Topic: Still no Birdo in MK8 even with Deluxe?

@Kimyonaakuma
Sorry, "lazier". <- And that's for MK8 and MK8D.
"They would also have had to create completely new assets that would have enough detail to look good enough on an HD TV." For some reason this doesn't sit well with me, because having games look good for an HD TV is like the standard for all Devs.

Wii U release date: Nov. 18, 2012
MK8 release date: May 29, 2014
That doesn't seem very soon to me.
I'll agree that it looks the best, but the rest are debatable. Like I said before, the roster is "large" but when you cut out the variations, it's not so big. I would also argue this game plays the same as MK7, I would go further back, but I didn't play anything further back.

Yeah, not a fan of Nintendo doing DLC all to much. I mean I love Smash Bros. and bought all the DLC for it, but it was a total rip seeing as all the DLC cost more than the base game. MK DLC didn't do that, but I would rather them just have fully finished games and only have DLC ONCE in a while. The free DLC for Splatoon and soon to be ARMS is welcomed though.

So how do you know the Battle mode is better?
Yeah, to incentivize people who bought MK8 to buy it again.

"Lazier" and I have no idea what circumstances they were under that would impede their work.
What, are we suppose to thank Devs for doing good ports now? Especially when it's within their own hardware? You can do you, but this isn't anything to be patting them on the backs for.
The main problem is that Nintendo put in 7 skins of Bowser Jr. (for weight class this could be knocked down to 5), 3 skins of Mario and 2 for Peach and that's not even talking about the Babies.

@skywake
Yes they did.
I would say there's one, not solely because of Mario Kart, but because Birdo is in virtually no games. MK in particular is just another nail.

I said that even without the skins it would still be a larger roster than the other games.
They can win, here's how: Stop taking away from the previous game. <- Unless it's a horrible game mechanic that shouldn't have even been in the game to begin with, like tripping in Brawl.

@Kinoen

"For some reason this doesn't sit well with me, because having games look good for an HD TV is like the standard for all Devs." - That's true but compared to previous games in the series it was a lot more work and designing, modelling, texturing and rigging models can take a long time. This was also the team's first HD project so they were probably a little inexperienced compared to other devs.

From what I can find the team at Nintendo that develops the Mario Kart series was busy in 2011 making Nintendogs + cats in the first part of the year and then worked on Mario Kart 7 with Retro studios for an early December release. Presumably like most studios there was a break after this development cycle and the next project wasn't started until early 2012. Seeming as most first party Nintendo games are completed at least a few weeks to a month before release to allow for manufacturing and distribution this gives the dev team two years to make this game.
Even if some designs were made before 2012, they would still have to be expanded on and finalised before a lot of things could even get started. The team would have to get used to the new hardware, get the engine to work and work on new features among making new tracks and redesigning some old ones. Seeming as most games take years to complete, the devs did good for a first attempt on new hardware - and the Wii U hasn't really been known to be an easy console to develop for.

I would say that the roster is large but lacks variety. The main cast obviously have to be racers and Lakitu, Shy Guy and Metal Mario were most likely added due to popularity in MK7. None of the baby characters are new except for baby Rosalina, but she was probably added because Rosalina is popular and adding a baby version would complete the set of baby versions of human characters. As for the endless "Bowser Jr. clones", they were requested for personally by the director so they kind of had to be added. Pink gold peach is a disaster but I doubt that it took much effort to change the textures and slightly change the voice.

I would say that it does seems to be a continuation of what MK7 started, but you should totally go back and play the older games! ....even if they have wayyyy less characters and tracks.

I personally think that they went too far with the smash bros dlc and I think that fire emblem seems to be doing a similar thing sadly. Mario kart 8 could have managed without the DLC but as the most popular game on a struggling console I see why they did it, and I think the price reflected the content that you received. Splatoon and ARMS are games that are mainly single player and online, releasing free content over a long period keeps people interested. I doubt that as many people would have continued to play splatoon as often if a new weapon wasn't released every week or so.

I don't have a switch or a copy of the game but I have still played the battle mode for an hour or two so I could appreciate the improvements even if some battle modes are better than others. And yeah they're a business, if they are trying to sell as many switches as possible for a large install base then selling a game from a popular series that many people haven't played before will do good for them. I'm pretty sure that owners of the original would survive not having a different battle mode and a few extra characters.

Yeah we'll probably never know what they everything that they have to go through. But that is a lot of work for that amount of time, especially for a game that is as polished as MK8.
I'm not thanking any devs for any ports at all, they ported a game with a slightly higher resolution and a few new features. I would say that they would have to do that or else it would be very "deluxe" - it would just be Mario Kart 8: The DLC included edition..which doesn't sound as good tbh...
The deluxe version won't have taken much effort when compared to other projects, it's basically just refining what they have started. And I don't really thank or consider devs ever if I am being honest, but I appreciate the work that they do even if they are mostly invisible.

