Topic: The Nintendo Switch Thread

& perhaps for people that could afford one big game a month, not 5 or more, @Grumblevolcano.... OK, the fans will remember to get games later but plenty won't do so, particularly if there's enough coming out

@Grumblevolcano
Sorry, but there's no way Mario Kart in April was just as important as BotW at launch. Just no way. And I LOVE this Mario Kart and bought it on Wii U and Switch. It was an excellent follow-up, but BotW and its amazing reviews is a huge reason why the Switch was able to get off to a good start and even had a chance at turning into an all-around success. And for as good as Mario Kart is, it's not exactly the type of title that's gonna lure in people who weren't already interested in owning a Nintendo console. Zelda and specifically BotW has a more "mature" (I do say that half smirking, but whatever) vibe, and that's what Nintendo needed so badly. BotW nailed the open-world genre at exactly the right moment.

If Switch launched with 1-2 Switch, Snipperclips, and Bomberman... we could very well be dealing with a very different reality for Nintendo. Nintendo was struggling near the end of Wii U. Seriously struggling. I remember us discussing whether or not they were gonna have to go third-party, like seriously discussing. And if Switch, as cool as the form factor is, would have launched with nothing more recognizable than Bomberman and people had to wait a month to get a Wii U port in Mario Kart, and all that was on the heels of a dumpster fire of a console (Wii U), yea... people would not have just been willing to wait and give Nintendo the benefit of the doubt. Switch would have followed the exact Wii U trajectory - sell out as launch (cuz everything does), but then stock quickly builds up once the hardcore fans has had their say. Public opinion starts and goes further south, and the console is pretty much doomed. Just look at Wii U. That thing had some AWESOME games later in its life, but nothing could save it once public opinion was decided in those initial months.

@Ralizah
My friend Anthony at work is about as casual a gamer as they come. He bought a Switch for Rocket League, bought Pokemon and Animal Crossing. He doesn’t do in-depth core games at all really.

Yet I gave him Bayonetta 2 for Christmas 2 years ago along with DKC Tropical Freeze, and he said he beat that entire game and told me it was downright amazing,

So if it was approachable enough for him, someone who can’t even get past the first stage of tropical freeze without trouble, and enjoyed it as much as he did, I think it’s perfectly approachable. Its definitely not highly technical. In fact, you can button mash your way through that game and do all kinds of awesome combos as a result, and I’m pretty sure he did. Yet there is also depth and specific combos there for those who choose to develop their skill set. It’s the best of both worlds.

The game is meant, intentionally, to be high octane action. Everything else besides that takes a backseat. And that’s how it should be. There are other games that focus on other things but that’s not Bayonetta’s thing. Bayonetta is an adrenaline rush from start to finish. And it shouldn’t change it’s identity to try to chase different directions of other games. There’s nothing wrong with Bayonetta.

For the record though, Bayonetta 3 is a major release, for the habitual gamers that actually follow the best games and not just the casual mass sellers. I don’t think anybody’s going to find it any less exhilarating just because 10 million football fans didn’t pick it up also. Its predecessor is one of the highest rated games of its generation, so people should rightfully be excited for such a release.

Sounds like the time McDonalds tried to sell salads.

Yea I wouldnt take away the VERY reason many love bayonetta so much (action non-stop). Im not in it for the deep story. I'm there for the mass destruction, combos, nasty language, over the top boss battles, and bayos awesome personality. I feel if it tried to be anything different, it would lose the whole point of the game. I think there's an easy mode too to make it a little more approachable. I was skepticle myself until i played the first few missions and I loved it from that point on. While it may not need to sell 10s of millions(copies) I wouldnt want it to if it meant mainstreaming it.

@JaxonH Right, because "football fans" are the ones buying up all of those copies of Mario Kart 8 Deluxe, Splatoon 2, Fire Emblem: Three Houses, Breath of the Wild, and so on, right?

Also, I'm glad your casual friend enjoyed it, but it's very weird to act like his experience with the game is representative of how most people would receive it. I have "casual" friends that sometimes surprise me by liking a more niche property, but I don't take that as confirmation that the game would play so well with everyone.

