Topic: The Nintendo Switch Thread

@JaxonH
Hefty price tag tho.

Oh, and those Steam Controller haptic pads are going to be interchangeable with other parts, such as analog sticks you can buy separately. I also heard of a dock that will allow it to connect to the tv.

@wafflesngravy
Ya.

Portable PC gaming is cost prohibitive and thus remains a niche. Mass appeal portable gaming systems like Nintendo Switch (and before that, PS Vita) leverage $300 and under price tags, well known branding, combined with a “pick up and play, everything works” design and exclusive software to sell millions of units.

Unfortunately, running current AAA PC games on a handheld is an expensive endeavor, and we’re only just now finally reaching the point where technology is making this possible. It’s great to see more competition in the space though.

GPD Win 2 MAX has also been leaked, and will potentially be designed to compete with the Smach Z. Switch Pro will likely release in the same time frame and will remain the best value overall for console quality portable gaming.

I don't think labels such as Indies or AAA are very helpful. None of them have a clear definition.

As some examples, are unravel and ori indie or AAA? They are both backed by a large publisher. Or something like civ VI or XCOM? What about goat simulator or cites skylines? How about Cadence of Hyrule?

Or my latest addiction, satisfactory, which have a large handcrafted map and beautiful visuals that rivals quite a lot of games IMHO.

None of those games comes even close to the budget of for example anthem. I wouldn't be surprised if anthem have a bigger marketing budget then the others combined total budgets. But they are all great games in their own right.

It is also in the smaller studios I see most innovation. See the latest sim city vs cities skylines. The bigger publishers are afraid of innovation, they want a risk free returns of investment.

Overall I think people hang up to much on labels and try to shove everything in them. Jrpgs are another good example of labels that can mean anything.

AAA or Not is doesn't matter for me.
Even there are some Non AAA games looks better for me.
They are Hidden gems in my eyes.

Argh, you guys have so much I wanted to respond to, but just no time! I'll just respond to @Ralizah for now.

FWIW, while we disagree on the budget games thing, I couldn't agree more about Dark Souls/Bloodborne. You've got that one spot on

It's interesting that despite the very poor production quality and the very poorly conceived battle system (apparently some people do enjoy it...but it's a very poorly conceived system) base mostly on it's "artistic" value of story, subversiveness, dynamic outcomes etc. I'm going to put my Miyamoto hat on here and agree with him. Which is unusual on this topic because I do value grand adventures of exploration and interesting characters. But in this case, I think the Miyamoto approach is important. It tilts into the "games as art" debate. But in this case, I'm viewing games as a commercial entertainment product. It has to be fun. It has to be well designed. It's ultimately a toy to play with. It's a technology product. Perhaps that's a key difference between the "really" indie stuff that you seem to like and the normal budget stuff. The "really" indie stuff is hipster-arthouse, like Cannes films (which I also thoroughly despise, though I don't think much of any cinema these days.) Whereas the proper budget stuff is entertaining toys. (Again including things like Dust, Steamworld, etc.) Story is all fine and good but unilke a 45 minute film, I have to play through the game, and if that doesn't function smoothly and enjoyably, or at least get out of the way and be kind of simplistic, the game is just not fun.

But if we're going to include things on a low budget that serve their purpose, why the backlash on Angry Birds. I'll go out and say Angry Birds is a superior video game to Undertale, and significantly so. Undertale is more "arty" for a certain audience (namely, latte sipping hipsters ), as an "art piece" it's certainly more interesting. But it's a video game, it has to be a product. If it wants to be art too, that's great, but it still has to fulfill it's obligations as a manufactured product first. Undertale really falls short on that. Most of the pixel art games do. But at least most pixel art games focus on gameplay-first, even if primitively so. As such, Angry Birds deserves no less status than any other indie on Switch. It's a very well designed, puzzle/action game. It controls tightly for the controls its designed for, fits the medium, plays well, and has an addictive mechanic. Which is more than can be said for Undertale. Speaking of artificial gatekeeping, pot meet kettle. Suddenly because it's mobile it's now not a "real game" but low budget garage games that appear on Switch are "art." To me those two are far more similar than any of them next to Snake Pass, or Monster Boy.

