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Topic: Super Mario NX

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Bolt_Strike

CM30 wrote:

I think the best solution for Mario NX would be a genuine hybrid of the 2D and 3D Mario games.

As in, you've got the worlds to explore with multiple missions and a hub (akin to 64 and Sunshine), but the power up, health and minor mechanics (lack of knockback, no air meter underwater) from 3D Land and 3D World. Along with the visual presentation level from Galaxy 1 and 2.

Then the missions would each be beatable with multiple strategies based on what items you have, whether you're riding a Yoshi, what character you're playing as, etc. Add a few more complex bosses, and you've got what I'd consider the ideal 3D Mario game. A genuine hybrid of 2D and 3D styles.

What about the level design? Would it be open ended or linear? That I think would make or break a hybrid style, if it's too linear then you don't really have enough opportunities for exploration to satisfy the collectathon fans and if it's too open ended, then you lose the straightforwardness and platforming challenge of the linear games. There needs to be a healthy balance of both in the level design. Something like 3D Land 3-1 would be good level design for a hybrid style, there's a clear direction for you to go, but you can wander around the level and complete it in different ways.

Bolt_Strike

3DS Friend Code: 4725-8075-8961 | Nintendo Network ID: Bolt_Strike

Canadian_Ronin

I wonder if they might look at a series like Jak and Daxter & Sly Cooper when rethinking Mario.

Instead of going level to level create 1 big Mushroom Kingdom, a large area that Mario can explore and go through, similar to Sandover Village, only bigger and more diverse. Fill this area with platforming, branching paths, required and optional objectives, castles and ships to explore and defeat etc... When they do have a "proper level", like a castle, instead of a linear path they could go with smaller open areas that Mario has to go through and solve, similar to the heists in Sly Cooper (though they easily make these less linear then they are in that series)

I don't think Mario needs, or should have, a big complicated, in depth story. That's not what Mario is about. But there has to be some narrative to drive the gameplay. I would get away from the "save the Princess" storyline, and make Peach/Toadstool a playable character. I'd like to see something more like....Bowser has a weapon he is going to use to destroy the kingdom and Mario and co. have to collect X amoung of Y to power a shield some Todd is building to shield them. Once thats done you have to go take out a number of towers (or something similar) so Bowser can't use the weapon again, and then ultimately defeat Bowser.

Canadian_Ronin

toxibunny

That seems like a reasonable amount of story. I'd enjoy another 'unlock the pages of the storybook', too. Or something like Splatoon's secret scrolls, where elements are explained in retrospect. Man, I liked the graphics and gameplay of Super Mario 3D World, but the total lack of story made the whole thing seem pointless... Totally artificial... The original Super Mario World had more depth to it, and that was a long time ago now...

toxibunny

Bolt_Strike

Canadian_Ronin wrote:

I wonder if they might look at a series like Jak and Daxter & Sly Cooper when rethinking Mario.

Instead of going level to level create 1 big Mushroom Kingdom, a large area that Mario can explore and go through, similar to Sandover Village, only bigger and more diverse. Fill this area with platforming, branching paths, required and optional objectives, castles and ships to explore and defeat etc... When they do have a "proper level", like a castle, instead of a linear path they could go with smaller open areas that Mario has to go through and solve, similar to the heists in Sly Cooper (though they easily make these less linear then they are in that series)

I don't think Mario needs, or should have, a big complicated, in depth story. That's not what Mario is about. But there has to be some narrative to drive the gameplay. I would get away from the "save the Princess" storyline, and make Peach/Toadstool a playable character. I'd like to see something more like....Bowser has a weapon he is going to use to destroy the kingdom and Mario and co. have to collect X amoung of Y to power a shield some Todd is building to shield them. Once thats done you have to go take out a number of towers (or something similar) so Bowser can't use the weapon again, and then ultimately defeat Bowser.

I doubt it. Jak and Daxter hasn't been relevant for a decade, and Sly Cooper is kind of niche. They're probably not looking too deeply into what the other platformers are doing since platforming doesn't have much of a presence outside of Nintendo.

Edited on by Bolt_Strike

Bolt_Strike

3DS Friend Code: 4725-8075-8961 | Nintendo Network ID: Bolt_Strike

Canadian_Ronin

[quote=Bolt_Strike]

Canadian_Ronin wrote:

I doubt it. Jak and Daxter hasn't been relevant for a decade, and Sly Cooper is kind of niche. They're probably not looking too deeply into what the other platformers are doing since platforming doesn't have much of a presence outside of Nintendo.

