most sophisticated battle system of its genre. But you also kind of summarized the issue that exists with it. The point isn't really "I like/dislike Bayo", the point originally is that it isn't really going to be a significant release for Nintendo as it's a very hardcore-niche it appeals to and can't really reach much beyond that. A big part of that is that it's what you described, and more specifically, it's a pure arcade machine game. The trouble is pure arcade games aren't very popular anymore. They haven't been very popular for a long time, which is precisely why Sega's hardware failed - it was dependent upon selling the arcade experience at home, and, outside Japan, the arcade experience was no longer sought after. Not so ironically, Sega was the original publisher of Bayo, completing the circle.

Bayo plays like what happens when you cross a BUMP and a Fighter. Bad Dudes x SF. It's kind of a genre mash-up anyway. A "story fighter" where the mechanics are pure fighting game but instead of being human competitive it's all dramatic AI fights. Which is cool, and it's great that it has its fanbase. But ultimately, I think the trouble Nintendo's going to have with that series is that nobody can sink a full budget as a "major release" into a game that's super ultra limited niche without reaching a bigger audience. At some point the bean counting is going to look and say "why aren't we just letting indies tackle this genre while we spend that money on something with a much bigger return.

But also to be fair to the idea that Bayo could be more, Bayo was always intended as a spiritual successor of DMC (note I say DMC, not DmC....DmC was more like a game that aped Bayo aping DMC), and against that backdrop, Bayo improved the fighting, but removed most of the rest of the game.

My own opinion, there's a 0% chance that Nintendo spending "big game budget" money and attention on a super niche seller again is going to happen after 3. Either Bayo has to expand into something with more appeal while not becoming something that upsets the fans of what it began as, or Bay becomes the next Metroid/Mother that vanishes for a decade + at a time. OTOH with the lengthy dev cycle on 3, I'm optimistic they might be doing just that.

There's certainly a market for (in a gatekeeping way) skill based combat, given the popularity of Soulsborne, but they also add a lot more than just the combat which I think most people tend to be looking for. It's not that I dislike the concept of an arcade game. It's that most people seem to and aren't waving money around for it no matter how much critics may love it. And when Bayo comes from source material (DmC) that already had more gameplay systems involved, Bayo does come across as a half step backward after its step forward.

Ownership of the brand still belongs to Sega, if I'm not mistaken, and unless 3 sells like crazy, unexpectedly, I can't imagine expense-averse Nintendo ever buying it. Buying in was an Iwata thing to begin with, and Bayo lacks synergy with Toads and is hard to build theme parks out of. So who knows what roller coaster it shall follow after this. The way Sega's doing things it might become a breakfast cereal owned by General Mills.

What we do know, is the game's subtitle. Bayonetta 3: Drifting Joy.

A lot of games announced for Switch over the w/e, BTW .... In case anyone here wasn't watching, since it was mostly PC games that are also coming to everything else

@Ralizah It's like you haven't seen fan reaction to Death Stranding. Confusing nonsensical scripts with terrible writing are all the rage these days!

I seriously watched handfuls of gameplay of that, saw cutscenes, had no idea what was going on still. Read a full synopsis of the story beginning to end, and STILL have no idea WTF I just read. But all hail Kojima!

Bayo is similar. Between 1 & 2 you have no idea what the story is until you read a synopsys after. And then it still makes little sense but at least you know what the characters are supposed to be. Once you mix thousand year time travel and cross dimensions into the story, you're know you're in for trouble. "The enemy is the friend who is my future self helping me that is the past version of my present, and I'm my own grandma!" is pretty much the theme of Bayo's story.

