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Topic: Metroid Prime 4: The Long(er) Wait

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ThanosReXXX

@Zkibu Likewise. My comment wasn't meant as weird or impolite, and it also isn't weird at all: it's factual.

Metroid games have always been about a lone space traveler, exploring space stations, and gradually unlocking rooms and upgrades. The corridors also have nothing to do with hardware limits on previous generations hardware (although Retro Studios did very smartly use the corridors to mask the loading of new areas to make the game feel more seamless, but that's another discussion), but with emphasizing that feeling of isolation and loneliness.

When we're going to talk about weird, then that would be doing a BotW-style game with a Metroid skin, seeing as they are two game series with two completely different premises and playing methods.

In Metroid, which is after all Aliens-inspired (movies AND games who, regardless of the now superior technology/hardware also still largely take place in cramped corridors), it is supposed to be somewhat scary, lonely, claustrophobic and boxed off, whereas in the Zelda games, it's all about finding stuff in larger areas, exploring these areas, meeting other characters and so on, which is FAR removed from being lonely and isolated.

In Metroid, the aim is to find upgrades/abilities to be able to unlock the next area, and to find that save room where you can recharge and so on and so on. And every element in the games, both the visuals and the music/sound effects, are also meant to emphasize that lonely isolation, it creates the right atmosphere.

In BotW, sneaking up to a camp of bokoblins, and taking them out, either from afar, with a bit of clever puzzling/strategy, or, if you're strong enough, by just jumping into the middle of them and slashing away, is usually the way to go.

So, two completely different atmospheres, and two completely different ways of playing. If Metroid would be like BotW, then that would actually hurt the IP more than you seem to think, because it just isn't about that, and seeing as I'm certainly not the only one thinking that, as evidenced by the reactions, I think you have a rather deviating opinion.

You certainly have a right to have your own opinion, don't get me wrong, but that doesn't mean that it is a sure-fire remedy for what you personally think is wrong with the Metroid franchise.

'The console wars are like boobs. Sony and Microsoft fight over which ones look the nicest and Nintendo's are the most fun to play with.'

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EvilLucario

On the other hand, if we do get more ORGANIC soft locks (not the ones in Super Metroid where you abuse glitches like the Mockball, although wall jumping isn't a glitch so I can let that slide, but more along the lines of Zero Mission's hidden pathways to skip some stuff), that may be interesting.

More optional powerups inline with something like the Flamethrower from Prime 1 and Sunburst from Prime 2 could also be very nice for exploring off the beaten path.

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Octane

Delibheel wrote:

Variety is good~

Not every game needs to follow the same design rules and trends.

This. Except for when people start putting pineapple on pizza.

Octane

EvilLucario

@Delibheel Fusion/Prime 3: went for a more linear, story-focused game
Prime 2: dark world theme to add more layers of exploration
Even Other M: a totally different direction for combat that could have worked if it had the ability to play with the Nunchuk...

Man I'm still salty about Other M. It had so much potential and there were so many good ideas, but it just fell flat on execution.

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Octane

Other M was alright. I enjoyed it.

Octane

ThanosReXXX

@Delibheel While joining this discussion, I actually have been thinking about the possibility of adding some space battles, with the pirates, or what not, and how that would/could impact the game, but I don't think they should make the "on the ground" bits open world, because that would be missing the whole point of "Metroidvania" entirely.

I'm just going to paste that DF Retro video here again, because it perfectly explains the how and why of the reasons why the Metroid series is so good, and why it works as it is now, rather than being open world:
(and some people may have missed it, seeing as the number of comments after I first posted it, quickly buried it under several pages of new posts)

Edited on by ThanosReXXX

'The console wars are like boobs. Sony and Microsoft fight over which ones look the nicest and Nintendo's are the most fun to play with.'

Nintendo Network ID: ThanosReXX

EvilLucario

@Octane Yeah I don't think it's a complete dumpster fire either (that's mostly reserved for the story which I can ignore). The gameplay is alright but could have been so much better considering it's freaking Team Ninja, who made Ninja Gaiden. We could have finally gotten a fantastic action game with a protagonist that mainly uses long-range combat instead of close-quarters like Bayonetta or God Hand.