They have to add new characters in every game, and the Koopalings had not been added yet, and MK8 was probably the right came to add them to as they finally became relevant again due to featuring in New Super Mario Bros after being absent. Metal mario and peach would have taken minimal effort and most likely didn't "steal" anyone's spot. Any other new character options would have to be minor enemies -which is unlikely- or characters from side games like paper mario - which I'm pretty sure hasn't happened yet? -

So yeah the roster is far from perfect but it makes sense from what was popular and relevant at the time, and at least the Koopalings probably won't all appear in future games.

@Kinoen
I wouldn't really say that planning ahead to meet dealines and stay on budget is cutting corners. I'd rather that happen than my game be limited by the developer running out of time. That will lead to unpredictable omissions. And I don't think anyone is taking up 'slots' from anyone else. MK8 has the largest roster in series history, but likely only because some of the additions were easy to make. It's not like we could have a different character that would take much longer to make if Pink Gold Peach wasn't there. We'd just have one character less.
Which also ties back in to your your earlier point about skins vs clones. The clones are likely included because two people can't use the same character with different skins. If four kids all wanted to play as the babies, they now can. Clones also allow the weight class to change. PGP is heavy weight just like Rosalina, so people who like playing as Peach can match the performance of a rival.

It's all about how much functionality they can give you while staying on budget, is how it seems to me. If MK8 only had eight playable characters like Super Circuit, and only had Mario and the Koopalings, then maybe I'd be willing to talk about someone replacing others in terms of slots.

My dilemma ended up being that I liked Wendy Koopa as a design a lot, but being lightweight meant I had a hard time building a good bike for her that suited my playstyle. So now I play with Isabelle, because I like her, but she really doesn't sit well with the rest of the cast.

I don't want Mario Kart to become Super Smash Kartz, so rather than accusing Nintendo of being lazy, I'm accusing them of sacrificing product integrity with the guest reps like Link and the AC characters, even if I know they needed an edge to make the DLC enticing. Because the DLC itself was imposing in a terrible way, with locked character visible every time you were on the selection screen.

What else was terrible was the Mercedes content. Yeah it was free, but it was so ugly, and you could 't make it go away from the menu. At least you didn't HAVE to dowload it. And at least it's gone from MK8 deluxe.

@Pod Actually the Mercedes content is still in MK8D or are you talking about it appearing on the menu or something?

And regarding the topic, it's unfortunate Birdo isn't a character you can play as, but there honestly isn't much we can complain about. We have a wide variety of tracks, a great battle mode, heaps of vehicle customization and some great characters we can play as. I don't think the lack of a character is a sign of laziness just rather that some characters simply made it in and some didn't.

@Kimyonaakuma
Their fault for being behind the times.

Regardless, waiting that long isn't rushing out the game for the Wii U, or whatever the reason for them rushing was for.
Again, I expect games to run smoothly when they are released, that is the standard. The Wii U is stupidly hard to make games for, but that's Nintendo working on Nintendo, so it should have either 1.) been a breeze or 2.) Their fault for making the Wii U like that at which I would not feel pity for them seeing as it is their own mistake.

That's what i said.
Welp, sometimes a "no" goes a long way. Like how Sakurai should've said no to all those Fire Emblem characters seeing as he didn't want that many.

Right?
I should, but I don't. I personally can't fully enjoy games that don't look up to date and Double-Dash would be the only one I would try out.

"Splatoon and ARMS are games that are mainly single player and online", those games are heavily focused on multiplayer, along with Mario Kart.
I say the only reason those game get free DLC is because they launch with hardly any content, like Overwatch.

Which is all fine and dandy, but don't spit in the peoples face who bothered buying a Wii U to play MK8. I didn't buy it just for MK8, I'm just saying I bought a console that wasn't doing to hot since Nintendo screwed over 3rd parties as was slooooooooooow making their first-party games.

I won't deny the amount of work put into it, just that a chunk of it was wasted.
"Mario Kart Game of the Year Edition" is what Devs would have called it.
I appreciate the work of Devs to, but when you are as big as Nintendo and you show me this game and it's content compared to an Indie team and show me the content in The Witcher, I just appreciate the Indie team. (Heads up, If nobody likes MK being compared to The Witcher in terms of content, you can go ahead and think about any game Nintendo made that comes close to the content in The Witcher.)

I'm not hating on the Koopalings being in the game, I'm hating on the fact they EACH take up a slot while they are all skins for Bow Jr. in Smash.

@Pod
Maybe not Metal Mario or Peach, but I still feel the majority of the Koopalings are as well as Tanooki Mario and Cat Peach. Though the last 2 are skins through and through, the fact they were DLC for The Legend of Zelda is just, no.

