@Ralizah Even if the character has wider appeal due to the nature of her sexualization (which she absolutely has, in my opinion), that doesn't mean one can't be critical of the way she being sexualized in the first place. The games can still portrait he characterization without the more questionable camera angles that only exist for titillation, for example.
@MarcelRguez Given the exhibitionistic nature of the character, the camera zooming in for butt or leg shots makes perfect sense. The portrayal of the character feeds into and expands the characterization. Notice how often she seems to be actively posing for a camera shot?
A person can be uncomfortable with that all they like, and it's absolutely meant to be titillating, but that doesn't make it sexist or exploitative.
....Do we seriously have to talk about this crap?...It's a video game of a woman beating up massive monsters with her own fists...Who cares if she's naked all the time and only having her own hair covering her up.
My Monster Hunter Rise Gameplay
https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLzirEG5duST1bEJi0-9kUORu5SRfvuTLr
Discord server: https://discord.gg/fGUnxcK
Keep it PG-13-ish.
I tried Bayonetta 1 on PS3 and didn't like it at all. I heard it was a bad quality port, so that could be the reason. One of my all time favorite games is Devil May Cry, so I hope this game will be great.
@Ralizah That would make sense if Bayonetta was posing for the camera every single time, but she isn't. The whole transformation sequence of Bayo 2 is a very obvious example of that. She's not 'in' the joke all of the time, otherwise it wouldn't be much of an issue.
That last sentence is extremely weird too. If most women (if not people in general) find how a female character is portrayed off-putting and exploitative, then that portrayal is sexist. On reverse, just because some people don't have an issue with it doesn't mean it isn't sexist.
@Joeynator3000 It's fine if you don't care, but at least try to understand what's being talked about here.
So, no, there's nothing sexist about Bayonetta's portrayal in this game, even if her attractiveness and brazen sexuality makes people like you feel uncomfortable.
10/10 projecting. Regardless of your revolutionary argument of 'So you can't handle how naked the men making Bayonetta made her be!?' I'm more concerned for how her portrayal and others like it detaches how men and women see women from the actual, realistic way you should treat other human beings. And please no one give me one of those "I'm a woman and I don't have a problem with it" responses. I mean women at large so, while your opinion is as valid as everyone else's, an individual cannot speak for the whole, etc, etc you get the point.
And @NEStalgia, while it's true that the body idealism of games is, to some extent, applied to both sexes, that doesn't make it okay in either case. I've railed against space marines and Blizzard's ridiculous gendering of its characters at times, but the thing is He-Man's crotch is not crafted to be stared at. Most playable characters in games tends toward power fantasy, but disproportionately women also are created to embody a male (and I guess other interested sexualities) sex fantasy.
But specifically about Bayonetta, I don't think anyone turns off their TV after Bayonetta calls a demon out of a summoning circle in her crotch. People who play games happily gorge on demons and violence for their own sake, myself included. I don't see how that's a turn off for anyone already invested in the space.
I think this could do with being restated. The Japanese collector's edition for the games we're both talking about right now is, in real life, called the "Non-Stop Climax Edition." Who's climax do we think that is, exactly?
Like I was saying before, in an ideal world there is nothing problematic about female sexuality. However, you have to take into account the terms of the time. The game industry is disproportionately male, female characters are rare, and the sexuality or simply prettiness of those characters is not so much a choice as it is a dogma. You can find Twitter accounts dedicated to lampooning the way in which male writers writer female characters like erotica, with little detail or attention paid to their character or inner workings. I mean, there is literally another Platinum/Clover game where the companion character is constantly sneaking into a woman's dress and it's played off as a joke. And many other cases like that.
And just because I get the feeling it could do with saying, you can enjoy a thing and admit it has moral faults at the same time. How else could anyone watch most anime? It doesn't have to be one or the other 'I like this so it is ABSOLUTELY NOT problematic in any way' — what I was making fun of in the first place.
I've railed against space marines and Blizzard's ridiculous gendering of its characters at times, but the thing is He-Man's crotch is not crafted to be stared at.
And expanding on this idea a bit: on the rare occasion we do get Actually Sexualized Male Characters, their sexualization isn't nearly as exclusionary for the male audience when compared to the opposite scenario. For all the questionable stuff it does with its female characters, the Metal Gear series is a shining example of this as far as male characters are concerned.
tl;dr: sexualization is like telling a joke: it's always great when we're all in on it and you're not making one at the expense of someone else.
