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Topic: Pokemon Sword & Shield

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Yorumi

@Grumblevolcano that does add a new dynamic to the equation. Though I don't think Nintendo can exercise that kind of control over gamefreak. That would go a long way to explain why gamefreak has been talking down about pokemon lately. I kind of wonder if people in charge realize they're strangling the golden goose or if they believe it can never be killed.

@Ralizah granted it's pokemon nothing is going to hurt it but people didn't forget Starfox: Zero and Federation Force.

Yorumi

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-Green-

I don’t think nintendo is to blame for the release schedule. The Pokémon merchandise and advertising machine is likely more of the culprit. They’re constantly advertising new games, movies, shows, merchandise etc. They all promote and support each other, but are also dependent on each other. So they work under a very strict schedule

Edit: clarified

Edited on by -Green-

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CanisWolfred

-Green- wrote:

I don’t think nintendo is to blame for the release schedule. The Pokémon merchandise and advertising machine is likely more of the culprit. They’re constantly advertising new games, movies, shows, merchandise etc. They all promote and support each other, but are also dependent on each other. So they work under a very strict schedule

Edit: clarified

Exactly, there are so many factors that changing the schedules create more of a problem that it would solve. What we're left with is a compromise. It's not ideal, but it could be worse.

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Yorumi

@-Green- @CanisWolfred yeah but any way you spin it it's not good for us the fans. If they actually have to make significant compromises just to make a bonkers release schedule from a corporate bean counter it's not good for the series. I'd much rather see one awesome pokemon game per gen, even with dlc, than a half dozen mediocre ones. I guess they figure pokemon fans don't care about quality anymore.

Yorumi

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shadow-wolf

Not being able to bring all Pokémon over to the new games doesn’t bother me at all but I can see why it’s annoying people who do care. Game Freak is not an indie company who scraps by in sales; they make loads of money, and they could’ve used some of that towards hiring more people to bring the Pokémon over. And I wonder why they couldn’t have just brought over older models so that at least those could come into the game, even if they don’t have more up to date models and animations.

But personally I don’t mind, cause A) I haven’t owned a game since Diamond and Pearl (not counting Pokémon Let’s Go, which I will be selling soon) and B) because I kind of feel like my team should stay in the game it made its mark in. It feels odd to bring my Emerald team to another game because that’s the world they made their mark in so to speak, no point in bringing them into a new world that they don’t really belong in. But that’s just me.

And Game Freak really seems to be going way beyond what I expected them to do. The Wild Area, larger scope, unique themes, etc are much better than I expected so I’m really excited for these games.

Edited on by shadow-wolf

shadow-wolf

Heavyarms55

Ralizah wrote:

Dropping the news about the lack of support for numerous Pokemon from previous games during E3 was pretty smart, I think.

@Ralizah While I am not outraged, I really do think they should have been upfront about it and had that info in the Pokemon Direct. All the trailers and videos we had seen show a nice mix of Pokemon from across the generations, and we had just heard about Pokemon Home connecting Bank, PoGo, Let's Go and SwSh. So it is really easy to understand why everyone thought we'd get support for all mons.

That said, like you said, I will still be getting the game and like others have said, like pretty much everything else I have seen for it.

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Ralizah

I definitely get what the news about Pokemon Sw/Sh annoys some people. It is a little annoying. It's not a good thing. Some pushback on that is fine and even expected.

What annoys me is the internet turning it into some globe-shaking controversy, a move so devastating that people talk about quitting the fandom and wanting people to boycott the title. It's obnoxious. The Pokemon subreddit , in particular, has been a mess of apocalyptic anger and trolling since the revelation came out during E3.

Edited on by Ralizah

Ralizah

-Green-

@Ralizah That's what happens when there is no direction for this type of thing. People are just antagonizing each other at this point and not much is getting done. Genuine discussion and critique is generally lost in favor of hot takes and LULs.

I appreciate that this atleast happened to some extent. It's nice to see that these large portions of the Pokemon community can recognize Gamefreaks questionable practices over the years and kind of bring awareness to them. Sadly though, the direction the franchise will take in the future with this type of release schedule worries me.

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Eel

Well, the Pokémon fandom is just as hardcore and toxic as every other long running fandom. It’s better to just form our own opinions.

I do think it’s sad that they’ve decided to cross that line, however, I believe it was going to happen at some point, eventually.

Thankfully, my play style means it won’t make much of a difference if x Pokémon can’t be transferred. I’ve never seen much value in using old Pokémon in new files, and I don’t do competitive battles... So I can just continue playing as normal...