Although the blame doesn't lie with them, it's more with Nintendo for forcing the sideways Wii Remote.

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Octane

@EvilLucario Metroid Prime 4 only playable with a sideways Joy-Con confirmed

Octane

ThanosReXXX

@Octane I can already hear the faint echoes of potential whining...

'The console wars are like boobs. Sony and Microsoft fight over which ones look the nicest and Nintendo's are the most fun to play with.'

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Zkibu

@EvilLucario Yes we have, the disinterest in the market place and low quality games. You do realize that there won't be another one if it don't start to sell.

Just to be sure, I am not talking about some static sandbox with monotonous missions like Ubisoft games. I am describing timeless classics like Ultima VII, Ultima Underworld, The Legend of Zelda and Breath of the wild. Dark Souls is actually good reference point because like Dark Souls Metroid is originally tailor made for experienced player. It's about time to differentiate, Nintendo should do better than tons of indie developers. The Market is saturated with Super Metroid-clones.

It's no surprise that in these forums people are really passionately against change. I remember Zelda fans being absolutely against everything new (or perhaps returning to roots). Fast forward to Botw and Zelda is mainstream again.

Edited on by Zkibu

Zkibu

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EvilLucario

@Zkibu How are you drawing parallels between "linearity of games" to quality? What the hell is that jump in logic? There are some fantastic games that simply didn't sell. Rayman Origins and Legends both didn't sell that well initially despite being good games, for example. Need I bring up EarthBound's initial release? Beyond Good & Evil? The list goes on.

BotW didn't even change that much anyway. All it did was go back to Zelda 1's design ethos and make it fresh again, while further fleshing out ideas made in A Link Between Worlds. Ditto for Odyssey to 64 and Sunshine.

While I'm not against change (see Fusion), I'm not for change that removes a core ingredient of a series for the worse or doesn't respect it. Even since the original Metroid, hard locks have been a thing with the Morph Ball, Bombs, Missiles, etc. Ditching that for an open world setting which can't have hard locks blocking off a lot of areas goes against that.

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Zkibu

@ThanosReXXX There you go. Much better, still perhaps some excercise with the politeness is needed. No idea why so hostile reaction buddy. Like I said I wasn't trying to attack someone's favourite games. I am just worried about my favourite franchise and trying to figure to solutions for fun. If I am wrong then I am wrong. About your post:

First part we agree, but for some reason you contradict yourself. You know the corridors are there to mask the hardware limitations. The enemies can't follow you to the another room for example. I never said that the world should be excactly like Hyrule field. There can still be places Tallon Overworld, Torvus Bog, Norfair, Brinstar and even that Wrecked ship. It would be still about exploring ominous places. Removing artificial blocks wouldn't destroy that. Why there even would be doors all over the planet? The Metroids are certainly not using them.

Player tries to find better gear and new places in Zelda and Metroid. Not very different premises to me. However you mention the difference in feeling and atmosphere. When I said that the open world suited well for Metroid. I meant the concept, i never meant it should play excactly like Zelda. Player is representing completely different characters and different arsenals. I honestly thought that would be a no brainer.

Obviously forums or this one forum does not represent the market place. This is just a bubble so pretty much what we say here don't matter outside of this place. If someone is disagreeing with me here I can certainly live with it.

Zkibu

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Zkibu

@EvilLucario I certainly didn't do that. Most popular Metroids are the ones with more freedom. The less popular are more linear. It's not that hard to figure out what the Metroid players want. Still Other M and Federation Forces are bad videogames despite them being linear.

I wonder why didn't you mention Super Metroid? Did you know that it wasn't popular when it came out? It was too damn easy, remember Metroid at that point was for the experienced player. Now of course it is respected for it's design, perhaps thanks to the popularity of metroidvania-genre. Sometimes the game is just wrong for it's market.

Nintendo devs mentioned with BOTW that they wanted to go back to the roots. It has nothing to do about what they wanted to do. The backlash was so huge after the SKyward Sword that the audience forced them to go back.