I'll remove games like Candy Crush from the mix because that's not really a game. It's a delivery system for addictive spending, more like a gambling machine. Still a game, but a very different category of the word "gaming."

But gain, low budget it low budget, and gain, we're not comparing to high budget specifically. This isn't about Blaster Master Zero vs. God of War 2018. We're comparing between games with a basic proper budget.

The problem with the low budget stuff is it's so incomplete. There's glaring holes they had neither the money, time, or manpower to fill, and it's obvious. There's a lack of polish and refinement across most of them. Or a lack of character and a complete generic-ness the toe resulting product. So many of the indies are barely adapted clones of existing games. "Inspired by Zelda, inspired by Fire Embling, fusion of Smash and Arms, Ghosts and Goblins inspired" So much of it is just derivative work from proper commercial products that have much more polish to them. It's a large amount of "we didn't invent it here syndrome." Which was common in the NES era, but that wasn't one of the highlights of the era worth duplicating. Sure Undertale then is the oppsotite of generic, but it has another problem: Insufficient resources/manpower/skilled workers to create a cohesive art style, well planned battle mechanics, or quality level design compatible with the state of technology of the year it was produced. I'm not saying it should have looked like Rage 2. I'm saying it should have at minimum looked like Chrono Trigger or SotN. Asking for a game to meet 20 year old standards shouldn't be a high bar to set, and a game that fails to do so deserves the scorn it may be given. Big RPG studios have staff of 10 or more spending months or years just designing battle systems. One guy in a garage isn't going to be able to put out a product of that caliber. It's objectively inferior as a result. Even if it has redeeming qualities that people value it for.

@JaxonH Because Darksiders, if the Switch version is like other versions, doesn't run at at constant FPS, it has tons of frame dips and disastrous frame pacing. It's not a Switch thing, it's the game. It's the same on X1X. Darksiders II is even worse with that.

That said, Nioh, I need performance mode....anything less the game gets me queasy. Forza Horizon 4, though, 30FPS high quality all day, every day. 60FPS on X1X just looks way worse to me.

@NEStalgia
Actually this version isn’t really like the other versions. No bugs, no screen tearing, no framerate issues (that I’ve noticed). It’s probably the best version of the game I’ve played, certainly on Nintendo platforms. The frame rate is pretty constant. If one mode was to vary a lot, it would probably be the performance mode rather than the quality. But honestly neither of them seem to fluctuate. It’s just noticeably smoother in performance mode when turning the camera.

That said, maybe it’s because of the side by side approach? With other games if you just fire them up and play at 30 FPS it feels normal... to me at least. When I fired this game up and started playing at 30 FPS it also felt normal. But then, when I switched to the other mode and switched back, that’s when I noticed. Having said that, I’ve been playing on the high-quality mode for the past hour and it feels perfectly fine again. Think it’s just that initial 5-10 minutes after you switch back from 60 that it’s the most noticeable. It just felt odd to me because I’ve never been a person that cared that much about frame rate. This is the first time it really felt like a drastic difference. Though again, now it kind of doesn’t feel like a drastic difference because I’ve readjusted.

@NEStalgia I didn't say Angry Birds wasn't a "real game" (it obviously is), but there's nothing to it. It's just the process of launching birds across the screen at enemies. It's fine for what it is, and the simplicity jives with the mobile gaming scene well (bored people, standing in a line, only half paying attention to what's happening on the screen), but it's not even in the same universe as Undertale in terms of quality.

Notice that my criticism of it doesn't hinge at all on it being "low budget" or apparently being made in a garage. If it was a AAA game with perfect production values, my issues with it would be identical.

The battle system is great, considering the scope of the game. Besides the puzzle element of having to choose the right dialogue, in the right order, at the right time in order to spare enemies, the real time elements invest the player in a battle in a way that really old turn-based JRPGs never could. It's one of the better RPG battle systems I've encountered. Would I want to play a 60 hour game with that same battle system? Maybe not, but the length and pacing of the game ensures that battles are constantly entertaining and often laugh-out-loud funny (or, in the case of a genocide playthrough, weirdly eerie).

