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Topic: Pokemon Sword & Shield

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Yorumi

@Ludovsky In some sense it helps they're taking notice but the bigger problem is the excuses given are just so much absolute BS. That's the thing I would have more hope if they just came out and said "we chose to change things up and not include all pokemon." The excuses are mostly a dishonest way of appealing to people who either won't question them or don't know enough to do so. That's not a slam against those people but against game freak.

I don't care if people like the games or support this but it's almost insulting to listen to game freak whine. That's exactly what they're doing too, whining. What is so hard exactly? You have the models, you have the engine, you have a rendering pipeline, you have a sound effects and music library, and you have the one of the most most valuable IPs in the history of video games. Tell me again why it's so difficult to make a game with lower end graphics, minimal animations, and fuzzy textures that is guaranteed to sell double digit millions of copies?

Yorumi

Nintendo Network ID: yorumi

Ludovsky

Edit: apologies for all the bolded words. I always forget just how damn thick the bolding is on this website. Probably should have gone for italics or just forego trying to emphasise some of these words in the first place. It's way more aggressive than I wanted this to look like.

Thing is they don't have the model. The models might look the same than Sun and Moon but honestly? Speaking as someone who's been a 3D animation student and still have ties to people working in actual game studios now?

I mean recall how we thought Smash Bros Ultimate's graphics were the "same" than Smash Bros WiiU even if we later discovered that, no, everything had been remade under a new engine to boot.

Sun and Moon were played on a tiny 3DS screen so just how much did we really miss about the wireframe mesh, the texture resolution/etc that might have to still be "upscaled". And sincerely this is a studio who originally believe that the Switch was going to fail as l'll get into again later, so chances are there's a lot of preparations they didn't even make but in fact forced them to reset a lot of what they were preparing for.

Just database wise there are adaptations in the code and structure of libraries that have got to be made for a new console. We're looking at 800-1000 different entries for the various pokemons just coding wise and we're not even talking about actually developing the game itself. I'm amazed they actually kept the entire pokedex so long.

Like I dread to imagine the nightmare of text documents or spreadsheet files they must keep just to keep track of the whole thing. That feels like a logistical nightmare right there.

I know a lot of people compared the work of other games but.... honestly? Even franchises such as Dragon Quest with "hundreds of instantly recognizable monster designs" never bothered with featuring any and all of their designs in every single game with hundred constantly getting the "cut".

Just look a the difficulty mentionned even by studios who specializes into porting other people's IPs to new consoles even when the work with the "same" game.

Also to be honest Sword and Shield still remain a massive unknown quantity for Game Freak, just from being on the Switch alone. Recall this is the studio whose president was angry with Nintendo because he initially thought the Switch would be doomed to fail before it's released and was entirely prepared to continue making 3DS exclusives should the Switch have failed as he was predicting(and ultimately proven wrong). That's a lot of ground and prepwork they have had to catch back upon just because they didn't believe the Switch would succeed and it probably forced to literally redraft a lot of the entirety of their original plans whatever they were. Files/database/etc that were originally geared for the 3DS games' engine that have to be retooled to formats that are more Switch-friendly. Just look at all the delays we got on Dragon Quest 11 just because the original game was made on an engine version older than the updated one that would support development for Switch.

Game development is hard.

But honestly I'm not letting them go scot free on this.

They should have noticed the support of the full pokedex would be that essential to so many of the players.

They should have been more clears about what plans they had to answer the worries and desires of this crowd who remains a crucial part of this franchise, and they should have done so much sooner.

They could have simply gone out with the time and, you know, taken a leaf from the Splatoon development team. Can't have all the Pokemons at release because it's increasingly impossible to "devs-up them all" at once for release day? Then get on with the the time, announce that only the Galar dex is available at release but also confirm the National dex being added through a later big update or smaller progressive ones("Johto support", "Hoenn support", whateve name would fit. It could even have tied with stuff like "visit X location with ties to the Hoenn/etc region" adding such location as an even more complete content update to play on these additions to boot). There's a lot that could have been done that could have answered the community even if the wait might have been annoying. But with how massive the dex is I'm surprised it didn't happen sooner even if I know "post-release true content update" wasn't exactly a tradition yet at nintendo when the 3DS first released.

But they didn't and it caught them utterly offguard, this is what we're witnessing here with their attempts to provide stuff to look forward to with Home/etc.

But the backlash is still obvious so that's why I feel it'll auto-resolve itself in time even if not without a bumpy road first.
Especially if they don't want this to become that "well crafted with story/gameplay that pleased the fans but proved to be most's last game ever because that loss of support killed their interest for any games beyond it".

Perhaps they thought that perhaps if it had a "large and well-tailored pokedex with list of pokemons well-liked by the majority of fans", it might make up for their unability to support the full pokedex at release.

Heck, this is a franchise that existed since 24 years now and they never had deal with "not get everything in at release day" since all games prior that's what they were able to. So it probably never occured to them, I can perfectly imagine with such deep-set tradition, that it's okay to add content after release in the age of 20-heckdamn-19.

