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Topic: Lack of Switch VC Info - Update: No VC at launch

Posts 21 to 40 of 84

Sisilly_G

I suspect that one of the reasons why Nintendo is keeping hush hush about VC is due to the fact that they still want their current userbase to continue purchasing VC titles on 3DS/Wii U. We'll most likely find out more come the weekly download update the Monday following the next.

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HefHughner

I'm pretty sure now there will be no Virtual Console.

  • The joy cons have no D-Pad. That means in tablet mode one would have to play 2D-platformers with the stick or carry the pro controller around.... No analogue-triggers also means all the Game Cube rumors are a steaming pile of BS...
  • Radio silence: If they had good news (there will be a VC/you don't need to repurchase) Nintendo would have used this good news in last month to keep the launch excitement up. They know what they are going to tell people will be very disappointing, thats why they avoid this topic.
  • The free NES and SNES game you can play for one month if you subscribe to the online service is called the free NES and SNES game. Not the the free Virtual Console game. Nintendo confirmed these will be special editions with added online functionality, so its probably a separate category of remakes like the short lived 3D Classic line, which - if successful - would make many VC games obsolete.
  • The NES classic mini was the the third best selling console in January. These things basically are HDMI-sticks with a custom OS, an emulator and some roms they sell for 60 Dollars. I don't know the profit margin, but I'm sure it's insanely high, so it's very likely Nintendo is ditching VC on it's "real" consoles in favor of selling us these retro hdmi-devices/rom collections once or twice per year.

HefHughner

Falkor

HefHughner wrote:

I'm pretty sure now there will be no Virtual Console.

The fact that Nintendo is offering a free retro game each month to their online subscribers suggests otherwise.

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BigBadJohn

Im personally not bothered about VC however I do know others are so please don't jump down my neck over this. I'm not a retro gamer and their are countless other ways of playing these games. The dedicated Mini NES was / is a big seller for Nintendo and maybe that is the best way to play them. The potential money spinner of a mini snes, mini n64 and mini GC could be an extra revenue stream for Nintendo. I don't mind HD remasters or new functionality being added but I've played the classics to death. I want Nintendo to concentrate on new games.

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Octane

@Mellor2000 $60 for 30 games + hardware or $5 per VC game. Sure, the former was a success, as far as the stock was available, but they're not giving up VC when they know there are people willing to pay $5 for old NES games, or $8 for SNES.

Octane

OorWullie

I really don't think Nintendo consider the Mini NES and any future mini consoles to be a subsitute for VC.As Octane points out,there's too much money to be made selling the same games again individually. You just need to look at the E-shop charts,it's dominated by VC titles,Mario especially.But also,Reggie said last month

“When we looked at that proposition what we believed was the adults, 30-40 years old, who grew up playing NES as a kid, 10 years old or so but had stepped away from the gaming category–that was going to be the buyer.”

So by the sounds of it,they (naively) didn't expect the audience for the Mini NES to be the dedicated Nintendo fans that buy nearly everything they put out.

VC is coming for sure and they've clearly got plans for it.All will be revealed soon,I'm sure of it.

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Don

HefHughner wrote:

I'm pretty sure now there will be no Virtual Console.

  • The joy cons have no D-Pad. That means in tablet mode one would have to play 2D-platformers with the stick or carry the pro controller around.... No analogue-triggers also means all the Game Cube rumors are a steaming pile of BS...
  • Radio silence: If they had good news (there will be a VC/you don't need to repurchase) Nintendo would have used this good news in last month to keep the launch excitement up. They know what they are going to tell people will be very disappointing, thats why they avoid this topic.
  • The free NES and SNES game you can play for one month if you subscribe to the online service is called the free NES and SNES game. Not the the free Virtual Console game. Nintendo confirmed these will be special editions with added online functionality, so its probably a separate category of remakes like the short lived 3D Classic line, which - if successful - would make many VC games obsolete.
  • The NES classic mini was the the third best selling console in January. These things basically are HDMI-sticks with a custom OS, an emulator and some roms they sell for 60 Dollars. I don't know the profit margin, but I'm sure it's insanely high, so it's very likely Nintendo is ditching VC on it's "real" consoles in favor of selling us these retro hdmi-devices/rom collections once or twice per year.