Anyway, the series doesn't have to change, you're right, but I also doubt it's going to attract a larger audience if it stays the way it is. Some games just target their niche and are fine with a few hundred thousand copies sold. And you know what? Good for them. I'm a big advocate of games targeting their 'base,' since I think smaller games with more unusual or niche game design increases the variety out there overall. But I think the series would be doing better than it is on Switch (as I recall, Bayo 2 on Switch barely sold better than the Wii U version, and the latest numbers I could find have it under 0.5 million copies sold) if the presentation and game design were improved. I mean, sure, you can drunkenly stumble your way through its combat by button mashing, and get horrible scores, much like you can with fighting games, but I don't find that fun, and I'm sure a lot of people feel the same way. Combat is fine in and of itself, but it it's the only element on offer in the game, it gets old quickly.

And it's not like Bayonetta is the odd (wo)man out here. Most of Platinum's action games disappear off the charts almost as soon as they release.

It's certainly interesting to me that Astral Chain, an exclusive and new I.P. at that, managed to sell over one million copies, which Bayonetta 1 and 2 couldn't manage to muster across two different platforms, and bundling together two different games. And even then, probably a significant chunk of the Switch version's sales were repeat purchases. AND Bayonetta was featured in Smash.

It's fine to want more of the same from Bayonetta. But don't be surprised if its sales are in line with what "more of the same" entails. I play a lot of niche series and don't really want them to change, but the difference is that it doesn't bother me when these games don't sell millions of copies. It comes with the territory.

Fire Emblem's sales only improved when the series evolved, and I expect the same will be true of Bayonetta.

It'll be interesting to see how Bayo 3 performs, though, since she has appeared in Smash since, and Nintendo is likely to market the hell out of the game. If it STILL can't clear a million sales by that point... well, I think you've seen the ceiling for Bayonetta's appeal as a pure character action experience.

I agree with grumble. Timing matters a lot in terms of how the year plays out. 20 knock out first party games in november is an amazing november but if there was nothing else all year, the year itself would feel bland.

And i agree on bayo with ralizah. I like the game, but it's ultimately a shallow package with deep fighting mechanics that make it more like a fighting game...astral chain and nier really up the ante. Even devil may cry had more "game"behind it than just endless battles, so bayo remains inaccessible and niche oriented. It's probably the best of deeply technical story fighters, but as a total game the worst of Kamiyas productions in the genre. Not really a knock on the game itself, but kamiya can and does make more diverse experiences in that genre. I'm hoping 3 with the long dev time taps into that.

And i don't think "one major release every month from sony" is the main thing. Ms only released a few total last gen. But they're were multiple things releasing on the system every month that may interest anyone. That's what nintendo has to get better at. Not first party but something to be excited about. That's where they need stronger partners, and where 3ds shined. JP devs constantly had interesting stuff arriving. Sony has been dryer than nintendo first party last 2 years. But PS owners had new exciting content arriving monthly in droves via AAAs etc. when Nintendo goes dry there's just crickets. That's their blind spot.

Though
I don't think smash made nintendo arrogant. I think it solidified their conservative strategy of one big evergreen game per year is "enough" to generate the sales they want and schedule their dev cycles accordingly.

@rallydefault kart is the single best selling ip except pokemon. Botw generated great buzz, but kart sales ate it alive. You can bet kart moved a LOT of hardware.

@rallydefault That's why I said "as important". If Switch launched without BotW, we probably would've seen a different result for Switch but I think that would also have been true if MK8 Deluxe didn't launch in April 2017 and instead we got MK9 in like Spring 2019.

I'm not yet convinced that 2020 is going to be as bad a year for Nintendo as seems to be the mood. Yes it's June and we've had ACNH, XCDE and soon the Pokeomon DLC and that's kind of it, but just because Nintendo hasn't announced much beyond Paper Mario, doesn't mean nothing is coming.

I agree that the lack of knowing is a problem. Marketing is huge and you can't market games that haven't been announced. But Switch also has already one of the best game libraries perhaps ever, with a bunch of ever-green titles that continue to sell very well. Gems like BOTW, MK8DX, Pokemon, Smash and ACNH continue to make top 10 lists too.