Miyamoto said he wants to change things up with Mario, that means if they are going to look at any other franchise's they would be looking at the few other platformers out there, including older ones.

Beyond think of who/what they may pull from, going to a more open world (not really open world......creating a world that is a giant platforming level) would be a new direction/rethinking of the Mario formula. Its possible to make something similar to Jak and Daxter without meaning too.

Its bit like Skyward word as well, where the different area's Link would go too were basically dungeon's that had to be navigated and solved before you could progress to the "proper dungeon"

Edited on by Canadian_Ronin

Canadian_Ronin

Bolt_Strike

Canadian_Ronin wrote:

Miyamoto said he wants to change things up with Mario, that means if they are going to look at any other franchise's they would be looking at the few other platformers out there, including older ones.

Beyond think of who/what they may pull from, going to a more open world (not really open world......creating a world that is a giant platforming level) would be a new direction/rethinking of the Mario formula. Its possible to make something similar to Jak and Daxter without meaning too.

Who said they were looking at other platformers? I don't think they have any reason to, Mario drives trends more often that it follows them, Jak and Daxter itself was just copying Mario 64's formula. They're probably not going to look too far into what the competition's done because they really haven't done much that Mario hasn't. And as far as open world, I don't think they're going to go for that, they said themselves that they want to keep Mario accessible, and they seem to think accessibility demands linear level design. That's not to say that they can't work more exploration elements back into the formula in a way that works with the linear platforming style, but I don't think they want to make Mario open world because then it's harder to tell where you're supposed to go.

Bolt_Strike

3DS Friend Code: 4725-8075-8961 | Nintendo Network ID: Bolt_Strike

Canadian_Ronin

[quote=Bolt_Strike]

Canadian_Ronin wrote:

Who said they were looking at other platformers? I don't think they have any reason to, Mario drives trends more often that it follows them, Jak and Daxter itself was just copying Mario 64's formula. They're probably not going to look too far into what the competition's done because they really haven't done much that Mario hasn't. And as far as open world, I don't think they're going to go for that, they said themselves that they want to keep Mario accessible, and they seem to think accessibility demands linear level design. That's not to say that they can't work more exploration elements back into the formula in a way that works with the linear platforming style, but I don't think they want to make Mario open world because then it's harder to tell where you're supposed to go.

Its logically that if you want to change what you're doing you will look at what others are doing. Its not like all the changes they made to Zelda in Breath of the Wild are 100% new and original and have never been done in a game before.

And like I said, opening up the world, making the entire mushroom kingdom a giant platforming level would be a logical way to go with the franchise, even if they don't look at a game like Jak and Daxter they may end using ideas that were used in that serious without knowingly taking from it.

I think you're making a jump that accessibility = linear design. Remember this kind of "open world" isn't the same as BotW's. Just starting the game and being able to run around a Kingdom, going from grass lands, to forest, to desert, to underwater etc... completely freely would be very accessible. How many casual gamers would start up Mario 64 and just run around and play in the hub world?

Edited on by Canadian_Ronin

Canadian_Ronin

Bolt_Strike

Canadian_Ronin wrote:

I think you're making a jump that accessibility = linear design. Remember this kind of "open world" isn't the same as BotW's. Just starting the game and being able to run around a Kingdom, going from grass lands, to forest, to desert, to underwater etc... completely freely would be very accessible. How many casual gamers would start up Mario 64 and just run around and play in the hub world?

Not really. There have been several comments from Nintendo and Game Freak in the past about some of the younger players getting lost in more open ended level design, that's the reason they moved away from exploration based games in the first place. Look at some of the comments from Iwata, Miyamoto, and Koizumi here:

https://dromble.wordpress.com/2013/09/21/nintendos-frustratio...

I can practically guarantee you open world Mario is not going to happen, they don't want to go to that extreme.

Edited on by Bolt_Strike

Bolt_Strike

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Haru17

I just hope we get hub worlds again like in Sunshine. The spaceship was the only area from Galaxy I was attached to, because it evolved over time.

Don't hate me because I'm bnahabulous.

