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Topic: Disappointed with how many games aren't completely on the card

Posts 21 to 40 of 43

StuTwo

The thing with the MMLC release is that the value in buying it physically is to have a high quality permanent collection piece. Making it half download (probably to nix reselling) completely negates that.

I’d love to have the collection available on my Switch just for the convenience of playing the games but I think the rational thing to do is to wait for a good eShop sale.

StuTwo

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subpopz

MFD wrote:

though it is really easy to just point at SD cards and say "Get one of those" that doesn't change the fact that the consumer foots the bill here.

That's a moot point against SD cards - the customer will foot the bill no matter what. If Switch had a much larger internal memory, the Switch itself would have cost more. If all games were all on large carts or in dual cart packages, they will have higher retail price. No matter which way you go, we will be paying for the storage.
I'm not defending what some companies are doing though, especially in the case of MM Legacy, because I would gladly foot a slightly higher price to have 100% on cart rather than this half/half companies are doing.
With SD cards in general, I like it that we don't pay upfront for storage that we may not use and each user can buy an SD card that suits them. Inherent flaws in how the Switch works prevents it from being ideal though (like allowing save files to be put onto SD rather than internal).

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Dizzy_Boy

@Octane I understand that, but if enough people refuse to buy games because parts of games are missing from the cartridge, devs aren't gonna continue making a loss just because the Switch is selling well.
I hope I'm wrong, and enough people still buy the games regardless. I want there to be 3rd party support.

Edited on by Dizzy_Boy

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NEStalgia

@Agriculture There's 4 factors at play that lead to this.

1: In cases like L.A. Noire, WWE2K18 that's the unfortunate reality of how bad western publishers have sunk. People blamed the size/cost of Switch cards but in reality that's the way they delivered the game on ALL platforms: Switch, PS4, XBox1, PC. Partial games on physical is now 2K's standard practice, among others. It's horrible, and it's disgusting and this is an abuse of the consumer because they can. It's not even a case where the game had to be shipped for financial reasons before development was done. It's a 6 year old game ported forward.

2: In the case of Doom, it's the economics of Switch cards versus optical media....they could buy a smaller cheaper card that way and make more money. However Doom did it really well. Why? Because only the part of the game that requires the internet to use at all is locked behind the internet. Not playing online because your internet sucks? No download needed (though it downloads it if you want the motion/audio patch so I guess you're stuck downloading it anyway.) Can't download it anymore because the servers are gone? It's the online portion anyway, so you couldn't be able to play that part regardless the campaign still works fine. And the online portions are usually subject to continuing changes and patches by nature, so most of the files in that download would be downloaded in other patches over time anyway, even if an old version were already on the cart. So that's a really fair compromise.

3: Cases like Bayonetta or Resident Evil, I'm not happy they don't include a larger or second cart, but given cart costs and the fact you're getting multiple games for the price of one, that's more acceptable...HOWEVER....It would be more fair if it weren't a download code subject to DRM and instead installed as a patch, playable with the cart loaded, so you could install it on any machine you run the cart on. Doing it as a code really breaks it.

4: Used games. So much of this is about trying to kill the second hand market in "creative" ways that hides it from the consumer.....the industry feels they're losing SO much money on second hand and all this and DLC etc tied to digital DRM is a sneaky way of making you pay the publisher for the used game if significant content needs to be re-bought to move the cart/disc between accounts. It's a sneakier way of doing what XBox 1 was originally going to do with a $30 fee to play a used game to re-activate the license. We ended up with that very program on all consoles anyway when publishers figured out they could ram it through with consumers as "DLC" and "unlocks" Megaman is worthless without that code, so it won't be appealing used....and THAT is the real goal.

NEStalgia

SKTTR

darkfenrir wrote:

@Agriculture I thought LA Noire works without downloads and it's just downloads are all the extras? (Like DLC and stuff?)

I don't know exactly how much of the game needs to be downloaded, but the game can be played without the download. I confirm at least the first four missions are on the cartridge and playable without a download.
However, without the download you get the audio-out-of-sync cutscene-glitch. It's not fun to watch cutscenes out of sync but the humongous download fixes that.

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Agriculture

NEStalgia wrote:

@Agriculture There's 4 factors at play that lead to this.