Edited on by Eel

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darkfenrir

My biggest problem is when they start to spread misinformation. One of the things are the anger over Lillie having multiple models and the "hundreds of encrypt/decrypt" going on or something

darkfenrir

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-Green-

Yeah the spread of misinformation is a problem, and also the dev abuse and the blame towards GameFreak. It's not the devs fault, despite some questionable design and content choices, they work under strict and demanding schedules. But there's no real direction in this thing and many of the larger influences while maybe somewhat upset by it, don't care enough, so it'll probably die off soon.

Edited on by -Green-

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CanisWolfred

Morpheel wrote:

Thankfully, my play style means it won’t make much of a difference if x Pokémon can’t be transferred. I’ve never seen much value in using old Pokémon in new files, and I don’t do competitive battles... So I can just continue playing as normal...

Same here, for the most part. I can see the appeal, I see each game as the start of a new adventure, and I'd rather have fresh Pokemon to make those adventures distinct from eachother...I can see why the anime went that route...

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Yorumi

@darkfenrir part of the reason that gets spread is confirmation bias. The programming in Sun/Moon is just awful. Like embarrassingly bad. The framerate is bad enough but watching the game spend essentially an eternity in computer terms making simple decisions is crazy. So when people see something that explains how bad it really is they latch onto it thanks to confirmation bias.

@-Green- while it's true the schedule is demanding we don't really know who is setting that schedule. Even ignoring that gamefreak does bring a lot of it on themselves. With X/Y they made all these HD future proofed models of pokemon which took extra time than necessary. The idea of doing something like that is to invest time now to save it later. Now we find that was pretty much a pure waste of time, well good.

In another vein they shouldn't really be doing a whole lot of engine work. The rendering pipeline is different on the switch but even there they should be able to use whatever Nintendo is using for their first party games. Most of the gameplay engine should be a direct copy/paste. Consoles don't have any special program languages, they use standards like c++, c#, and others. So the compiler will take care of making the new machine code. This isn't to say there was zero work requires to get the game running. However, the core 3D pokemon engine should have been made with X/Y. Moving to the switch it should have just required swapping the 3DS rendering engine with a switch rendering engine while the core gameplay engine remained intact. The pokemon models were already made in X/Y so those would port over. What should have been left was making the models for the new pokemon, making the world, writing all the text, and tweaking some things for the switch in the engine.

I'm not trying to overly trivialize things here but at the same time proper program code should be highly reusable. This is especially true when the language isn't changing. There are devs making new games on the switch that don't have an existing engine that are doing a better job than the devs who own one of if not the most profitable IP in all of gaming.

I don't even think people care that much about the missing pokemon, I think it's more the straw that breaks the camel's back. it seems like every pokemon game since X/Y has done more to anger fans. It's not going to break the success of pokemon but an IP should just not continually anger a portion of the fanbase.

Yorumi

Nintendo Network ID: yorumi

-Green-

You know, I really hope they do change around Pokémon stats and move pools this time around. Maybe even some slight typing interactions. Like Bug, Fairy and Ice. Ooooooo.

I would really enjoy that. Would like to be able to use something like Vespiquen and have it actually work as the bulky Pokémon it’s supposed to be. Oh and new fossil Pokémon. They’re like my favorite thing

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Ludovsky

I dunno if this was linked here already but I fell upon this and I'm.... cautiously optimistic:

(also, apologies for the upcoming wall of text)

https://gonintendo.com/stories/337863-game-freak-expands-on-t...

Not by what's in there mind you specifically, but the way they feel they have to respond at greater lenght than before with multiple points to sort of try to... reassure players about this "change"?

It's weird it makes me cautiously optimistic. Not about the change, but the fact they're finally taking notice of the scope of the backlash they're getting on it. I think to a degree Sword and Shield might become a "growing pains" moment for Pokemon, in a good way. That is, specifically to help them define for themselves what is important to the community... and thus plan ahead in the future the ways to satisfy these demands with what they've seen the community is okay with even if for the devs it might require a noticeable shift in their way of doing things(such as the frequent suggestion actually including stuff like true content updates post-release that could lead to the inclusion of the full national dex since many players have stated being okay with delayed support as long as support is coming).

To a degree that's the thing. If you take out timed-events, ALL pokemon games in the games could be seen as "You release it and it's done". Post-release content update as seen in Splatoon new maps and weapons aren't a thing they even had to consider in the past. That's a lot of a tradition to overcome for a studio with habits as set as Pokemon and just realizing they might not be able to get a full national dex at release must have been a symptom that they're getting to that point where they need to figure how to go forward.

They've mentioned balance worries and I think they are honest with it, though perhaps only looking at it at a surface level. The backlash might lead them to realize to realize that ultimately it's the entirety of the roster that's always been the most important for the larger part of the community well beyond what is or isn't a "trash" or "overpower" pokemon. A lot of the fans really love their less "essential" oddball pokemons.