I really hope that will not be the case. I transferred all Wii VC downloads to Wii U so if anything happens to the Wii U I will be losing pretty much all my VC games except the ones on my 3DS.

Don

Grumblevolcano

I think VC will happen but it may not start until the fall when paid online becomes a thing which would give those 3rd parties who made games in the launch window a chance of selling enough copies to support the Switch more.

Grumblevolcano

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erv

To be honest I just entered this thread to tell people that if there's one thing that I really don't care about it's virtual console.

Now all of you should not care about it .

In all seriousness, I've never approached the virtual console as something worthwhile. I've always wanted that stuff to remain on the past, and the energy focused on the future.

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HefHughner

@Don So do I, believe me. Spent hundreds of Euros on VC games including rebuying them at the transfer-discount from Wii to WiiU.

I expected them to offer at least some information in the weeks following the big January presentation, but now it is two weeks before launch and Nintendo seems to deliberately avoid this topic. When you consider the arguments I made in my post, I fear they do this because they literally have nothing to announce.

I really do hope I am wrong.

HefHughner

TheZeldanator

Although VC hasn't been talked about as a whole, they did mention the fact that they can track VC purchases through your Nintendo Network ID, so I really hope they don't expect us to re-pay for the right to play what you already purchased from Wii U on Switch, even the fact that we had to pay a reduce price to play Wii U VC games we had purchased on Wii was a huge turnoff for me.

TheZeldanator

Nin10dad

I think, inevitably, we will have to pay for them again. I can see Nintendo implementing features that they will say 'justifies' the re purchase price. For example; the online modes in the monthly subscription games and whatever else they think of!
@TheZeldanator

Edited on by Nin10dad

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skywake

HefHughner wrote:

The NES classic mini was the the third best selling console in January. These things basically are HDMI-sticks with a custom OS, an emulator and some roms they sell for 60 Dollars. I don't know the profit margin, but I'm sure it's insanely high, so it's very likely Nintendo is ditching VC on it's "real" consoles in favor of selling us these retro hdmi-devices/rom collections once or twice per year.

The profit margin for the VC is far greater than the NES Classic Mini. With the VC they're charging $5US on their own store for an entirely digital product which you download. The NES Classic Mini is 30 games for $60US ($2US each) sold at stores with retailer margin that they don't collect, as a physical piece of hardware with a controller that costs money to produce. It's not rocket science.

If anything the fact that the NES Classic Mini is a thing should confirm that the VC isn't dead. There was enough of a demand for it that Nintendo are not going to pull the pin. And lets not ignore the fact that on both the 3DS and Wii U eShops VC titles were frequently in the top sellers lists. There is demand and the margin is stupidly high, why wouldn't they do it? If they're playing with the idea of how expensive VC games are and how they're packaged maybe we will get something better than what we're used to.

HefHughner wrote:

The joy cons have no D-Pad. That means in tablet mode one would have to play 2D-platformers with the stick or carry the pro controller around.... No analogue-triggers also means all the Game Cube rumors are a steaming pile of BS...

And? GC aside, those games are still playable even if the controller isn't optimal. They also have controller options that will resolve those issues. The Joycon are detachable if you hadn't noticed. And in any case compare it to the Wii which was the one console which pushed VC the hardest. Out of the box you couldn't play SNES or N64 games. So I'm not sure what your point is TBH....

Edited on by skywake

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Emperor-Palpsy

HefHughner wrote:

I'm pretty sure now there will be no Virtual Console.

  • The joy cons have no D-Pad. That means in tablet mode one would have to play 2D-platformers with the stick or carry the pro controller around.... No analogue-triggers also means all the Game Cube rumors are a steaming pile of BS...

A D-Pad is just four inputs under one mould. Doesn't make a difference whether it's that or four separate buttons - the controls are the same. Also, the beauty of the Joy-Con system is that Nintendo could easily make a GameCube set, charge whatever they liked, and people will purchase it just to play their favourite titles again.

HefHughner wrote:

  • Radio silence: If they had good news (there will be a VC/you don't need to repurchase) Nintendo would have used this good news in last month to keep the launch excitement up. They know what they are going to tell people will be very disappointing, thats why they avoid this topic.

Actually, Reggie has also addressed this in-part. In an interview with Jared, he stated that all previous purchases - including Virtual Console - are now tied to your N-ID account, and that Nintendo would announce news on this situation in the future.