@Heavyarms55 Yeah, like I said to Jax above, Bayo's problem is that it plays like a game designed for arcade machines in the late 90's. Which is partially because it really is a Sega game designed not long after the late 90's when they were still in pure-arcade mode. And there's nothing wrong with loving a 90's type arcade game, it's a forgotten niche, for sure. The problem is what company wants to sink full budgets into what's basically an arcade game in 2020 when not many people care much about arcade games outside Japan? To Bayo fans, it's the biggest release of a year. To everyone else it's an amusing distraction. I think the game either needs to expand into something "bigger" to meet home gaming expectations, or it needs to shrink into "side project/indie" budgets and become a less aspirational series that caters only to an arcade purist hardcore niche. Soulsborne stole the thunder of a "pure action" game and wrapping it into an RPG (with even worse storytelling and blander setpieces )

@NEStalgia By the way you describe Bayonetta's story, it makes it sound like they could turn it into a redneck adventure, once inspiration runs dry after the upcoming third outing. The only thing they'd need to add is marrying a cousin...

But all kidding aside, this anime movie will give a pretty good idea of the main story line, for people that are new to Bayonetta, or for those who can't make sense of the story by means of the games:

@NEStalgia I'll don't really get why people act Bayo's story is so confusing. I understood both games on my first playthrough. It's not like there's a giant cast of characters to keep track of, only about 5 per game, each of whom acts upon a single main motivation. Sure there's time travel, but it's pretty easy to follow compared to most examples of it.

@NEStalgia
That was a pretty good response, one I [mostly] agree with.

But I still contend it's a "big release". As big as Astral Chain, Marvel Ultimate Alliance 3, etc. Those are big releases. They're not giant evergreen multi million sellers, but they're definitely not small releases either. Games like Bayonetta 3 are high budget, polished and well received.

Which again, I think the unanimous reception is proof enough it doesnt need to change, and that enough people love it how it is. I'm not saying I oppose what @Ralizah suggested. In fact I'm all in favor of better story and what not if that's what they want to do. That's cool. But story was always just a means to an end in this game, much like Mario. It's there to give you a reason to fight and provide flashy cutscene breathers in between, not actually try to provide good story telling. If they want to change that and make it more "serious" then... ok, I guess I'm not opposed to that, but I don't think it needs it either. It definitely is arcadey action and there should be room for that.

And not saying it shouldn't evolve over time either. But I do wish to stress how good Bayonetta 2 was received, almost won GotY that year even. Most people who play it love it. Not everyone, but the reviews and feedback speaks for itself. Which is all I'm saying. Its hailed as a masterpiece as is my most of its fanbase. So evolve, improve, that's all fine, but at the end of the day, I love its formula as is. I like its story that's more comical than serious. I like the flashy cutscenes and I love the game is all about its combat (and exploration, lest we forget theres a mix of both, just to break up the set pieces).

Not every game needs super intriguing story or sidequests. Some games can just be action games. And if that means 1 million ballpark sales then so be it. People who arent looking for just action have plenty of other options. That's why other games are made that try different things. But this game, this one game, is the one pure action game out there now. And I dont want to see that Nier-ified or Astral chain-ified. Those games are great. But I dont want them in my Bayonetta. I want my Bayo to be Bayo and those games to do the other stuff. Theres room for both.

edit: my comment apparently didn’t add to the discussion.

@ThanosReXXX When the story needs a companion movie to make clear the story because playing the actual game doesn't actually make it clear, there's definitely a writer that should be cleaning toilets instead. It's not the first game to fall to that trap, though.

@link3710 I couldn't even figure out the whole Baldur arc without reading a summary of it. And that required re-reading it a few times thinking "WTF" the whole time. Sure, Bayo, Jeanne, Joe Pesci....they're easy enough to figure out.

link3710 "It all makes sense." Everyone else" It doesn't make any sense", JaxonH "It doesn't need to make sense, it's pure action." @Ryu_Niiyama "Here's deep over-thought deep meta fanfic scenarios based on low level explanations about the complexities of the overarching universe."