@JaxonH tried warfare a couple times and it’s just not the same as COD. It’s an attempt that you are thankful someone is trying. Nothing has been able to scratch that itch. As far as borderlands it looks good and heard great things about it. I just am cautious about the rpg elements and how much time you have to put into the single player. Really thinking about hypercharged.

@Ralizah
Also, I'm glad your casual friend enjoyed it, but it's very weird to act like his experience with the game is representative of how most people would receive it

I don’t think it’s weird. He’s a perfect example case of someone who’s never played games like that before and had no problem with it whatsoever which shows that it’s not too challenging or technical for a casual gamer. That doesn’t mean every single person will take to it but it definitely makes a statement. And I think most people would take to it if they actually sat down and played it, problem is getting people to play the game in the first place because there’s so many other games out there that are more well-known. But that’s how it is for most games. That’s why most of the best games aren’t the mass media ones tens of millions of people have played. Why the best music isn’t the crap playing over the radio and why the best movies aren’t the Avatars and Titanics.

you can drunkenly stumble your way through its combat by button mashing, and get horrible scores, much like you can with fighting games, but I don't find that fun, and I'm sure a lot of people feel the same way

You can phrase it in a negative way but the genius of the game is being designed in such a way that you can feel like a bad ass even when you’re not. That’s what makes it so great. A game that is accessible to newcomers but has enough depth to keep even the most hard-core gamers striving to get better. I really can’t ask for more than that. I also think the majority of fighting game sales are from casual people who button mash, for the record. But most fighting games aren’t designed to cater to those who don’t know how to combo. Bayonetta is. There’s a clear difference between the two.

It's fine to want more of the same from Bayonetta. But don't be surprised if its sales are in line with what "more of the same" entails.

I mean, I’m ok with that. Really don’t care how much it sells (as long as it doesn’t bomb completely and jeopardize a new entry). It is of little consequence to me. I could be the only person on this planet that plays it, but that doesn’t change the fact it’s one of the highest rated games of the generation and arguably my favorite action game ever made, and for good reason. Besides which, it hasn’t done that bad, it just isn’t some huge marquee title. More like Metroid Prime, Astral Chain, etc. All considered big important releases for those in the know. And, it’s almost guaranteed that Bayonetta 3, a new title debuting on Switch like Astral Chain will land in the same ballpark. But whether it does or doesn’t doesn’t change the fact it’s still probably going to be one of the best video games of this generation, regardless. If it’s hit a ceiling then it’s hit a ceiling... oh well. Most of my favorite games I’ve ever played in my life are games that sold 1 million copies or less. Appealing to a wider audience doesn’t always mean better. The only thing they can do to appeal to a wider audience without sacrificing what the game is is make it with flashier graphics and actually market it on a successful system, and I’m 100% on board with that.

@NEStalgia
Not every game is for every person, but the perfect 10s across the board would contest your assertion that it’s not as good. It’s combat is noticeably better than any of those games. If you’re just not looking for a game that’s pure action, that’s fine. Not every type of game is for every person, and everyone has their preferences, but there is nothing objectively inferior about pure action over a game that tries to do multiple things any more than a pure platformer would be inferior to a game like Ratchet and Clank that tries multiple things. They just are different types of games. But the combat in Bayonetta is perfection, the pinnacle of game design. And for people who want a game that focuses on that exemplary combat and trademark witch time and doesn’t want their experience diluted with a hodgepodge of other mechanics, Bayonetta is pure adrenaline in the veins. Nothing else compares.

Bayonetta is the embodiment of Platinum Games, one of the few pure action games left. And even if most games of the genre have branched out to do other things in order to try to be more popular, there’s room in this market for at least one pure action game that’s better than all the rest. I can’t stand the “appealing to a wider audience” mantra that is homogenizing all our games into a melting pot of genres in the name of popularity. There’s nothing wrong with other action games that do something different. I love W101 and Astral Chain, and Nier, from what I played, was good too. They all try something different and I appreciate that. But I don’t want my Bayonetta to try to be like them. If somebody’s not into pure action games, then they can play a different one. But Bayonetta is for the (and I don’t mean this in a gatekeeping way, but) the hardcore action gamers. The ones who want a pure experience because they’re in it for the skill based combat. Like Sin & Punishment as an on-rails shooter- that’s the whole point of the game, from start to finish, and that’s what makes it so great. The fact it is designed in such a way that anyone can still enjoy it even if they don’t get good ranks is just icing on the cake. If that’s not your thing there’s a lot of other action games you can play. Maybe one of the less pure ones will catch your fancy.