HefHughner wrote:

  • The free NES and SNES game you can play for one month if you subscribe to the online service is called the free NES and SNES game. Not the the free Virtual Console game. Nintendo confirmed these will be special editions with added online functionality, so its probably a separate category of remakes like the short lived 3D Classic line, which - if successful - would make many VC games obsolete.

...because they haven't announced Virtual Console for Switch yet. For all we know, it could be re-branded or there will be another type of service to replace it.

HefHughner wrote:

  • The NES classic mini was the the third best selling console in January. These things basically are HDMI-sticks with a custom OS, an emulator and some roms they sell for 60 Dollars. I don't know the profit margin, but I'm sure it's insanely high, so it's very likely Nintendo is ditching VC on it's "real" consoles in favor of selling us these retro hdmi-devices/rom collections once or twice per year.

The audience that purchases a NES Classic Mini doesn't automatically correlate with Switch owners. A lot of people who purchased the NES C.M. will have been nostalgic adults, or those buying a gift for someone else. Also, the fact that Nintendo tasked 'NERD' to create these new emulations suggests that it is on-going project, and wouldn't be limited to a product made in limited quantities.

Edited on by Emperor-Palpsy

cackle

HefHughner

@skywake

Nes classic mini: It all comes down to what the average customer spends. Those of us hardcore Nintendo fans who don't own the original consoles (or are too lazy get them from basement) spend a lot of money on that service, but I doubt the average Wii or Wii U owner is spending hundreds of Dollars or Euros. If the profit margin of these hdmi devices is higher than what the average customer spends on VC games (and I think it is, though it's, I have to admit, a guess), it would be smarter for Nintendo to go for the hdmi device strategy. I say strategy, because I think we will see a whole line of these things, SNES mini, N64 mini. AFAIK VC sales were already in decline on Wii and the small install base of the Wii U did not help either.

But I agree Nintendo could interpret the high interest in the NES mini as interest in VC as well. I hope they will.

Joy-cons: Thats is a very good argument. I forgot about not being able to play Mario 64 without the Wii classic or the Game Cube controller when i bought my Wii, but i still think this situation is different. The Wii was all about the peripherals and the Switch is all about the possibility to have a complete console experience outside of the living room. The most important lesson Nintendo learned from not selling enough Wii Us is to have a very clear message: The Switch is portable. Everything you do can with system can be done while you wait for the bus. That’s why I think it would be against Nintendos sales strategy to tell people: You can sort of play classic games in handheld mode, but you should carry that Pro Controller with you if really want to do it using handheld mode.

@Emperor-Palpsy

D-Pad: Yes and no. No: In every single preview I read it is mentioned the four separate buttons feel nothing like a D-Pad. Wasn’t it even forbidden to try Street Fighter 2 with the Joy-Con? I think I remember everyone had to use the Pro Controller? Yes: I totally agree Nintendo will inevitably release special Joy-Cons with a classic button layout, especially if and when the announced classic games sell well. I would buy those.

Radio silence/Rebranding VC: I agree. Avoiding the VC name because they want to use a different name for a similar service would be a good reason why they constantly avoid this topic. Fingers crossed, but I am still pessimistic and think VC doesn’t fit in the marketing strategy and is - if not completely cancelled – not part of the year one strategy.

Nes mini: Reggie said he was surprised how many customers who already own some or all NES-mini-games on VC purchased the Nes mini anyway. So in Nintendos perspective that means the ideal future would be the majority of people buy VC games on Switch and 3DS to play them on the go, and the hdmi device(s) as well. I don’t think that’s going to happen. They will look at what gets them the most profit from the average customer. If the average customer spends only 15 Dollars or Euro on VC games, but the profit margin from selling them a 60 Dollar device is above 15 Dollars. They will go for the hdmi-strategy.

I have to admit we don’t have enough informations to determine what is more profitable for Nintendo. How much are VC sales declining? How much license fees has Nintendo to pay for games like Ninja Gaiden on NES mini?

HefHughner

skywake

@HefHughner
I don't think you understand what profit margin means. The gap between the VC and NES Mini models are so vast that there's no question the VC model has a significantly higher profit margin. Digital is inherently a cheaper method of distribution and the price their charging per-game is far higher on the eShop.