Perhaps this event is what will make them finally realize that, that they don't have to make release day be that "everything or nothing" kind of thing and that stuff(that were even locked exclusively to the post-endgame in many previous games of the pre-3DS era) like the national dex can become the focus of post-game development in a franchise that sells enough to actually fund a large quantity of development work even after release when the majority of sales have made up initial development cost.

And that's the thing. Development costs money obviously, but also time. They could have the money for the full pokedex but not the time.
But the thing is today you can make the time through post-release content update. And if anything that might simply be a reason to make the national dex(and ability to transfer pokemons from it) something you unlock after beating the Elite Four once the game support it. As they used to in older games.

Like said it's not like there's a lack of things they could later do even with all the reasons that got in the way of including the dex. So I am for keeping them up to task of fixing that later even if I do believe(from my own experience of how much of a logistic mess it must be) that they just couldn't make it for a 2019 release.

Edited on by Morpheel

Ludovsky

King-X

I'm actually glad this happened. Yes it's inconvenient but it's worth it to give them the lesson that we do actually have some standards. For way too long Game Freak have felt like they can do no wrong and we'll just buy all their games, their way, their premium prices.

Edited on by King-X

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Yorumi

@Ludovsky the thing with the models is people have used emulators and other sources to display the models in HD. That’s how we know about it.

In terms of a database I work for a company that does weekly updates to an online game. Every week we add about 20 or 30 items to the database, about 5 to 10 lobsters, and write about a dozen quests. Items have descriptions(longer than a Pokédex entry), stats, value, and a few other fields. We would reach 1000 new items and 500 or so quests every year, as well as a similar number of new monsters. Would you believe me if I said one person does all the database work while performing other duties during each week? Our profits are insignificant compared to game freak.

This is why I put so much blame on game freak and am so hard on them. This is why I say they’re whining. If they improve with the next game I’ll consider it but their excuses are meaningless to me.

Yorumi

Nintendo Network ID: yorumi

shadow-wolf

@Ludovsky Your theories are interesting. Honestly, I agree with you. I think Game Freak will eventually cave in and bring the national dex in a post-release update. I think the backlash here is a bit too strong for them to ignore, and I think they'll acknowledge their mistakes the same way the Mario Maker team did in regard to playing with friends online (by fixing it in a post-release update). Considering even the Japanese fanbase might not be too happy with these changes, I think there's a good chance this complaint could be eventually fixed in a post-release update ...

... OR they wait till Ultra Sword and Ultra Shield and market the National Dex as a selling point. Which would NOT be the smart move to do but you never know with Game Freak (although they have been improving their scope and ambition with the games and seemingly are listening to fan feedback, so I have hope).

shadow-wolf

iKhan

I think I would much rather have Game Freak stick to their guns about limiting the dex size, while simultaneously improving the game so that they can really justify the argument of "hey, there is too much here to update for switch"

Remember, this isn't the first time you couldn't transfer your Pokemon over. It happened between Gen 2 and 3, but people were eventually okay with it because there was a major mechanics tweak.

Currently Playing: Pokemon Crystal, The Legend of Zelda: Majora's Mask, Super Smash Bros: Ultimate, Daemon X Machina Prototype Missions

Yorumi

shadow-wolf wrote:

... OR they wait till Ultra Sword and Ultra Shield and market the National Dex as a selling point. Which would NOT be the smart move to do but you never know with Game Freak (although they have been improving their scope and ambition with the games and seemingly are listening to fan feedback, so I have hope).

I don't think this would hurt them too badly in the long run if it was truly learning from their mistakes. Yes people would complain, they'd talk about how blatant a cash grab it is an all that. They'd get over it though. If the next game after that removed pokemon again then they'd never recover.

iKhan wrote:

Remember, this isn't the first time you couldn't transfer your Pokemon over. It happened between Gen 2 and 3, but people were eventually okay with it because there was a major mechanics tweak.

Gen 3 still had all the pokemon on cart though. While you couldn't immediately catch them all you could still use them all. If you look at sales they bottomed out and never really recovered in gen 3 as well. You also didn't have the blatant gen 1 pandering in gen 3 either. When you have game freak saying you're never again going to be able to use all your pokemon, and we know how they themselves have their favorites then you realize certain pokemon are just not going to be commonly available. Finally you also have a few gens of stored frustration here that didn't exist in gen 3. So there's just a lot of differences from gen 3.

Yorumi

Nintendo Network ID: yorumi

iKhan

Yorumi wrote:

You also didn't have the blatant gen 1 pandering in gen 3 either. When you have game freak saying you're never again going to be able to use all your pokemon, and we know how they themselves have their favorites then you realize certain pokemon are just not going to be commonly available.

I strongly believe Game Freak is going to rotate the dex from gen to gen, so that all Pokemon get some time in the spotlight

Currently Playing: Pokemon Crystal, The Legend of Zelda: Majora's Mask, Super Smash Bros: Ultimate, Daemon X Machina Prototype Missions

Yorumi

iKhan wrote:

Yorumi wrote:

You also didn't have the blatant gen 1 pandering in gen 3 either. When you have game freak saying you're never again going to be able to use all your pokemon, and we know how they themselves have their favorites then you realize certain pokemon are just not going to be commonly available.