The art style is quite cohesive and distinctive. You might not like it, but the character designs all fit perfectly in that universe, and, as I've said, it'd be difficult to mistake for anything else. The style extends beyond the character designs to the menu layouts, color scheme, environmental design, etc. More than almost any other indie game I've ever played, it's a very well-realized product.

I also disagree that it's an "art game." It's not an "art game." It's a fun, short, linear RPG with a uniquely realized structure if you're going for the entire experience. I can sit here on a forum and talk about its subversive qualities all day, but, when I'm playing, I'm caught up in the act of playing. I don't do that with artsy crap like Abzu or Flower, which generally have almost nothing in the way of actual game mechanics, and rely on pretty music and on overly stylized visuals to convince pretentious people that they've just had an artistic experience. If Undertale occupies any sort of space, it's that artistic-but-still-a-satisfying-game category I'd put Shadow of the Colossus into. Both games are very limited in scope, but do the particular things they do extremely well.

Oh, and:

Who, exactly, is the hipster now, Mr. Fashionably Cynical?

Love all the backhanded commenting going on, it's hilarious

@Ralizah @NEStalgia I will say though: I just played Deltarune last week and in terms of gameplay, it is 100% better than Undertale's combat and the puzzles are a lot more in-depth and fun. I enjoyed Undertale's gameplay enough but Deltarune was just much better in almost every way except maybe story, but since it's not completed yet I'm going to reserve judgement for the story for the full release.

Also Dark Souls and Bloodborne are among the GOATs of action combat!!!!!

@Ralizah Say what you want about Angry Birds and Undertale. I played Angry Birds for weeks, dedicated, trying to do a perfect run back before 3DS came out (and after I decided I loathe the PSP nub) and I was playing an iPod Touch as my handheld. The gameplay was addictive. Undertale I hated every moment I had to do anything in that world other than read text. The gameplay was boring, tedious, and repetitive and not even visually stimulating while doing it, with a minigame approach that was often more trial-and-error than anything.

I'd agree though, you can't mistake anything else, visually, for Undertale. A truth I am most grateful for. I'd rather play Bloodborne. And you know how I feel about that game

LOL, not fashionable cynicism. Cannes films are pretentious, blockbusters are shallow CGI affairs aimed at the China market, and Oscar films are self gratification events for the in club with films designed to please the Academy, not the masses with a pretention of their own variety. It started with Babel. The only good thing about that movie was the Gustavo Santaolalla soundtrack. (The same Santaolalla that Sony butchered the mic on at E3....) There's just nothing to like in the modern film world.

@PikPi It's a gift. Plus Ralizah and I have been trading barbs on controller choice for years now. It's kind of a shtick now.

@NEStalgia Well, I spent 25 hours doing everything in Undertale over the course of four days or so when I first got into the PC version. That's three separate playthroughs (because I didn't realize that killing stuff would screw me out of one of the endings at the time). I think I've spent... three hours total on Angry Birds, between all the iterations. I'll play the first few levels, then slowly realize that I'm using this empty experience to stem the tide of boredom and existential dread that can so easily set in, and proceed to delete it from my phone.

So I guess all I can say is... different strokes for different folks?

Plenty of good-to-great films come out every year. Did you see Apollo 11 this year, which is full of amazing archival footage that is expertly edited to really put you in-the-moment historically? How about They Shall Not Grow Old, which takes 100+ year old footage of WW1 and painstakingly updates it to look like a semi-modern film, complete with color, regionally-appropriate dialects, and whatnot? Jordan Peele's Us might not be as incredible as the high society types want you to think, but it's still a creative and well-acted horror film. How to Train Your Dragon 3 is an engaging and fitting end to one of the few decent Western-animated film series. Alita: Battle Angel is a fun cyberpunk adventure film (also, one of the only good anime-to-hollywood transitions). And that's just the first three months of this year. Good movies come out every year. Your sweeping dismissal of all big-budget and independent films is exactly the sort of ignorant pretension that you railed against in the Nintendo fan community when discussing those people who talk about all "4K HD AAA" games as if they were cut from the same cloth. So, to use your turn of phrase: pot, meet kettle.