Nobody is going to remove Morph ball, missiles and supermissiles, they would be used as a weapon instead of keys.

Zkibu

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EvilLucario

@Zkibu Oh yes, Super Metroid was indeed a very good example of misplaced market. But no, I don't think linearity has anything to do popularity because that's short-sighted and only pins it to one area. Fusion, for example, is up there with Zero Mission (which is more non-linear) in terms of fan popularity despite the linearity. When people criticize games like Super Metroid and Zero Mission, it's because they're too easy. Prime 3 was more popular than Prime 2 on release with fans, etc, despite being easier than Prime 1/2.

Missiles/etc are dual-purpose for both unlocking parts of the environment AND combat-utility. That's what makes Metroid upgrades special - not only could stuff like the Screw Attack destroy common enemies, but you could destroy blocks that needed it. Missiles are strong almost everywhere, Speed Booster increased movement options while clearing obstacles, etc. They're used as BOTH weapons and keys.

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ThanosReXXX

DISCLAIMER:
None of what is written below, should be read as if it is said in an angry or insulting tone.

Hope that helps...

@Zkibu No offense, but I have no idea what you're talking about, since none of what I said was offensive, or meant as such, and in all honesty, while you're accusing me of not being polite, you may possibly not even be aware that you're addressing me with somewhat of a belittling tone, so I'd say some looking in the mirror is required, before you point at others...

I think it is a combination of you being the new guy here, so not knowing how this community works and/or handles each other, and English not being your native language. That's all okay, though, so not a knock against you, but some consideration before you try to label people of whatever, might not be such a bad idea.

And sorry, but no, I don't contradict myself, and I never do. From your reaction, I'm going to assume, for now, that you didn't watch that video, or that you didn't watch it and really absorbed what point it is trying to get across.

And I don't know what to tell you, but if you don't see that many differences between how the Zelda and Metroid franchises work, then I think that there's just no real open discussion possible, because you're largely just sticking to your point, offering it as what you seem to think is the only valid one, while everyone but you thinks that it actually is.

And the game examples you listed, are all rpg-like games, so indeed more like Zelda than Metroid. Gameplay differences aside, I simply don't think that a Metroid game should be structured like that, because, like others have also already tried to point out, it would take away from what a Metroid game should actually feel like.

And yes, of course this forum is only a relatively small community, but so is the Metroid fan base as a whole.
The games have never sold as much as other Nintendo series, not even remotely, so the two are pretty much balanced. The dedicated fan group wants a new Metroid Prime, and they want it done right, I don't think anyone here or on any other site who loves Metroid Prime, is now all of a sudden looking for the series to change into Metroid: Breath of the Chozo or something like that.

On a side note: I can't speak for the others, but for me personally, it's not about being against change by default. It's about being against change when it serves no purpose. As the old saying goes: "if it ain't broke, don't fix it",
and Metroid needs no fixing, much less transforming into an open world.

And considering it's roots and inspiration, it would also seem that there really isn't much merit to it, and the potential benefits may be far outnumbered by the negatives that it could potentially create, which could scare away the loyal fans, and make the fan base even smaller as it already is.

As for enemies not being able to follow you after a door has closed: that's a rather weak point, seeing as even Zelda has that: rooms are locked off, once Link enters, and only open again when the puzzle is solved or the fight is won, so I wouldn't really see that as something supporting your argument.

Edited on by ThanosReXXX

'The console wars are like boobs. Sony and Microsoft fight over which ones look the nicest and Nintendo's are the most fun to play with.'

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Zkibu

@ThanosReXXX oh boy, seriously? You were the one who was labeling and picking the tone in our little conversation. You literally started by saying that I know nothing about Metroid. Besides I am not new in here. I just spend more time in Arcade competition thread.

The original basic premises of Zelda and Metroid share SOME similarities. Of course there are still differences between the two franchises. I even said that in my last post to you. I mentioned the open world concept and adopting that to Metroid instead of just putting Samus' helmet on Link's head and Call it Breath of the Chozo. You didn't read that part or you didn't understand.