1: In cases like L.A. Noire, WWE2K18 that's the unfortunate reality of how bad western publishers have sunk. People blamed the size/cost of Switch cards but in reality that's the way they delivered the game on ALL platforms: Switch, PS4, XBox1, PC. Partial games on physical is now 2K's standard practice, among others. It's horrible, and it's disgusting and this is an abuse of the consumer because they can. It's not even a case where the game had to be shipped for financial reasons before development was done. It's a 6 year old game ported forward.

2: In the case of Doom, it's the economics of Switch cards versus optical media....they could buy a smaller cheaper card that way and make more money. However Doom did it really well. Why? Because only the part of the game that requires the internet to use at all is locked behind the internet. Not playing online because your internet sucks? No download needed (though it downloads it if you want the motion/audio patch so I guess you're stuck downloading it anyway.) Can't download it anymore because the servers are gone? It's the online portion anyway, so you couldn't be able to play that part regardless the campaign still works fine. And the online portions are usually subject to continuing changes and patches by nature, so most of the files in that download would be downloaded in other patches over time anyway, even if an old version were already on the cart. So that's a really fair compromise.

3: Cases like Bayonetta or Resident Evil, I'm not happy they don't include a larger or second cart, but given cart costs and the fact you're getting multiple games for the price of one, that's more acceptable...HOWEVER....It would be more fair if it weren't a download code subject to DRM and instead installed as a patch, playable with the cart loaded, so you could install it on any machine you run the cart on. Doing it as a code really breaks it.

4: Used games. So much of this is about trying to kill the second hand market in "creative" ways that hides it from the consumer.....the industry feels they're losing SO much money on second hand and all this and DLC etc tied to digital DRM is a sneaky way of making you pay the publisher for the used game if significant content needs to be re-bought to move the cart/disc between accounts. It's a sneakier way of doing what XBox 1 was originally going to do with a $30 fee to play a used game to re-activate the license. We ended up with that very program on all consoles anyway when publishers figured out they could ram it through with consumers as "DLC" and "unlocks" Megaman is worthless without that code, so it won't be appealing used....and THAT is the real goal.

I think all of this is correct, with the addition of a number 5, which would be that it is a way of gradually forcing downloaded games to be the only way to get games. By screwing over collectors by requiring downloads to use the game, there is no reason to buy physical games anymore.

Agriculture

NEStalgia

@Agriculture I agree with your addendum...I think back at in the release thread for one of the 2K games I may have even said something on the same lines.

For now it's still better than digital, usually. Not for Bayonetta or, Resident Evil with a download code, but for Doom, L.A. Noire, etc, physical still allows you to transfer the license between accounts (i.e. used games, loaning the game etc at will... If it's a patch physical still enables license transferring though not collecting. If it's a DL code it's just a digital game sold in a plastic box.

NEStalgia

Knuckles-Fajita

Many PS4 games are bigger than a Blu-Ray can hold and in cases like L.A. Noire, 2K just put a minimal amount on a disc and had you download the rest.

This isn't a Switch problem anymore. It's an industry problem.

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subpopz

If they really wanted people to embrace digital and get rid of "second hand" resales, backward compatibility would be a bigger thing. Though I know some people here have a problem with Steam, I fully embraced digital because my library is always there. I can get a whole new PC and my library and saves are available and playable. Backward compatibility is a different beast on consoles, but still.
Then on the other side, they would lose out on reselling games on the next platform......so they want the best of both worlds. They don't want us to resell, but they want to resell to us.
Digital as a whole isn't inherently bad, but the system they're pushing toward isn't good.

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Hikingguy

Just so my position is clear, I am a hardcore proponent of physical games.
The primary reason I want a physical game is if my device breaks years down the line, I can get a new device and put in my old games and play them. I can play my NES games on any NES that is in the same region. Any Gensis game, any SNES, any Atari and on and on, if I put a game in a working console, it will work. But what I just described no longer possible. This scenario already no longer exists, even if you own the physical cartridge.
For example, take any game that has gotten any major update after the original release, for example lets say RiME. Now lets say in the future my grandchildren wants to play my cartridge on a Switch he bought from a flea market because grandpa just gave him a bunch of really old games. They pop the game in and try to play it. They get the day one mess with no, legal, way to get the update. Now lets say that very same person also gets a copy of Contra for the NES and he puts that in a NES, he can play that game in full.
I my opinion, as of maybe the Wii U, and especially the Switch, the reason to own a physical game is over. Now they just need to bring the price of digital games way, way down since the old model is finished and the publishers no longer need to account for the cost of the physical game.
It is sad to say, but there is no longer an advantage to own the game physically over digitally for future proofing yourself against loss and time.
Updates are a blessing and a curse.