I think they wanted to Home to really become this alternative to the full pokedex support and want it to be something that'll feature mechanics that would make it worthwhile(I wouldn't even be surprise if it included a non-balanced battling mode using sprite graphics for pokemons old and new to actually function as something that can fit on a smartphone). But at the same time I very well believe it 'won't suffice' in the eyes of the fans.

Which is what make me cautiously optimistic a full pokedex will eventually come. They always felt it would be important it be featured in some ways(hence their hopes for Home) but now the backlash confirmed their guts feeling that indeed the national dex IS indeed important in some form. So they'll try with Home... and it probably won't cut it.
That's when they'll go back to the drawing boards and try to figure it how to bring it to the core games or at least through something like a resurected pokemon stadium side-franchise. Which is what I mean by growing pains. Not for the community but for the devs having to figure out how to please the community that made this franchise such a phenomenon in the first place.

So my guess is we'll get a national dex post-release, though not until they've had initial reactions to Home to further gauge how to go forward with this.
Recall when I said pokemons game were "they make it, release it and that's it beyond timed-events for special shinies and mythicals"? That'll probably be one of the outcome of the growing pains; that just "releasing" the game and calling it a day won't cut it anymore. Thus the way forward for them might be to realize that the path forward might be the limited regional dex at release and then a regimen of post-release content update to fill out the national dex either gradually("Jotho pokemons migration phenomenon!" update) or all at once in an update much later.

It'll be a rough ride, but in a way perhaps that's the "growing pain" event the franchise need for the devs to figure out how they can continue catering to this massive phenomenon of a game.

I mean, seriously, I wouldn't want to be part of the team who even just have to write the mere code/database entries for everyone of these 800-1000 pokemons. So I understand their realization that "all at release" is increasingly just impossible.
But I hope they realize from the rocky road leading to this it doesn't have to be the only option.

There's definitely a couple of people who could be ready to wait for a Sinnoh remakes release for the full pokedex to be added to Sword and Shield as long as the full national dex does come to the game as a result.

But the sad thing though is I think it's such a process they're still in the process of trying to evaluate and gauge it'll still be months after release before we know exactly what form that will all take.

Which is again to say... it'll definitely be the growing pains moment of the franchise and I figure a lot of plans will be made, then remade, then ditched back to the drawing board. Some enacted but then clearly shown as half-compromise before something new is drafted in adittion that would finally take shape into something that will satisfy all and it might change a lot of how the devs may realizes they have to approach this whole thing from then on.

Heck, I wouldn't even be surprised if Gen 8(through either Sword&Shield or later game) was the first pokemon game to include "new regions DLCs" allowing trips to limited locations of past regions or such. Perhaps "safari tour to that Galar-owned island bordering the Jotho-region" or that kind of things as a later result next year or later.

Edited on by Ludovsky

Ludovsky

Yorumi

@Ludovsky In some sense it helps they're taking notice but the bigger problem is the excuses given are just so much absolute BS. That's the thing I would have more hope if they just came out and said "we chose to change things up and not include all pokemon." The excuses are mostly a dishonest way of appealing to people who either won't question them or don't know enough to do so. That's not a slam against those people but against game freak.

I don't care if people like the games or support this but it's almost insulting to listen to game freak whine. That's exactly what they're doing too, whining. What is so hard exactly? You have the models, you have the engine, you have a rendering pipeline, you have a sound effects and music library, and you have the one of the most most valuable IPs in the history of video games. Tell me again why it's so difficult to make a game with lower end graphics, minimal animations, and fuzzy textures that is guaranteed to sell double digit millions of copies?

Yorumi

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Ludovsky

Edit: apologies for all the bolded words. I always forget just how damn thick the bolding is on this website. Probably should have gone for italics or just forego trying to emphasise some of these words in the first place. It's way more aggressive than I wanted this to look like.

Thing is they don't have the model. The models might look the same than Sun and Moon but honestly? Speaking as someone who's been a 3D animation student and still have ties to people working in actual game studios now?

I mean recall how we thought Smash Bros Ultimate's graphics were the "same" than Smash Bros WiiU even if we later discovered that, no, everything had been remade under a new engine to boot.

Sun and Moon were played on a tiny 3DS screen so just how much did we really miss about the wireframe mesh, the texture resolution/etc that might have to still be "upscaled". And sincerely this is a studio who originally believe that the Switch was going to fail as l'll get into again later, so chances are there's a lot of preparations they didn't even make but in fact forced them to reset a lot of what they were preparing for.

Just database wise there are adaptations in the code and structure of libraries that have got to be made for a new console. We're looking at 800-1000 different entries for the various pokemons just coding wise and we're not even talking about actually developing the game itself. I'm amazed they actually kept the entire pokedex so long.

Like I dread to imagine the nightmare of text documents or spreadsheet files they must keep just to keep track of the whole thing. That feels like a logistical nightmare right there.

