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Topic: Super Mario Odyssey

Posts 841 to 860 of 2,106

Haru17

Untitled

Hey look I found better, transparent water in a cel shaded game where you can't swim underwater.

@Octane I am just assuming there will be a boo house level because it's a Mario game, I don't have and special knowledge that there is one and wouldn't post it without spoiler tags if I did. The other thing was shown in the Nintendo Direct, do I have to use tags for that too?

Edited on by Haru17

Don't hate me because I'm bnahabulous.

Octane

@Haru17 It's fine in that case. I have no idea what's been revealed so far.

Ōkami isn't cel shaded though.

And the water looks a bit out of place in some areas. The thick outlines of the environment are in stark contrast with the clear transparent water.

Edit: That image didn't reveal too much... Didn't know that power-up was in the game though, but it's fine I think.

Edited on by Octane

Octane

Haru17

Octane wrote:

Ōkami isn't cel shaded though.

0_o

I mean, it isn't in this video, but that version looked a little different... Release Okami literally has black outlines that appear and disappear as you rotate the camera around the characters, how is that not cel shading?

Don't hate me because I'm bnahabulous.

Octane

@Haru17 Black outlines don't define cel shading: https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/6/6d/The_Legend_of_...

It has to do with how the models are shaded (it's in the name!). Cel shading uses one single colour for shading (exceptions do exist), as opposed to a gradient. Notice how Link's hair is either yellow or dark yellow. The shading colour is always the same. Same with Link's clothes, either a light blue, or a dark blue for shaded areas:

Untitled

It's the reason why WWHD isn't cel shaded, notice how there's a colour gradient over Link's face, or at the underside of his hair? You can clearly see where his face ''ends'' and where his neck starts. You can't differentiate that in the model above, it's all one solid block of the same colour.

Untitled

Ōkami uses a (regular) gradient shading, with black outlines in this case. Clearly visible on the save mirror or the legs of the torches in this image:

Untitled

Edited on by Octane

Octane

Kimyonaakuma

@Haru17 While the Galaxy games had nice looking water, it wasn't that complicated. It might of had a nice shader but it was still pretty much just a flat plane that moved up and down and there were only a few simple textures.

I'll have to agree with what people said above and say that the Wind Waker's water was a stylistic choice. I don't think that game even had any transparent materials, and fair enough because it would look weird with that cell shader.

I'm impressed with the dynamic waves in Odyssey but it I still prefer the water in Pikmin 3 as it had interacted with the environment and refracted the light. However that would be hard to do for large lakes and oceans and wouldn't mix with the Mario art style. Breath of the Wild was a step in the right direction but the way that it interacted with Link was disappointing. Not being able to go underwater was also a shame.

Okami was a nice looking game but the water was not one of them in my opinion. The parts that jump out of the water looked nice but the main body of it was meh.

I usually write WAAAAY TOO MUCH!
...so I'll apologise now in advance.

Haru17

@Octane Oh, well, alright. You know what I mean though: A cartoon lookalike game that uses bold, solid colors instead of more naturalistic art. Okami doesn't use cel-shading to look like animated drawn art, it just uses colors, 2D sprites, and the borders we discussed. I don't really care about the specific shadow rendering — we really need a distinct term for that style of game art. Thanks for the explanation nonetheless.

Anyway, water doesn't typically have very discernible shadow effects on it, so I stand by what I said. It's just that their commonality is an anime style, not a cel-shaded one.

Don't hate me because I'm bnahabulous.

Octane

@Haru17 Looking at Ōkami again, I'm almost positive the game doesn't even use a lighting system and all the shades are texture based. But that's completely besides the point.

I get what you're saying though, but I think it would look out of place in Wind Waker.

Octane

Dezzy

The definitions war has returned

Converted from Sony to Nintendo during 7th gen and never looked back.

Kimyonaakuma

@Dezzy Does this happen often?

@Octane If you go through all of the models in the game (like I spent too many hours doing, just to never use or look at again) all of the models are just textures without any shaders. The only exceptions are the outlines on some models but it's still a relatively simple effect. Apart from that it's all just some really impressive texture work and some shadows.

I usually write WAAAAY TOO MUCH!
...so I'll apologise now in advance.

Dezzy

@Kimyonaakuma

Define "often"

Converted from Sony to Nintendo during 7th gen and never looked back.

Kimyonaakuma

@Dezzy Often = frequently

..or daily, weekly, monthly ect

I usually write WAAAAY TOO MUCH!
...so I'll apologise now in advance.

Haru17

Have I mentioned how open world is a genre?

Don't hate me because I'm bnahabulous.