@Heavyarms55 We did have FE's major expansion, Smash stuff, Playhouse Games, Pokemon Mystery Dungeon DX, and TMS#FE too, plus some significant 3rd party releases (Trials of Mana, Bioshock/Borderlands/XCOM, Megaman Zero/ZX, Burnout Paradise, Catherine Full Body, Trails of Cold Steel III, Darksiders Genesis, Atlier Dusk Trilogy, Spongebob, The Outer Worlds, Minecraft Dungeons, Wonderful 101, TT Isle of Man 2, Munch's Oddysey, Streets of Rage 4, Panzer Dragoon Remake, Metro Collection, Rune Factory 4 Special, Story of Seasons ) and a plethora of really good indies and older ports a la DMC 3, Ty or Star Wars so it's not even like it's been as barren as that sounds. For the vast majority of people out there with a Switch, they've never had access to at least some of the major titles released this year in addition to the brand new titles that are coming out.

@Ralizah Honestly, I stumbled through it like a drunken idiot the first time I played through and I loved it. Wasn't until my second playthrough that I got anything better than stone trophies on the majority of levels.

@link3710 We did, you're absolutely right. I was just refering to the biggest titles I could think of and was too lazy to list every one.

I don't think Bayonetta needs to completely change what it is to succeed. But Platinum, could, I don't know, hire a decent writer so that the script for Bayo 3 isn't confusing and weird like in previous games? Feature a bit more narrative build up around its frequent set-pieces? Introduce likable characters (because, based on my experience with Bayo 2, snarky kid in a hood, fat guy who swears a lot, and the ambiguously gay main duo don't cut it for me)? Include more interesting environments to explore? Maybe throw in some puzzle-solving elements, or anything, really, to break up the tedium of endless fights? Feature more in-depth and well-integrated battle tutorials? Include new types of rewards to incentivize really learning the battle system?

Properties can and should evolve while retaining the core of their identity. And I'm just not convinced that Bayo's core identity is being a battle system and series of abstract set-pieces in want of a decent game to star in.

I feel like every series has its hardcore purists who don't want it to change at all, though.

So many games on Switch are defying arbitrary game design traditions that were holding their respective series back. I hope Bayonetta 3 is the BotW, Super Mario Odyssey, or Three Houses of its series.

Just a quick question, do.the coins you get for making eShop purchases expire? Like do I have a certain amount of time to use?

@Tasuki I believe your gold coins will expire a year after getting them. The easiest way to handle this is just automatically using them to snag a discount on software you happen to download. There's no real reason to save them up, after all, unless you're going for one of the terrible My Nintendo rewards.

@Ralizah I'm inclined to agree. I bought Bayonetta 1 and 2 because of all the hype I saw for the games on this site. But I just didn't get drawn into the games that much. They feel like a one trick pony that, for the people who like this trick are gonna really really like it, but for everyone else they are "just" okay. I actually do find the characters and setting interesting but they don't really do that much with them. The whole games are pretty much just the fighting.

Which I can see why that would appeal to certain audiences. I know there are people out there who prefer old style games that were just game without much fluff or flavor beyond that. But that's not really me. I like having an interesting story, environment and characters driving me to progress to see what comes next. Action just for the action's sake tends to lose my interest after only a few hours.

@Ralizah Ok cool. I was just wondering cause right now there's nothing I really want to purchase. (Just bought a bunch of stuff during the sale) and I just wanted to make sure that I had awhile before I lost them.

Baldurs Gate 3 looks phenomenal!

I just started playing Larian's previous game, Divinity Original Sin 2 the other day and while I'm still struggling to get to grips with what's what, I can already recognise its brilliance.

I wonder if there's any chance of BG3 coming to Switch?

Maybe, @OorWullie ..... In case you didn't know, DoS 2 got a free content update over the weekend, too! In case you didn't see the actual show