Canadian_Ronin

[quote=Haru17]

Bolt_Strike wrote:

Not really. There have been several comments from Nintendo and Game Freak in the past about some of the younger players getting lost in more open ended level design, that's the reason they moved away from exploration based games in the first place. Look at some of the comments from Iwata, Miyamoto, and Koizumi here:

https://dromble.wordpress.com/2013/09/21/nintendos-frustratio...

I can practically guarantee you open world Mario is not going to happen, they don't want to go to that extreme.

And they also said when they showed BotW that they've changed their way of thinking and they don't see getting lost as a bad thing.

And calling what I'm suggesting an "open world" isn't really........accurate. I'm not suggesting a realistically modeled Mushroom Kingdom or huge world that needs to be explored with secrets that must be figured out, toad's wandering around at random etc... GTA: Mushroom Kingdom would be a misstep.

Instead of levels there are "areas". Open area's/arena's that are built to explore and platform instead of linear paths. They could/would look something like this when playing
http://vignette2.wikia.nocookie.net/jakanddaxter/images/1/17/...
And, overall would look like this
http://vignette3.wikia.nocookie.net/jakanddaxter/images/6/6d/...

You then stitch these area's together so Mario and Luigi and Toadstool and Toad and any other character can run from the castle to a village to a forrest to a beach to a mountain etc... They can insert more traditional "levels" in forms of castles mario has to go into during the game.

Canadian_Ronin wrote:

I just hope we get hub worlds again like in Sunshine. The spaceship was the only area from Galaxy I was attached to, because it evolved over time.

If they want to change up Mario the way BotW is changing Zelda, I think we'll see them get away from old conventions like that.

Canadian_Ronin

Bolt_Strike

Canadian_Ronin wrote:

Haru17 wrote:

Not really. There have been several comments from Nintendo and Game Freak in the past about some of the younger players getting lost in more open ended level design, that's the reason they moved away from exploration based games in the first place. Look at some of the comments from Iwata, Miyamoto, and Koizumi here:

https://dromble.wordpress.com/2013/09/21/nintendos-frustratio...

I can practically guarantee you open world Mario is not going to happen, they don't want to go to that extreme.

And they also said when they showed BotW that they've changed their way of thinking and they don't see getting lost as a bad thing.

And calling what I'm suggesting an "open world" isn't really........accurate. I'm not suggesting a realistically modeled Mushroom Kingdom or huge world that needs to be explored with secrets that must be figured out, toad's wandering around at random etc... GTA: Mushroom Kingdom would be a misstep.

Instead of levels there are "areas". Open area's/arena's that are built to explore and platform instead of linear paths. They could/would look something like this when playing
http://vignette2.wikia.nocookie.net/jakanddaxter/images/1/17/...
And, overall would look like this
http://vignette3.wikia.nocookie.net/jakanddaxter/images/6/6d/...

You then stitch these area's together so Mario and Luigi and Toadstool and Toad and any other character can run from the castle to a village to a forrest to a beach to a mountain etc... They can insert more traditional "levels" in forms of castles mario has to go into during the game.

Zelda can get away with that more because the core concept is based around exploration. Mario, not so much, exploration definitely enhances the gameplay but it's not the focus, the platforming is. That being said, I would like to see levels more like Sentinel Beach, but not for pure exploration, something like that would be good for a hybrid style that can accommodate fans of both linear platformers and exploration based platformers.

Edited on by Bolt_Strike

Bolt_Strike

3DS Friend Code: 4725-8075-8961 | Nintendo Network ID: Bolt_Strike

Canadian_Ronin

[quote=Canadian_Ronin][quote=Haru17]

Bolt_Strike wrote:

Zelda can get away with that more because the core concept is based around exploration. Mario, not so much, exploration definitely enhances the gameplay but it's not the focus, the platforming is. That being said, I would like to see levels more like Sentinel Beach, but not for pure exploration, something like that would be good for a hybrid style that can accommodate fans of both linear platformers and exploration based platformers.

I don't think the game I laid out would hinge on exploration the way BotW does. Sure there would/should be thinks and areas and "levels" etc... you can find by spending the time to look and collect things to unlock areas, but that isn't really any different from the current Mario formula. The only difference is the "worlds" are big areas designed to be platformed in instead of hubs to levels.

Canadian_Ronin

DBPirate

I was not really a fan of the Mario 64 style where it just throws you into the hub. Might be an unpopular opinion, but I greatly prefer the Galaxy style that sets you on a path to one star, though there are things like Hungry Lumas that can lead you to others.