If it was just those characters, I'd be on the forums wondering why people bought it e.e.

Isabelle and Link are the only reasons to buy that game!

Guess I'm the only one who would want to see that...Wait, so you actually DON'T like Link or AC being DLC? Oh jeez, please tell me you also didn't like Tanooki Mario, Gold Mario and Cat Peach.

Yup, pretty sure I brought that up but I didn't get the name right.

@Eric258
Yeah it is! My interpretation of "laziness" is because of the variation of Mario and Peach that could have been actual character as well as the Koopalings each taking a slot as opposed to being skins, which would have knocked down 8 slots (I'm counting Bow Jr.) to 3 (because of weight).

@Kinoen Okay, two things about this:

the variation of Mario and Peach that could have been actual character
That's not how it works. Similarly to clone characters in Smash, you wouldn't get an entirely new character even if you cut both of these. On the other hand, if they have few differences from the regular versions is because the team didn't have enough time to make them more different, simple as that.

the Koopalings each taking a slot as opposed to being skins, which would have knocked down 8 slots (I'm counting Bow Jr.) to 3 (because of weight).
There are seven weight categories in MK8, not three. And even taking that into account, it wouldn't surprise me if characters from the same category had different individual weights.

@Kinoen
Nintendo has always been weird, even if it causes problems down the line for them.

I do the same thing! There so many games that I have wanted to play because I was too young or didn't exist when they were released but I never get far due to how they look. I don't even find graphics that important in general but I find some games to look kind of blurry or muddy in a way that I find really distracting to the overall experience. I even have the same problem when replaying games that I loved when I was younger - skyward sword just looks like a blurry mess and MK wii just has some weird things that I never noticed until recently.
I would say double dash is worth it for sure. Maybe they'll upscale it if they bring it to the switch virtual console because it's about time they did. I guess you could try running it on dolphin depending on your computer perhaps?

Sorry by single player I meant one player per system but playing online. I had played mario kart double dash, DS and Wii by myself for 99% of the time (yeah I know, tragic), so I have always focused on the single player modes.
Splatoon and ARMS seem slightly different to me though as they seem to have fewer single player features, splatoon in particular. But that's just my opinion that's all.

Yeah it sucks but they are a business in end, and I doubt that MK8 will be the port that we'll see sadly...

I have never played The Witcher series or anything made by that studio. So I can't really comment on that sorry...

@Eric258
Mostly talking about it not appearing in the menu. But since I don't own Deluxe myself yet, I hadn't actually been made aware that the Mercedes karts were still in the game. And now impossible to remove, I assume? That's a real bummer for me. They have no place in the game.

And I'm ultimately okay with Birdo not being included. I'm not saying Nintendo owe me to include the scaley darling.

@Kinoen
Yes. I am against the inclusion of guests from other Nintendo series in Mario Kart. Particularly when they bring their out-of-place quirks with them, like Isabelle's stylized beams and bleepy voice, or they bring their overpowered trash, like the Epona bike, which outpaces most other cycles in a way that means you HAVE to use it for some builds to be feasible.

Now, I do think they handled it in a reasonably tasteful manner. And I'm not smitten with kittens either. But I'd rather have had Birdo, Waluigi, and ANY MARIO CHARACTER EVER, be it Boom Boom or Pom Pom, Pauline, or even E. Gadd, than have Villager, Isabelle, and Link.

@MarcelRguez
I've accepted that for Metal Mario and Peach, nothing else gets a pass.

Wiki is telling me there's Light, Medium and Heavy. What weights are you referring to?

@Kimyonaakuma
Live and learn, but I've noticed they don't learn much.

Right? I also agree graphics aren't everything, I mean one of my favorite games is Undertale, but I cannot deal with those blurry, muddy looking graphics.
I'm not a huge fan of emulation since old games don't really entice me.

99%? Those are rookie numbers, pump it up!

A business should adapt with the times.
You really should.

@Pod
Booo~ How could Nintendo characters be out of place in a Nintendo "party" game? I mean if we had Star Fox appear in Mario Galaxy, I can see your reasoning (though I would be hyped to see it.). EDIT: Just noticed Cpt. Falcon's vehicle is in the game, do you not like that? /EDIT
I have heard that Link's vehicle is really good, but why not ask to tone it down rather than being removed from the game? EDIT: Looking at the stats, the bike seems standard, no stats showing it OP. /EDIT

Bruh, rock and a hard place seeing how I want Birdo in the game, but I would be torn if Villager, Isabelle or Link had to be removed to do so. I mean, why should only the Mario universe get the fun spin-off games while the others get nothing? Look at poor Samus!

@Pod Personally I'm quite fond of the GLA stuff. It looks ridiculous but that's why I love it. Idk, it's just really amusing to me. And btw, if your worried about balancing, stats and stuff like that for the customization, I heard that in MK8D a lot of it was reworked. I never had the original version so I don't know exactly what's changed but a lot has.