Sips soy latte, pinkie finger extended only for the sake of irony
NEStalgia: The only good thing about THAT movie was the Gustavo Santaolalla soundtrack.

You sure talk about hipsters a lot, too. Is this like those ultra-religious fundamentalists who rail against the gays only to be discovered in a compromising position in a public bathroom weeks later?

@EvilLucario I played a bit of Deltarune on PC when it first released. I really need to engage in a proper Switch playthrough. I held off because I didn't like the episodic-sounding name, but, by all accounts, it's pretty much a little free game in its own right.

Oh, and I agree that DS/Bloodborne have pretty good combat. It's the one aspect of those games I'll wholeheartedly praise. Everything else? Ehhhh.

In the case of Bloodborne, it feels like a good combat system in want of an actual game.

@Ralizah If you could spend 25 hours playing Undertale you really have the patience to be a neurosurgeon.

Angry Birds is pure arcade, in a good way. It's as shallow as any arcade game, but has that puzzle/physics aspect that makes it great. I mean, are BotW gravity bombs any more interesting? It's not really my bag anymore, since there's much better options available portably since 3DS came out. One of those is not Undertale.

Interesting, both Apollo 11 and They Shall Not Grow Old do sound of interest to me! I had not heard of either of them. Were they full theatrical releases, or what? Horror isn't my thing (film or gaming, or literature...so I can't comment on that genre.) I have yet to see any of the How to Train your Dragon series. Early advertising turned me off, but I do enjoy family films if they're not cheap/terribad/cashcows.

@NEStalgia Maybe not, but BotW gravity bombs aren't THE ENTIRE GAME either.

I can appreciate a good arcade experience, but Angry Birds barely even qualifies. There's so little actual interactivity besides aiming your birds.

I saw Apollo 11 playing at a bunch of different theaters. They Shall Not Grow Old was probably limited release, but it didn't take long to find one that was playing the movie. And remember, I live in a rural setting where it isn't as easy to find limited release films.

RE: How to Train Your Dragon... I mean, they're not classic Pixar levels of good, but they're fun, character-driven fantasy adventures with a minimum of obnoxious gags and a surprising moral clarity. All the movies take place in one continuity, so you'll want to start with the first, and you essentially follow the main character, a teenaged viking whose people are warring with dragons, from his early years to, after a time skip in the last film, middle age. It's starts as a "boy and his dog" sort of story, but as the scope increases over the course of the two sequels, it increasingly becomes more and more of an epic fantasy.

Not the best films ever made, but they're critically acclaimed for a reason, and are a welcome respite from the hordes of obnoxious "comedy" animated films that release every year.

@Ralizah For me Dark Souls and Bloodborne shine the most with their level design and combat. I could barely give two hoots about the story personally (even if it's a good example of marrying games with story) and the soundtrack is overrated (except for Bloodborne, that OST is great), but I can go through a run on the merits of the gameplay, which is damn good.

@NEStalgia As another film hater, I can at least say that How to Train Your Dragon IS a good movie. I never watched 2 or 3, but the first was a good romp. It's worth a watch after you wash your hands after that comment about Undertale. Like???????????????????????????????????????????????????

@Ralizah Yeah but Angry Birds isn't a 120 hour game, either I still say Angry Birds is on par or superior to the average pixel art indie game in most ways. Solid arcade gameplay, higher production values than most indies. I'm not saying that's something they should be proud of. I'm saying most indies should be ashamed.

Weird thing around here, it's not rural (anymore...much to my dismay...) but all the theaters that USED to be here closed, and were replaced with 14 theater multiplexes at least an hour away in any direction. Limited release theatrical stuff they tend to put in the city....and no sane person would ever visit that city voluntarily....(I used to but....it's gone down hill....and it was pretty down hill back then already....)

Pixar. Such a shame. They used to be amazing. I never liked Up though. It felt like one of those arthouse hipster movies meant for Cannes. But the rest was so amazing. And then Disney happened. I'll have to put How to Train your Tragon on the list after all!

