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Topic: Am I the only one who's really missin' 1:1 swordplay in Breath of the Wild?

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Turbo857

@Monkey_Balls

Very good points and thanks for elaborating further on your previous statement. Personally, I'd prefer motion controls for sword strikes over the right analog alternative when given the choice as well. But I think that choice would be needed to avoid turning off Zelda fans that are just not interested in motion controlled sword combat. Also, I think the right analog alternative would be useful for playing the Switch in handheld mode if Nintendo ever brings back 1:1 motion controls.

"With Breath, the combat is fast and fluid: you can paraglide in, fire some arrows, throw some bombs, perform a flurry rush or two, Revali's Gale out, land on your horse and be gone. With SS's mechanics you'd either have all those Bokoblins and Lizalfos running over then lining up, waiting to play the motion-control dance, or they wouldn't move from their spots, waiting for Link to face them. Either way could be a chore and slow the combat considerably. The intensity and (more importantly) freedom could be lost."

Possibly, but if I were Nintendo implementing motion controlled combat into a sequel with an open world design, I would make enemies that appeared in packs be a bit less "demanding" when it came to defense. But even still, in SS Bokoblins could be dispatched pretty quickly so even if a few of them came you at once, a spin attack would send'em flying or if there are that many, another approach can be used to take'em out entirely (bombs, fire arrows etc.). Just because they happen to play a little defense when armed with a one-handed weapon shouldn't effect the core game-play that drastically. More defensive enemies could probably be used for dungeon bosses, over-world mini bosses and enemies in shrines.

Ya gotta keep in mind also: SS's combat wasn't just limited to wait-for-an-opening and then attack strategies. I usually just attacked immediately to create openings after an enemy blocked instead of just waiting for one. Furthermore, not every single enemy required a "dance". You had enemies like Keese and Chuchus which didn't require specific directional strikes in order to dispatch. So I'd imagine an open-world built for exploration would mostly be littered with enemies that weren't too demanding at first but incrementally increase their difficulty as playtime increases (just like it does with a game based on button mashing).

"Talking of button-mashing... thinking about it, BotW's combat system isn't much different to previous Zelda games. The flurry rush pretty much replaces the rolling-dodge, and Z/L-targeting is still there. It's a tried and tested system which works, and when combined with the Runes (Stasis, Magnesis, etc) is diverse enough to not be too shallow or lacking. Sure, on occasion I feel like I'm button-mashing but maybe that's my own fault when the game offers up so many other ways to defeat an enemy?"

Truth be told: I don't have an issue with button mashing per se. I tend to love Omega Force styled beat'em ups when they use another company's IP. And I agree, Breath of the Wild is my favorite in the series thus far and it does indeed offer a variety of combat options outside of hand to hand combat. However, its hand-to-hand combat while serviceable.... is very basic. It's familiar compared to past 3D Zeldas, it does work, but it's basic especially when compared to its predecessor SS.

"I guess if we had 1:1 sword controls combined with BotW's fluidity (rather than SS's 1v1 dances), that could possibly work; it could provide a new level of strategy and be quite fun. Maybe for the next Zelda game though... Something more compact - a middle ground between SS and BotW. But SS's slower, strategic combat system in BotW's world? I think I would find that a chore after a while; there are too many enemies and the map is too large for a complex combat system."

This is where we disagree a bit. I wouldn't say there are too many enemies in Breath of the Wild. The world is massive and enemies populate the world but they are thoughtfully spread out. I could ride a horse and enjoy the landscape with not too much happening at times. Othertimes I'm climbing mountains, get to the top and maybe one enemy will pop out of the shadows.

And even when you are facing more than one enemy, you can only focus on one enemy at a time with Z targeting anyways. So, regardless of the random instances where groups of enemies inhabit an area or outpost, one on one fighting focus is still the priority for hand to hand combat. I also didn't find SS combat that slow. Yeah, it sometimes requires a bit more of a methodical approach, but after getting used to fighting an enemy type, you learn to dispatch them quicker so... I don't think a more compact world than Botw is essential. It all comes down to how the devz approach the AI and tweak the difficulty curve within the new physics engine. And from my perspective it doesn't look like an impossible task. But for a sequel definitely.