Henmii

Everyone seems over the moon about those different costumes, but while they look cool they don't do anything (besides opening up certain areas). So in that regard they are totally pointless. I also don't get why they chose for kingdom coins AND normal coins. Why not just all normal coins? I don't get it...
The transformations are cool though, and I also like the idea of entering certain areas of kingdoms when you are in another kingdom (though maybe not painting-hopping style, but more like Banjo Tooie). On the other hand, maybe they should have just made it 100% open-world (they didn't have the guts to do that for some reason, but it seems like they where almost there with those big worlds). Oh, and I want to see Bean bean kingdom, Sarasaland kingdom and maybe the Waffle kingdom (lol), though that looks unlikely. Anyway, I'll get it down the line of course. But not this year since I'll buy a Switch next year ( or maybe even later. Also depends on price of the Switch, wich won't go down soon).

One last thing: I don't know what kind of contraption that is on the beach level, but it looks very cool. And of course that picture of Mario sleeping beside the t-rex. Nice!

Edited on by Henmii

Henmii

SLIGEACH_EIRE

@Octane Done.

Sorry, I hadn't noticed the costumes until your comment. Now, I've spoiled it for myself. I'm not sure EDGE should have shown them.

Edited on by SLIGEACH_EIRE

SLIGEACH_EIRE

Nintendo Network ID: SLIGEACH_EIRE

Snaplocket

@Henmii I don't think open-world is the best option for this kind of game. Platformers work best in self-contained environments. The closest thing to an open world platformer are the Jak games and even those had their own self-contained levels. Open-world can be great when done right (BOTW) but a lot of the time, self-contained levels or linearity is a better idea.

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Maxz

I think it's fair to say that many of the specific challenges found in platforming games lend themselves to focused, directed, self-contained environments. However, the good thing about an open-world game is that it offers plenty of space to embed these areas within it.

Odyssey seems like a sensible mix of truly 'open' open-world areas, and more confined spaces offering specific challenges.

It doesn't offer a 'seamless' open world experience of (for example) Breath of the Wild, but in going for a 'hybrid' approach - by inserting tight, linear 'challenge-zones' into wider kingdoms - I'm hoping we can literally get the best of both worlds.

Mario's acrobat-tastic moveset lends itself just as well to nail-biting, pixel-perfect platforming as it does to joyously unfettered exploration, and I t's a balance Nintendo have toyed with ever since 64. No 3D Mario game has ever been truly 'open-world', nor truly 'linear' either. I feel Odyssey continues this trend, even if it places more emphasis on the former than any game before it.

It might be useful shorthand to call it an 'open-world Mario game' - especially in relation to the 3D Mario games that preceded it - but I don't feel we should be using the term too earnestly in a wider sense.

Really though, I need to get my hands on the game before I start proselytising on 'correct terminology'.

Really. I need to get my hands on the game. Really really.

Edited on by Maxz

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Haru17

Well I for one am glad they're getting away from the episode-restricted, load-in-from-a-menu format. I hope there are still episodes that alter the world in the quests within each region, but the more a game can put you into a world and away from a menu, the better. I do kinda wish there was still a hub world though.

It really is quite similar to Monster Hunter: World in the respect that they're taking steps like moons not kicking you out of the level (contrast with World's free hunting and being able to change weapons or eat within a hunting ground). Not to mention the fact that both series have previous installments with similar immersive ambitions that were more limited in some respects and criticized for lack of content — Sunshine and Tri, respectively.

But about Odyssey exclusively, I've always liked using the term 'sandbox' for games with larger environments which might not all be connected to each other but which have a lot of things to play around with. I feel like Windfall Island is a good example of this. It's a relatively small play space, so when you're there you're not doing the waiting it takes to travel in TWW or Breath of the Wild.

Games like Breath, Xenoblade, and Skyrim are distinct experiences for me because of all the time spent walking and the emphasis on graphics. They're simply too long to be sandbox or very pick-up-and-play. For most games, I like the rich, concentrated maps of a sandbox. They're just great to mess about with and explore, but explore in a way that doesn't take four-ever.

Also, eleven days.

Edited on by Haru17

Don't hate me because I'm bnahabulous.

Maxz

@Haru17 I agree a term is useful for exactly the sort of games you've described, and I'm happy to go along with 'sandbox' in lieu of an agreed upon alternative.

There was a period where 'sandbox' was the go-to term for games like Minecraft (and even Gary's Mod), where the act of shaping the worlds was as important as playing in them. It was almost shorthand for 'comes with a creation tool'.

The term Nintendo used at E3 to distinguish 64, Sunshine, and now Odyssey from the more linear 3D platformers was (verbatim) '箱庭/hakoniwa', which means 'box garden' or 'miniature garden'. You can stick it into Google to get a feel for the word.

Untitled

Perhaps something like 'diorama worlds', or 'snow globe worlds' would be a decent equivalent. Although the latter might be biased towards ice levels.

But anyway, I think you've really clearly and eloquently outlined what makes Odyssey (and others) distinct from games we'd typically describe as 'open world', and I'm happy to use 'sandbox' to describe that for the time being.

Woo definitions!

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