Snobbery: Santaolalla isn't snobbery. He's mainstream for the normies, you....you...hipster, you! To be fair, I reserve my snobbery for music. Though even there I don't focus on the usual "audiophile genres"...there's only so much Norah Jones/Coltrane/Diana Krall/Hotel California/Dark Side of the Moon one person can bear in a lifetime..... I'll gladly admit throwing brick-wall compressed pop at speakers/amplifiers that cost far more than you should ever throw brick-wall compressed pop at....

You aren't mocking classic comedy films like SHREK, are you????

@EvilLucario Perhaps you missed my opening salvo on Undertale along the lines of "Playing Undertale is like watching Citizen Kane, if Citizen Kane were made entirely using sock puppets and subtitles"

@NEStalgia I mean hey, Citizen Kane is considered the holy grail of film. I wouldn't know because I don't like watching movies, but Idk. Still though, Undertale is a damn good experience and I'd definitely rank it pretty high, even as a game period.

@EvilLucario Well, I'm used to having very different taste in video games from you. With Ralizah it's a lot more rare to disagree.

@EvilLucario I guess, like with BotW, it's really down to how much you appreciate the moment-to-moment of it. I've heard many comments, particularly on PushSquare and GameFAQs, to the effect that BotW is a boring slog through an empty open world where all you do is fight bokoblins, find shrines, and collect korok.

I mean... that's not a totally incorrect characterization of the game, but it doesn't at all line up with my experience of it.

Meanwhile, these same people often call Bloodborne one of the best games ever made, which I'd liken to a plotless romp through a largely empty victorian city where everything looks the same and all you do is kill endless nightmare creatures. I'm sure, again, that this characterization, even if it isn't totally inaccurate, doesn't really capture the feel of playing the game for you.

When you fall into a game, it feels totally different than it does to a person who can't fall into it, for whatever reason.

By the way, have you gotten Sekiro? It sounds RIGHT up your alley.

@NEStalgia Oh, we have to travel an hour out of town, at least, to find a decent theater. It's just the way it is around here. I think my town has one tiny theater, and that's it.

I have mixed feelings about mid-life Pixar. Films like Up and Wall-E and such. In the case of Up, the first ten minutes or so are a brilliant little short story in their own right. I also really liked the 'moral' of the movie, and the interesting premise. But it gets weird. There's a giant bird thing, and then some talking dogs, and... it gets weird at that point. It's a good Pixar movie if you omit the middle section entirely.

Wall-E was a great, uncharacteristically cheery post-apocalyptic silent film about robots and companionship, and then the movie decides it needs to have a message, so you're suddenly watching these enormously fat people drift around a spaceship and... ech. Omit the last half of that film and it'd be good.

Late-stage Pixar is terrible, of course. I'm dreading Toy Story 4. What a way to mess up a consistently good movie trilogy that ended in a touching and very wholesome way. Now Bo Peep is some independent womyn wielding her staff like Rey from Star Wars, too. Ugh.

I actually enjoyed The Incredibles 2, though. I've actually argued that it's a better superhero film than anything Marvel has churned out in years, which always gets some... interesting reactions from people. Particular the last Avengers film. God, what a loud, stupid, up-its-own-bum sort of film. Almost three hours long, too.

Also, LMAO at the Shrek example. How many decades has it been since you've been to the cinemas? Shrek is positively classical filmmaking compared to the cretinous filth like Minions, Ice Age 5, and Angry Birds: The Movie (which is horrible, sorry to say; I know it must come as a shock to a big Angry Birds guy like yourself) that passes for children's cinema these days. It's why I treasure the occasional decent ones: the HtTYD trilogy; Kubo and the Two Strings; Coraline; Isle of Dogs (although, I'll admit, this one comes perilously close to actually being a film only appropriate for consumption by hipsters).

@Ralizah That's a pretty good description of it. Some games just have something that grabs some people, and not others. Sometimes you just have to give up and say "I can't understand why you like this, but I can accept that you do."

It's how I feel about basically any military shooter or horror game.

On an entirely different note, Kubo and the Two Strings was a great movie. Just had to add my agreement there.