About the arguments. All I have heard this far that for some reason the locking is essential to Metroid, which I just don't agree. Oh and some anecdotes. I am not talking about the personal tastes. I am just considering what could be the best for Metroid's future. If the last good game is from the year 2007 there is definately some serious fixing needed. The fanbase is already scared away.

Can you please explain your penultimate paragraph? For example you could perhaps explain why do you feel that the negatives would outnumber the merits?

Zkibu

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kkslider5552000

I will say, I feel like one of the reasons everyone hasn't been particularly angry about this delay is that no one could be that mad about it by this point. If this had happened sooner, it would've been a bad sign for Metroid after Other M. If this had happened later it would feel like they had cancelled a completed game (or had wasted way too much time on a game they weren't going to release). But instead it's been so long, that 11+ years after Prime 3, an extra couple of years barely even matters. Thank god they never showed anything about the game as well, that turned out for the best bizarrely enough.

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HobbitGamer

I just decided to look over the last two pages. And I've learned a few things.
-BotW is a 'timeless classic'
-Hardlock progression is somehow not considered the same as 'requiring better items' or 'having stronger enemies'
-If you enjoy things the way they are, you just don't like change
-@ThanosReXXX insults people with simple words
-Ultima is still somehow relevant.
Untitled

#TeamPineapple
#MeatAndGreet

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ThanosReXXX

@Zkibu I see you completely ignored my genuine disclaimer there. That wasn't a joke: I was dead serious, hoping that it wouldn't result in another (seemingly) offended reply. Oh, well... can't win 'em all, I suppose...

I wasn't picking on you, I stated in general that people who want the mechanics of the Metroid games to change, don't know or understand what the games are about. I did not direct my message solely to you. I would have tagged you otherwise. I was just agreeing with @EvilLucario, that's all.

And no offense, but no one likes to be belittled or getting a virtual (and rather sarcastic) pat on the shoulder for apparently doing better at being polite...

AGAIN, and try and understand it this time, please. In NO comment of mine, was I offensive, nor did I intend to.
I clearly stated "likewise" in my reply to you, concerning wanting to have a normal discussion, but you either keep reading me wrong, or you're cherry-picking stuff out of my comments to support whatever point you're trying to make concerning the way I'm communicating.

And allow me to rephrase: maybe you're not ALL new, but you're still relatively new, compared to most of us that you're now in discussion with, who have been subscribed here for far longer than you. We're not easily offended in general, and you should be able to take some criticism. No one ever died from being criticized, but if you're not able to take punches, then perhaps you shouldn't deal any either, whether intended or not.

As for the benefits being outweighed by the negatives, that is something that I already mentioned in all of my previous comments, and so has @EvilLucario. The whole eerie, isolated and claustrophobic atmosphere that IS Metroid, would vanish all but completely, if they would turn it into some large, open world game.
I'm sorry, but I don't know any simpler way to say it.

I think that I've previously already gone into quite some detail, but apparently, that wasn't enough.
And consider the source material, and the inspiration that the game got from the Aliens movies that I mentioned before: it was a VERY clear and undeniable example for the reason for the confined spaces/corridors, which also showed that limitations of hardware aren't (really and/or necessarily) a reason for having those in the game.
It's simply about creating a certain atmosphere and setting a certain tone.

One that perfectly fits with the whole lonely, isolated bounty hunter/mercenary setting, and one that you simply could not recreate in an entirely open world-like setting.

I think that most of us can agree that ever since the Prime trilogy, the subsequent games haven't really stood out as epitomes of brilliance, so no one is debating that, but just because bad decisions were made with those particular games, doesn't mean that we have to completely restructure the whole foundation of the series,
to accommodate an open world setting.

The Prime series is still very highly regarded, and as such, I think it's pretty safe to say that most Metroid Prime fans will simply want another good game along those lines, with some improvements here and there, and of course with shiny new graphics, but other than that, there's really no need for something wildly different from the previous three Prime games.

Edited on by ThanosReXXX

'The console wars are like boobs. Sony and Microsoft fight over which ones look the nicest and Nintendo's are the most fun to play with.'

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