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NEStalgia

@Turbo857 But that is the issue. If it's real 1:1 the motion is simply inappropriate for a sword. A short sword like the Master Sword should be 8-12lbs. Our little joycon/wiimote flicks are much too fast in contrast to that. SS wasn't really 1:1, any waver in the linearity of your strike was not replicated in the game. It simply used the direction of your swing and its rate of velocity to apply an 8 way directional input and one of a few intensity modifiers. 1:1 could have you draw precise shapes with the tip of the sword in any direction. There was an old PC game, I forget the name, that used a mouse for actual 1:1 sword input. The result was as bad as you could guess, but the idea has been tried before.

But that's the thing, the "real sword movement" in SS was just an illusion. You were just using swings to replicate one of eight button/stick presses, and as the battles were scripted, you simply had to input the right direction at the right time like a QTE. You activated it with a swing rather than a press, but you were really just giving a digital input either way. A REAL 1:1 sword fight game WOULD require you to stand because you would need to fully move the sword/controller in the total arc of the swing. IF Link is swinging from an angle behind his back with a forward horizontal slash that arcs upward at the shoulder, you'd have to make that full swing precisely, which would involve twisting your torso and likely adjusting your footing to complete the swing. The game could be more specific or forgiving in physics as to whether losing velocity or wavering in steadiness would affect the glance of the blade on the opponent. That would be actual 1:1 sword play with motion controls.

SS was just tilt sensor directional input. Other than to "make it more fun" it didn't really add anything the stick doesn't do. Granted, Joycons have higher resolution sensors than the Wiimote+ did, so maybe something like that could be pulled off. It would be a cool spinoff game. But I don't think we'd want to be swinging and actually doing spin-slashes in front of our sofas for the entire length of BotW

And please, please, please do not ever mention the waggle controls in TP Wii. That was some of the worst game control mechanics I've ever experienced. SS fixed it. SS controls were good (but limited), but TP Wii Waggle was a giant travesty. It was the only Zelda game I never finished.....I stopped at the water temple, I couldn't take the controls any longer! I finally finished it on WiiU.

I didn't play SS standing (what I meant was if it really was true 1:1 you would have to play standing. SS wasn't 1:1) BUT it does have the problem that when you have intense action, some people, myself included tend to grip controllers harder and harder (the sound of stressing plastic is familiar to me ) With motion controls the motions start to become more exaggerated and more abrupt. It definitely gets fatiguing, and it's entirely involuntary.

FWIW I like SF:0. But it's a different kind of game, it's more of an arcade session kind of game than an epic marathon adventure. So the controls work well for it. And it doesn't involve as jarring a motion as sword swinging, the motion for the gyrocopter and all is a lot more natural.

Edited on by NEStalgia

NEStalgia

Turbo857

@NEStalgia

"SS was just tilt sensor directional input. Other than to "make it more fun" it didn't really add anything the stick doesn't do."

That's the point = make it more fun = provide more stimulating combat. Who cares if SS's combat is tilt sensor directional input and not true 1:1? If anything, your point further feeds my argument that the right analog can provide a serviceable alternative to gamers who'd be put off by motion controls if directional sword input was implemented in a Botw sequel. I don't care to get into a debate about true 1:1 swordplay, making a joy-con 8lbs or actually spinning to execute a spin attack (TP Wii and SS's spin attack inputs worked just fine). All that isn't relevant to maximizing "fun" just "realism" which isn't necessary.

"And please, please, please do not ever mention the waggle controls in TP Wii. That was some of the worst game control mechanics I've ever experienced. SS fixed it. SS controls were good (but limited), but TP Wii Waggle was a giant travesty. It was the only Zelda game I never finished.....I stopped at the water temple, I couldn't take the controls any longer! I finally finished it on WiiU."