And when I said open world on the last page, I meant that I think it'd be great to find collectibles in the open world. This is when Green Stars could come into play. However, finding collectibles in the actual levels themselves is starting to get a bit old. I'd love to visit Toad Town, Bowser's Castle, and maybe even some Mario Kart locations like Moo Moo Meadows, Mushroom City, and Electrodrome to find collectibles in a decent-sized open world.

Another thing I want is for coins to have more of a purpose. Bring back the "back-up power-up" thing from the handheld New Super Mario Bros., 3D Land, and 3D World, and maybe have the ability to buy those at Toad Houses with coins.

Prankster Comets or something of the sort returning would be nice as well.

Currently playing: Bayonetta 2

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CM30

Moo Moo Meadows, Mushroom City, and Electrodrome to find collectibles in a decent-sized open world.

I think you've brought up something very important here.

Namely, more original world themes. The Mario Kart areas mentioned above would be great choices for worlds because they're more interesting than 'desert world', 'ice world', 'sky world', etc.

So that's what I hope this game has. Better and more interesting concepts for worlds, with less New Super Mario Bros style genericness.

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Bolt_Strike

CM30 wrote:

Moo Moo Meadows, Mushroom City, and Electrodrome to find collectibles in a decent-sized open world.

I think you've brought up something very important here.

Namely, more original world themes. The Mario Kart areas mentioned above would be great choices for worlds because they're more interesting than 'desert world', 'ice world', 'sky world', etc.

So that's what I hope this game has. Better and more interesting concepts for worlds, with less New Super Mario Bros style genericness.

Less NSMB influence in general would be very much welcome. That series is the epitome of lazy rehashing.

Bolt_Strike

3DS Friend Code: 4725-8075-8961 | Nintendo Network ID: Bolt_Strike

DBPirate

Bolt_Strike wrote:

CM30 wrote:

Moo Moo Meadows, Mushroom City, and Electrodrome to find collectibles in a decent-sized open world.

I think you've brought up something very important here.

Namely, more original world themes. The Mario Kart areas mentioned above would be great choices for worlds because they're more interesting than 'desert world', 'ice world', 'sky world', etc.

So that's what I hope this game has. Better and more interesting concepts for worlds, with less New Super Mario Bros style genericness.

Less NSMB influence in general would be very much welcome. That series is the epitome of lazy rehashing.

I would agree with you, but only for NSMB2. NSMBU was good, in my opinion.

Currently playing: Bayonetta 2

My Nintendo: DillPickle | Nintendo Network ID: Czechmate1129

DefHalan

DBPirate wrote:

Bolt_Strike wrote:

CM30 wrote:

Moo Moo Meadows, Mushroom City, and Electrodrome to find collectibles in a decent-sized open world.

I think you've brought up something very important here.

Namely, more original world themes. The Mario Kart areas mentioned above would be great choices for worlds because they're more interesting than 'desert world', 'ice world', 'sky world', etc.

So that's what I hope this game has. Better and more interesting concepts for worlds, with less New Super Mario Bros style genericness.

Less NSMB influence in general would be very much welcome. That series is the epitome of lazy rehashing.

I would agree with you, but only for NSMB2. NSMBU was good, in my opinion.

The only NSMB game I felt was lacking, was Wii. However, that is the one I played the least and owned for the shortest amount of time. I still find myself coming back to NSMB2 and NSMBU again and again. (One day I might buy New Super Luigi U)

People keep saying the Xbox One doesn't have Backwards Compatibility.
I don't think they know what Backwards Compatibility means...

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Bolt_Strike

The entire NSMB is lazy. They're all level pack sequels that rely on the same mechanics, same level tropes, same plot structure (or lackthereof), same level and world structure, same everything except levels and powerups.

Bolt_Strike

3DS Friend Code: 4725-8075-8961 | Nintendo Network ID: Bolt_Strike

Canadian_Ronin

@DBPirate I think there is room for both styles of Mario game - fully 3D, open world (for lack of a better term) and more traditional, level by level games. Just like there is room for 3D and top down Zelda games.

Canadian_Ronin

colin17lax

I feel that playing a 3D mario game much harder than a traditional 2D game. I feel nintendo should make a 3D and 2D game that sticks to the basics of mario and doesn't F it up like they did with Super Mario Bros. 2.

colin17lax

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