Hikingguy

Agriculture

Hikingguy wrote:

Just so my position is clear, I am a hardcore proponent of physical games.
The primary reason I want a physical game is if my device breaks years down the line, I can get a new device and put in my old games and play them. I can play my NES games on any NES that is in the same region. Any Gensis game, any SNES, any Atari and on and on, if I put a game in a working console, it will work. But what I just described no longer possible. This scenario already no longer exists, even if you own the physical cartridge.
For example, take any game that has gotten any major update after the original release, for example lets say RiME. Now lets say in the future my grandchildren wants to play my cartridge on a Switch he bought from a flea market because grandpa just gave him a bunch of really old games. They pop the game in and try to play it. They get the day one mess with no, legal, way to get the update. Now lets say that very same person also gets a copy of Contra for the NES and he puts that in a NES, he can play that game in full.
I my opinion, as of maybe the Wii U, and especially the Switch, the reason to own a physical game is over. Now they just need to bring the price of digital games way, way down since the old model is finished and the publishers no longer need to account for the cost of the physical game.
It is sad to say, but there is no longer an advantage to own the game physically over digitally for future proofing yourself against loss and time.
Updates are a blessing and a curse.

I think it's deliberate. Sure, games are more complex these days, but the division is far too big to be coincidental. On the PS2 all games were released in working order because it didn't have a harddrive, so it was a must. On the PS3 you had a harddrive and the industry started to release some games unfinished on disc. On the PS4, nearly all games are released unfinished.

Agriculture

Grumblevolcano

@Hikingguy There are still advantages with physical on Switch, mostly surrounding technology not having progressed enough in the mobile space. Like microSD card technology has only reached 512GB for maximum memory size as of this month (400GB was before that), that's really small compared with the memory you can use on other consoles via external hard drives. Also internet speeds are a significant issue that would need to be resolved before physical goes away.

Edited on by Grumblevolcano

Grumblevolcano

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Agriculture

Grumblevolcano wrote:

Also internet speeds are a significant issue that would need to be resolved before physical goes away.

Internet speeds are only a problem in third world countries and in the areas of the united states where there is only one broadband provider.

Agriculture

subpopz

@Hikingguy I'm not tech-knowledgeable, but with a Switch cart or other media that is not optical, would it not be possible for them to apply patches to the game cart itself (provided the cart was shipped with empty space to accommodate patches)? For simplicity sake, let's assume bigger carts with empty space have dropped in price making that a non-issue. On technical level, is this a feasible thing to do?

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jeffyg3

Sad truth of it all is that I’m not buying the Megaman Collection on the Switch because of how utterly ridiculous what Capcom did with it. That is more like a slap in the face for the fans.

jeffyg3

Delibheel

@subpopz it's possible that these cartridges are designed to be read-only.

Yeah I don’t know either.

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Knuckles-Fajita

@subpopz Read-write cards are more expensive.

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Agriculture

Meowpheel wrote:

@subpopz it's possible that these cartridges are designed to be read-only.

They are, Mask ROM to be specifically. When the chip is made, they mask of certain areas of the chip, which becomes the data. So Switch game cards are physical media in every sense of the word (the data is physically printed on the card).

Agriculture

Hikingguy

@Grumblevolcano But if Internet speeds are an issue, then all these updates that are becoming more and necessary are still a problem for those same people.
Anyway, availability and speed of the Internet does not change my initial argument. If the trend continues, people like me who have always bought physical copies will not own a complete copy of the game. And it seems to be only get worse.
I really wish I was wrong, but unless there is a major shift, even owning the physical copy will not be much better than not owning it at all.

Hikingguy

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