I strongly believe Game Freak is going to rotate the dex from gen to gen, so that all Pokemon get some time in the spotlight

I doubt it. We had gen 1 pandering in Sun/Moon,USun/UMoon,Let's go, and swd/shd. Heck Go was until very recently only gen 1. They've had plenty of opportunity, if anything swd/shd should be biased toward other gens since they just go done with both sun/moon and let's go, but they went right back to gen 1 again.

I know they'll mix in some other pokemon from time to time but I bet especially the somewhat less popular pokemon will be seen about once in a lifetime while I would bet nearly every game is going to have a heavy amount of gen 1 pokemon.

Yorumi

Nintendo Network ID: yorumi

jump

At the very least I'd like an in game explanation for all of the missing Pokes. Something like they were hunted to excitation as their bones are used as medicine in some countries, deforestation has led to them dying out, all of the water type Poke were strangled by plastic pack rings, they are all trapped in Pokémon Home as that region's Professor has forgotten the password to log in etc.

Nicolai wrote:

Alright, I gotta stop getting into arguments with jump. Someone remind me next time.

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Tsurii

What about not all animals/pokemon live everywhere, or are y'all chasing tigers off your lawn?

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jump

Tsurii wrote:

What about not all animals/pokemon live everywhere, or are y'all chasing tigers off your lawn?

Part of being a trainer is travelling the world to seek battles and whatnot who have other region Pokes, the post game Battle Frontier normally mentions how these trainers are from everywhere etc.

I was chasing them until I found the tiger's den and left my beer can rings about, that sorted them!

Nicolai wrote:

Alright, I gotta stop getting into arguments with jump. Someone remind me next time.

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-Green-

Just use that whole dumb multiple worlds/timelines thing Gamefreak started since ORAS. Say they never existed in that Pokéverse

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Morpheel

I do not understand the reasoning behind the "they're not in this game, ergo they have ceased to exist entirely" ideology that many fans have taken.

I mean, Luigi doesn't appear in Mario 64 and Mario Sunshine, not even a mention, but we know he still existed at that point in time.

Edited on by Morpheel

Yeah I don’t know either.

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jump

Morpheel wrote:

I mean, Luigi doesn't appear in Mario 64, not even a mention, but we know he still existed somwhere in the "universe".

And they learnt from there their mistake and included him the DS port

Nicolai wrote:

Alright, I gotta stop getting into arguments with jump. Someone remind me next time.

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Morpheel

Look forward to the Sword and Shield enhanced remake then!

Yeah I don’t know either.

Eh! My gameplay videos

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jump

Morpheel wrote:

Look forward to the Sword and Shield enhanced remake then!

That's just feeding to the complaints tho, people were expecting a full roster already for the Ultra Sword and Alpha Shield editions and calling them out on being lazy for not doing it in the first place.

Edited on by jump

Nicolai wrote:

Alright, I gotta stop getting into arguments with jump. Someone remind me next time.

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Knuckles-Fajita

I think we can safely blame a lot of this on Ishihara at the Pokemon Company. They ultimately direct GameFreak and I recall interviews even stating they determine the Pokemon typings they want and expect designs to be made.

But that man very publicly was clearly looking elsewhere for the future, and has had to backpeddle. Id be stunned if GF have had all that long to make this a Switch game.

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Ludovsky

@Morpheel Well a thing hinted was basically have Pokemon Home going "X pokemon feels like that region might be a bit too cold for itself" or similar comment if you'd tried transfering to an unsuported region.

I still feel it won't last in the long term or that they'll release something like a Stadium revival specifically for crossover of games' rosters to go the "and now all reunited together" route.

But we'll see.
If anything I don't see full inclusion until Home come out in 2020, and would specifically see it being added to "salvage" Pokemon Home if it proves unpopular enough if there's no transfer for every pokemons toward the Gen 8 games.

If anything they're hinging on Pokemon Home having features that could make it enough of a replacement for those who care about crossgenerational transfer.... if that doesn't pan out, that'll probably be further lead them to be forced into panic mode where they might have to add post-release full national dex transfer just to actually incite enough people to pick up Pokemon Home at all. After all, Yokai Watch is starting to nip at their heels now I hear and if they're not careful that might be the day they might regret not having had more foresights about the alternatives they could have taken that could have both led them to take the load of pre-release development focused on a regional dex and still include national dex in post-release update(s, if they decide it on a gradual region by region basis for exampe).

Edited on by Ludovsky

Ludovsky

Heavyarms55

@iKhan People were eventually okay with that because eventually all Pokemon were available again. It's not just the Pokemon not being transferable, its that they don't exist in the game at all. That is a difference.

But I think @Morpheel is right, even if they aren't in these games, it's not as though they have been removed from the universe entirely. Whether the games get updated in the future to support them, or post SwSh games have different mixes, they still exist.

And I still really like the idea of looking at this like rotations in card games, keeping the games fresh without having to deal with 1000+ creatures every game. I think a roster of 350-450 would be really solid.

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