And just because I get the feeling it could do with saying, you can enjoy a thing and admit it has moral faults at the same time. How else could anyone watch most anime? It doesn't have to be one or the other 'I like this so it is ABSOLUTELY NOT problematic in any way' — what I was making fun of in the first place.
Also a hundred times this. Bayonetta is one of my favorite series, ever since I bought the 360 version of the game for ten bucks. Got the special edition of 2 on Wii U and I'm planning to do the same with the Switch double-pack. I wouldn't be dwelling into these topics if I didn't give a crap about the series.
@NEStalgia Yeah, I'm not a big fan of the DOA type of games, or the bikini armor in a lot of RPGs, I fail to see how it's even remotely attractive, and I assume that's often the biggest motive behind these tropes. But Bayonetta is certainly different. It's so over the top, it's almost a parody, in a good way. And not even in an attractive way I think. And she's certainly a strong character. Sometimes it feels like I'm out of the loop with this kind of stuff, I expected people to like the Wonder Woman film this year, but instead they complained about her armpits! You can't please everyone I guess.
That being said, I need to finish Bayonetta 2 sooner than later, but my Wii U is still boxed and stored somewhere, I haven't seen it since I moved house earlier this year. I expect this to be a 2019 title, so no hurry!
@Haru17 Well, you know, on that note, Bayonetta was actually designed by a woman, so talking about how she is the way MEN made her is a bit disingenuous, but I think your post has made it clear you're not actually interested in the feelings or opinions of women on this matter at all.
The creators of these games have no moral obligation to make her portrayal realistic so as not to confuse the poor saps who can't help comparing real women with her or other characters like her. In fact, that would pretty much neuter her characterization, which is intended to be larger than life and flamboyant. Moreover, your wider concerns about the effects of media consumption on human behavior and perception have nothing to do with whether Bayonetta's portrayal is sexist or not.
@MarcelRguez I'm not saying there aren't legitimately sexist portrayals of women in media, but you being put off by Bayonetta's open sexuality says more about your prudishness than anything about the game. There is absolutely nothing inherently sexist about sexual portrayals of women in media, even ones meant to provoke titillation. As I said earlier, sexy and sexist are two entirely different things.
And Bayonetta is "in on the joke" frequently throughout the games. Does she literally need to break the fourth wall with the in-game camera every single time for this to become apparent? The in-game camera is a part of her character. She's certainly not being victimized by it like in a Senran Kagura game or something.
@Octane I'm generally not a fan of DC comics-based movies or the actors chosen to portray the iconic characters featured in them, but Gal Godot was perfectly cast as Wonder Woman. She exudes kindness, grace, strength, and inner fortitude almost equally, which makes her seem like she's really channeling the character.
But Bayonetta is certainly different. It's so over the top, it's almost a parody, in a good way. And not even in an attractive way I think.
About this and since it's similar to what @NEStalgia mentioned some posts ago: I want to point out that this has very little to do with subverting any tropes related to the portrayal of female characters and a whole lot to do with Kamiya's particular kind of horny.
@OdnetninAges Jesus, is the 3DS version of that game fugly.
@Ralizah Bayonetta was designed by a woman, but she didn't create the character out of thin air. Kamiya might as well have drawn her himself. Not to mention, women can be alienated and can adopt the male gaze just as well as your average dude.
Bayonetta was designed by a woman, but she didn't create the character out of thin air. Kamiya might as well have drawn her himself. Not to mention, women can be alienated and can adopt the male gaze just as well as your average dude.
Good to know that the creative contributions of Kamiya's wife don't matter because her internalized misogyny makes her a mere extension of her husband.
Maybe we should just change Bayonetta into a guy and call it a day, that would solve all the problems it seems!
@Ralizah I haven't watched Wonder Woman yet, but I'm a big fan of Nolan's Batman trilogy, and Watchmen. I know, completely different directors, but I tend to prefer DC over Marvel. I shall give it a watch whenever it comes to Netflix!
By the way, to everyone, I'm fine with this discussion, but just a friendly reminder to keep it civil! I hope that goes without saying.
@Ralizah@MarcelRguez Her name is Mari Shimazaki. She's also done design work for Soul Calibur, Okami, and Fire Emblem Fates. Here's a post of her discussing how and why she designed Bayonetta the way she did, what parts were her idea and insistence, and what came as suggestions from outside sources.
I'm ducking back out of this mess, just wanted someone to at least state her name if people are going to try and trample on her, plus it's a fascinating read.
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