I know a lot of people compared the work of other games but.... honestly? Even franchises such as Dragon Quest with "hundreds of instantly recognizable monster designs" never bothered with featuring any and all of their designs in every single game with hundred constantly getting the "cut".

Just look a the difficulty mentionned even by studios who specializes into porting other people's IPs to new consoles even when the work with the "same" game.

Also to be honest Sword and Shield still remain a massive unknown quantity for Game Freak, just from being on the Switch alone. Recall this is the studio whose president was angry with Nintendo because he initially thought the Switch would be doomed to fail before it's released and was entirely prepared to continue making 3DS exclusives should the Switch have failed as he was predicting(and ultimately proven wrong). That's a lot of ground and prepwork they have had to catch back upon just because they didn't believe the Switch would succeed and it probably forced to literally redraft a lot of the entirety of their original plans whatever they were. Files/database/etc that were originally geared for the 3DS games' engine that have to be retooled to formats that are more Switch-friendly. Just look at all the delays we got on Dragon Quest 11 just because the original game was made on an engine version older than the updated one that would support development for Switch.

Game development is hard.

But honestly I'm not letting them go scot free on this.

They should have noticed the support of the full pokedex would be that essential to so many of the players.

They should have been more clears about what plans they had to answer the worries and desires of this crowd who remains a crucial part of this franchise, and they should have done so much sooner.

They could have simply gone out with the time and, you know, taken a leaf from the Splatoon development team. Can't have all the Pokemons at release because it's increasingly impossible to "devs-up them all" at once for release day? Then get on with the the time, announce that only the Galar dex is available at release but also confirm the National dex being added through a later big update or smaller progressive ones("Johto support", "Hoenn support", whateve name would fit. It could even have tied with stuff like "visit X location with ties to the Hoenn/etc region" adding such location as an even more complete content update to play on these additions to boot). There's a lot that could have been done that could have answered the community even if the wait might have been annoying. But with how massive the dex is I'm surprised it didn't happen sooner even if I know "post-release true content update" wasn't exactly a tradition yet at nintendo when the 3DS first released.

But they didn't and it caught them utterly offguard, this is what we're witnessing here with their attempts to provide stuff to look forward to with Home/etc.

But the backlash is still obvious so that's why I feel it'll auto-resolve itself in time even if not without a bumpy road first.
Especially if they don't want this to become that "well crafted with story/gameplay that pleased the fans but proved to be most's last game ever because that loss of support killed their interest for any games beyond it".

Perhaps they thought that perhaps if it had a "large and well-tailored pokedex with list of pokemons well-liked by the majority of fans", it might make up for their unability to support the full pokedex at release.

Heck, this is a franchise that existed since 24 years now and they never had deal with "not get everything in at release day" since all games prior that's what they were able to. So it probably never occured to them, I can perfectly imagine with such deep-set tradition, that it's okay to add content after release in the age of 20-heckdamn-19.

Perhaps this event is what will make them finally realize that, that they don't have to make release day be that "everything or nothing" kind of thing and that stuff(that were even locked exclusively to the post-endgame in many previous games of the pre-3DS era) like the national dex can become the focus of post-game development in a franchise that sells enough to actually fund a large quantity of development work even after release when the majority of sales have made up initial development cost.

And that's the thing. Development costs money obviously, but also time. They could have the money for the full pokedex but not the time.
But the thing is today you can make the time through post-release content update. And if anything that might simply be a reason to make the national dex(and ability to transfer pokemons from it) something you unlock after beating the Elite Four once the game support it. As they used to in older games.

Like said it's not like there's a lack of things they could later do even with all the reasons that got in the way of including the dex. So I am for keeping them up to task of fixing that later even if I do believe(from my own experience of how much of a logistic mess it must be) that they just couldn't make it for a 2019 release.

Edited on by Eel

Ludovsky

King-X

I'm actually glad this happened. Yes it's inconvenient but it's worth it to give them the lesson that we do actually have some standards. For way too long Game Freak have felt like they can do no wrong and we'll just buy all their games, their way, their premium prices.

Edited on by King-X

Currently Playing: Pokémon Sword / Atelier Ryza

Yorumi

@Ludovsky the thing with the models is people have used emulators and other sources to display the models in HD. That’s how we know about it.

In terms of a database I work for a company that does weekly updates to an online game. Every week we add about 20 or 30 items to the database, about 5 to 10 lobsters, and write about a dozen quests. Items have descriptions(longer than a Pokédex entry), stats, value, and a few other fields. We would reach 1000 new items and 500 or so quests every year, as well as a similar number of new monsters. Would you believe me if I said one person does all the database work while performing other duties during each week? Our profits are insignificant compared to game freak.

This is why I put so much blame on game freak and am so hard on them. This is why I say they’re whining. If they improve with the next game I’ll consider it but their excuses are meaningless to me.

Yorumi

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