@JaxonH Bayo's certainly a big budget release (much to Nintendo's chagrin.) I'm just not sure it's a "big release" either to Nintendo's perspective, or to the overall customer base. But that assumes it really is more of the same arcade type game without getting the BotW/FE3H/ACNH rebirth treatment. Nintendo does seem to be in the habit of reinventing franchises this gen. It might make waves if they really re-imagine it. That doesn't mean it needs to be Nier (which is an RPG with some modest fighting on top), or Astral Chain which is an adventure/action/BUMP with some trivial fighting moves thrown in. But IMO, Bayo could use to reconnect with it's DMC origins and put a bit more emphasis on exploration to break it up a bit more. The overall feel and pacing of the series is similar, but DMC had a lot more exploration involved, despite still being primarily non-stop set-piece action, that gave a richer experience as a "console game" rather than a Sega-style on-rails action game. Not that the Sega style on rails action game doesn't have a place, but no company can spend on such a game the way Bayonetta spends cash. Keeping it profitable, and/or growing is hard to manage if it remains, ultimately, a "Dreamcast game." Cool as Dreamcast is. That's why Sega was going to let the IP die to begin with. The only reason we still have it is Iwata was a risk taker in a risk averse company. I think they can definitely make it "bigger" without making it "worse" for those that love it for what it does best. Assuming nobody says something on Twitter to Kamiya.

@NEStalgia The movie was just a standalone effort, not a "we made this movie because" kind of thing...
It was simply tying in to the popularity of the character, at the time.

I have to agree with @link3710, though: the story is not confusing at all. It IS a bit of a roller coaster sometimes, so you do have to keep up with it, but it isn't nearly as bad as you make it seem.

I'm assuming you're calling it a "Dreamcast game" because of it, according to you, being more of an arcade game? Don't agree with that at ALL.

I also don't agree with the supposed reasons that Sega would have let the IP die. There's no proof for that at all. And in my personal opinion, it is a MUCH better series than Devil May Cry, a series that has already had to reinvent itself, due to some misfires/lesser iterations. The Bayonetta games may be less in number, but at least they're all solid, and highly imaginative games.

If you have to point someone to external sources in order to make sense of the plot, then something is seriously wrong with the writing in your game. I feel the same way about Dark Souls and Bloodborne whenever someone counters the criticism that those games are almost completely devoid of any sort of driving narrative by pointing to lengthy lore videos on youtube.

@NEStalgia In fairness, Kojima's brand of nonsensical storytelling has its charms, at least. He really tries to go for the jugular with these big socio-political themes, but without the people who helped him in MGS 1 - 3, the scripts lack direction and start to feel weird and pretentious. But there's still some enjoyment to be had there.

To be fair, Dark Souls is better than most games based purely on the game on its own. The fact that people found interesting lore by trying to figure out vague puzzle pieces is at worst, of no negative consequence. (this is also exactly my opinion of the Zelda timeline)

But that being said, I didn't find Bayonetta to be too high up there for confusing narratives. It's just not good. It tries (and occasionally succeeds) at using comedy and everything over the top to pretend the story is ironically bad I think, but its way too close to this exact type of bad video game story to work. Both Bayonettas (especially 2) and Vanquish are probably better games if you skip a lot of the cutscenes tbh.

@Ralizah Imagine if Citizen Kane had to be explained by a bunch of high school kids making videos in their bedrooms using whiteboards and similes.

Kojima....start to feel weird and pretentious? At what point, exactly were they not weird and pretentious? Well, ok, you qualified MGS1-3...ok...yeah they were fine. But that was before Kojima was KOJIMA walking on a pillar of light. He jumped the shark with MGS4, and since then he's surfed on the shark atop a whale, skidding across an aircraft carrier onto an artificial island populated by sentient mangoes at the end of a rainbow. And then after that it just started to get weird...

His socio-political themes make no sense because he never gets to the point of them and ends up meandering in self-referential nonsense that tries to be glorified as "arthouse" when it's really just pretentious drivel that stopped having socio-political merit right around the half-way point of the opening credits.