@Kinoen It's not about you 'accepting' anything, it's about the reality of the situation. It is what it is.

The actual weight classes are:

• Very Light: the baby characters, Dry Bones, Lemmy
• Light: Toad, Toadette, Koopa Troopa, Shy Guy, Lakitu, Bowser Jr., Larry, Wendy, Isabelle
• Medium 1: Peach, Daisy, Yoshi, Tanooki Mario, Cat Peach, Inklings, Villagers
• Medium 2: Mario, Luigi, Iggy, Ludwig
• Heavy: Donkey Kong, Rosalina, Waluigi, King Boo, Roy, Metal Mario, Pink Gold Peach, Link
• Very Heavy: Wario, Bowser, Dry Boswer, Morton
• Undetermined/Variable: Mii characters

@MarcelRguez
K, not like you were the one that made accept those characters anyway. The reality of the situation is that Tanooki Mario, Gold Mario and Cat Peach were completely pointless.

Where did you get that information, since I didn't see it on the Wiki?

@Kinoen From the one place you should consult for this kind of info: the game.

Select Mario and Peach for a race, put them on the exact same kart and see how their weight differs. Now do the same with Peach and Toad. Now with Donkey and Bowser.

I don't know what wiki you've been reading, but there's been more than three weight categories since Super Circuit at the very least.

Edit: and a link to a guide with that info, for good measure.

@Kinoen I'm curious about what you mean by them being pointless? I thought Cat Peach and Tanooki Mario had some really neat animations and they also served a different purposes, Cat Peach and Tanooki Mario being there to advertise Super Mario 3D World and Gold Mario being just a re-skin to serve as an incentive to get gold in all the 200cc cups. Also if we're going to be talking about characters being pointless, wouldn't Birdo also be pointless? I mean if she has the same weight class as Yoshi and hasn't been really relevant in any recent games then how is she more meaningful the other characters. Not trying to pick a fight, just not sure how Birdo is more valuable compared to other characters.

@MarcelRguez
If I ever decide to get the game, I will look through it to find the list you supplied.

Does this mean you made up the list?

This: https://www.mariowiki.com/Mario_Kart_8_Deluxe
Thanks for your link, but that seems like an "underground" website. I'm going to be putting my trust in Wiki, seeing as how they never let me down.

@Eric258
Because when I buy a Legend of Zelda DLC pack, I expect Legend of Zelda characters, not re-skins for characters who already have re-skinned characters. Why not a character for completing the 200cc cups?
No, because Birdo is an actual character, not a skin.
No worries, I'm not much for aggro. I never said she was more meaningful than other characters, it just so happens that she's my favorite character from the universe, therefore has me wanting her in. Plus if you wanted to get into it, Birdo was the first trans-gender game character ever created (to my knowledge) and seeing as there's virtually 0 other trans-gendered characters in general (I'm including games as whole), that certainly gives Birdo more value.

.....This thread is starting to get weird...>_>

@Kinoen Yeah I get you. I think she's a pretty cool character but in the end she simply didn't make the cut. And to be fair to Nintendo, they never said the DLC would only contain Zelda stuff, just that some Zelda stuff would be in it. But anyway, just gotta cross your fingers that she's in the next game. If there is another game coming to the switch.

@Joeynator3000 Let's be honest, we've both seen weirder threads on this site! XD

@Kinoen You are not listening. There are stats, in the game, from we can substract the character's weight.

Edit: Is this the wiki you're reading? Because it's not just innacurate, but incomplete as well.

Edit 2: Definitive list, since this one includes stats.

A similar one, not sure why the metal characters are listed like that.

And stats in Super Circuit, with its five weight classes:

Since the game borrows as heavily from F-Zero as is the case, I could maybe string along with the inclusion of the levels and the Blue Falcon. But I'd really rather they didn't, and I certainly wouldn't enjoy seeing Cpt. Falcon himself in there.

Concerning the Epona Bike, maybe I just suck at building bikes, but I feel like I need it to both have proper speed and acceleration when playing lighter characters on bikes.

Haha, true about Samus. She doesn't even get to be in her own latest spin-off. And she was relegated to being a friggin' ball in the pinball game. I'm not saying the other franchises can't have spin-offs, but they shouldn't be mooching off Mario's, just because it's popular. I'd rather see the creators spend the energy on inventing something interesting that could feed back into the Mario franchise.
You won't suddenly be hanging out with Isabelle in Mario Odyssey just because she was in MK8, if you know what I mean. Whereas someone like Waluigi, while not exactly making it to primetime yet, has gone far beyond being the silly Mario Tennis 64 extra he was created to be.

Alright alright. Thanks for a fruitful exchange of pleasantries, man.