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HefHughner

@skywake No need to attack me. I was just having a rational discussion. I am aware what profit margin means, thanks. What i mean is the profit margin of VC games doesn't matter that much. If the average person spends 15 Dollars on VC games and the profit margin of a Nes mini is 17 Dollars, it doesn't matter if the 15 VC--Dollars are pure profit (they are not btw. because server infrastructure, licensing fees and manpower to coordinate releases etc). If you just compare profit margins, sure, nothing can compete with an old game you distribute digitally on your own network, especially not a electronic retail product that has to be assembled and sold in stores.

But... when you sell product A 100.000 times and have a profit margin of 100%, you would still make less money than with product B you sell 1.000.000 times at profit margin of 80%. Thats what i mean. We don't know the numbers, but I think it's plausible to to think Nintendo would go for the hdmi-device strategy if the profit margin of these things is higher than what the average person spends for VC game, because it wouldn't matter if they can get 100%profit out of 15 or 30 or whatever Dollars if what the profit they make with each Nes mini unit is higher.

HefHughner

skywake

@HefHughner
I wasn't attacking you, I was just saying I don't think you understand what profit margin means. Because you said that the profit margin on the NES Mini would be higher than the VC. Now you're saying the opposite to save face because I corrected you. I don't intend to humiliate you here, I'm just trying to get the facts straight.

Anyways, if we're going to talk margins then lets be a bit more realistic with the numbers here. I think you're being very optimistic when you say that per-game the NES Classic Mini makes about 80% of the money that the VC does. That's complete BS to be frank. So let me run some of my own estimates here using Australian prices because I understand those better.

NES Classic Mini: $100AU RRP after tax
Taxes: ~$10AU -> $90AU left
Retail margin: ~$10AU -> $80AU left
Hardware: ~$30AU -> $50AU left
30x Games: $50AU/30 -> $1.70AU/game

Compare that to the VC:
NES game on the VC -> $6.50AU after tax
taxes -> $5.90AU

That's an approximation of the difference in profit margin. Yes, there are licencing fees and server costs for the VC. At the same time there are licencing fees and distribution costs for the hardware option. There are R&D costs for one, there are more R&D costs for the other. So I think it's fair to say that I'm being fair here, if anything I'm underestimating the overhead for the physical model here.

So what does this mean for equivalent overall profits? Well lets assume that over the lifetime of the console the Switch sells 40mill units. A low estimate probably. Lets also say that on average one NES VC game is sold per Switch. Say for every 10 people who don't buy any there's one guy that buys 10. I'm probably seriously under-estimating on that point. If that was the case then they're making:

40mill x $5.90 -> $236mill AUD

How many NES Classics would they have to sell to get to that number?

$236mill / $1.70 -> 139mill
139mill/30 -> 4.6mill

Are there 4.6mill people who want an NES Classic Mini? I'm not sure, probably not. More importantly, does the NES Classic Mini existing mean people have zero interest in VC releases now? Definitely not. I don't think those markets overlap that much and where they do overlap I don't think that person is going to not buy games on the VC just because they have an NES Classic Mini.

Frankly I don't think you have much of an argument here. Why would Nintendo give up on one line of revenue just because they've opened up a second option which is significantly less profitable?

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"Don't stir the pot" is a nice way of saying "they're too dumb to reason with"

HefHughner

@skywake That 80% was part of my example. Thats why I used product A and B. You know that and only use it to put someone done who has different opinion.

Maybe I was unclear in my earlier post. All I said was:

  • the NES mini profit margin is high (I think we can all agree on this)

And I was more precise saying:

  • its not about the profit margin of a VC game vs Nes mini game. In the end it matters what the average person spends on VC games vs. the profit margin of Nes mini.

I already agreed with you when you said the most ideal solution for Nintendo would be customers buying VC games as well as hdmi devices and I still hope thats going to happen.

Btw: Nintendo already sold 1.5 million units despite the device being constantly sold out everywhere. Imagine it would have been widely available at christmas and sales would probably be between 2 and 3 million right now (not a half year after launch). If they would chose to completely go the hdmi-device route when it comes to selling retro games, its fair to expect a SNES and maybe even a N64 mini. Imagine one collection per year (different editions with different games) and you could even sell new Nes minis to those who already own one. What i mean is: My argument is no limited to the NES mini released in November, I talk about this as the strategy including more consoles than NES (including more editions of the NES mini).

HefHughner

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