The can be enjoyed as interesting concepts, but I can't help but feel the interesting concept would have been far more interesting if it were written and directed by somebody half-way competent who could actually follow a narrative sequence that does indeed arrive at a subject. If he were to rewrite The Lord of the Rings, the entire thing would be retold from the perspective of Frodo's lost finger, but you wouldn't find out that was the case until the 4th false ending.

tbh, your idea sounds more interesting to me than Lord of the Rings. Not as good almost certainly, but more interesting.

Sentient mangos.

@Ralizah
Your story point is exactly what I was saying a while ago in the Final Fantasy thread about FF XV. Don't remember if you were a part of that, sorry, but I feel the same way: It's not cool if making sense of your game's story is contingent upon you buying books/comics or viewing lore videos and stuff on the internet. If you want people to enjoy your game's story, then put the story in the game.

Edit removing earlier comment as it is a thread derail. My apologies.

Played some Borderlands Pre-Sequel at work today in tabletop mode...

That right there is the embodiment of Switch gaming. It looks absolutely gorgeous, even more so than Borderlands 2. It might be the best looking handheld game I’ve ever laid eyes on. And the game is so good and so addictive, sliding the joycon into the grip and playing with gyro feels like a better home console experience at work, than normal consoles do at home.

Ever since May 29th I’ve been gaming like a maniac. They just released the perfect combination of gameplay-focused games that I’m totally into. I don’t recall having a two week period of gaming like this in quite some time. Just nonstop- Bioshock then Borderlands 2 then Xenoblade then Persona 4 Golden then Borderlands Pre-Sequel then Shantae then more Borderlands 2 then XCOM 2 then more Persona then more Xenoblade, even a little darts and Yahtzee in Club House... I feel rejeuvenated. So many “great games” out there that just don’t do it for me, but this lot here has been like hitting the jackpot.

I think platform also plays a key role. I’ve gamed more frequently on Switch than I ever did on Wii U or 3DS (barring my Monster Hunter binges, but even then I don’t think it compares). And I’ve gamed more frequently on PC than I ever did on PS4/X1. For a multitude of reasons but, notably the free online, the gyro, the GameCube/Wii back catalog, and games just looking/running even better so it always feels like a treat using it.

And moving to digital also played a key role, I think. Easier access, less barrier between you and an impulse to play... that matters. I’ve observed a notable uptick. Also, using a proper headset has made a difference. It was such an integral part of the gaming experience I was missing out on. Just adding that aspect into the gaming experience makes it more appealing which ultimately leads me to play games more often.

With Trails of Cold Steel III and Paper Mario right around the corner, it seems the binge will continue. There’s other games too, Burnout and Catherine Full Body (which was made by the Persona team, something to consider if you’d like to show support on the platform), but I already know it’s gonna be Trails III and Paper Mario that really command the hours. Idk. Catherine may surprise me, we’ll see. If the story can get its hooks in and I play on the easy difficulty so the puzzles don’t frustrate, it might command some hours too.

@rallydefault Probably not, because I never bought XV after playing the demo and thoroughly "Nope"ing out of that entire experience, but it has been rather fascinating watching S-E try to cobble together something approaching a coherent narrative with years worth of post-release DLC, a movie, etc. That game was such a mismanaged cluster&%$# from day one, I swear to God.

@NEStalgia Admittedly, I've had limited exposure to Kojima post-MGS3. I never owned a PS3, so I didn't get to play MGS4. MGS V... I've owned it for years, but never got around to it, aside from playing Ground Zeroes when I first got my PS4 in 2014 or so. Death Stranding intrigued me initially, but the more footage of it released, the more I lost interest (an asynchronous co-op post-apocalyptic package delivery sim that puts Kojima's Hollywood worship on full display with endless celebrity appearances and cameos and an almost painful lack of self-awareness... yeah...).