Well personally, I enjoyed TP for the Wii... a lot (second favorite all-time Zelda). So much so that I "didn't" purchase the Wii U remaster. Yeah, the sword strikes weren't 1:1 but Link's sword strike animation was fast enough to sync with a waggle. Combined with shield bashing mapped to the nunchuck and IR reticule aiming for the bow = a more stimulating control alternative compared to past Zelda games at the time, imo. I only used TP Wii controls as an example of motion control implementation in a 40 hour plus game when earlier commenters pointed out that botw is just to open/big for motion controlled gameplay.

Considering that we're talking about the highest selling version of the top selling game in the franchise (to date), I'd have to assume your perspective on the Wii version of TP's controls places you in the minority. But I agree SS's improved upon these controls.

"BUT it does have the problem that when you have intense action, some people, myself included tend to grip controllers harder and harder (the sound of stressing plastic is familiar to me ) With motion controls the motions start to become more exaggerated and more abrupt. It definitely gets fatiguing, and it's entirely involuntary."

I disagree somewhat. From my experience using motion controls in Zelda games, once these controls are fully understood, there is no need for exaggerated movements causing fatigue. A flick of the wrist is all you need (besides crossing controllers for a SS spin attack). I blame fatigue on the fault of the player. Wii Punch-Out is a different story but even still, I only got fatigued when getting up from the canvas so... to each their own.

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NEStalgia

@Turbo857 Well the thread is about 1:1 sword play, so that's why I was talking about 1:1 sword play

I don't think many people actually liked the motion controls in TP Wii. You might be the first person I found that does! It's not an argument against motion controls, it's just that those motion controls were BAD. The OG Wiimote didn't have a gyro and was really unfit for the task until the M+ came out, and really poor quality motion controls were tacked onto a game not designed for it in order to utilize one of the new hardware's selling points. TP's sales on Wii were because the Wii was popular while the GCN was not, because the GCN version of the game was all but unavailable to anyone who didn't preorder, and the game was very well received in content, though critically the controls were always the exception to the otherwise high praise. Regardless of whether one likes motion controls or dislikes them, TP Wii is just a poor example of what they can, and should, be used for. SS is a fair example. But TP isn't going to do anyone favors for it's control scheme. It was motion for the sake of motion (and lack of other available inputs) rather than to make it more immersive as SS and Arms do.

Having tried Arms this weekend with and without the motion controls, I can add, different people have different coordination levels and will see different results from motion. I commented to Anti-Matter in the Arms thread I think I have the motor control skill of a child As soon as the action becomes intense, I find myself overcompensating rapidly in controls. It's an entirely involuntary response. Punches become sharp like I'm trying to shake something loose from my joycon, motions start running into each other, one arm moves when the other arm moves and turns become so exaggerated they become a block. Granted, for Arms (and SS) it's actually fun (for TP it's not), but I do think the fatigue and overal impression of motion controls comes down to if your instinct is to react to adrenaline versus not. And it's something beyond the individual's control, so it's kind of like if the 3D on 3DS causes instant nausea and migraines or if you can play 10 hours non stop with no problem. I can stare at a 3DS non-stop, all day long, with no problem, max 3D. Some people are doubled over in 40 seconds flat. Reacting to adrenaline and having sharp, concussive motion or not I think is a psycho-physiological reaction that will not be equal to all players which is probably why anything physical be it motion, VR, 3D, will be a polarizing element in gaming.

NEStalgia

Turbo857

@NEStalgia

"I don't think many people actually liked the motion controls in TP Wii. You might be the first person I found that does! It's not an argument against motion controls, it's just that those motion controls were BAD."

Saying TP Wii's motion controls were BAD, is subjective. I prefer to use less definitive terms when sharing opinions so I'd say "some" aspects of TP Wii's controls (sword swings) were "elementary/basic/inferior". Other elements of its motion controls like, shield bashing, IR aiming/item selection, and spin slash execution were fine imo. And I agree, SS and Arms present advanced immersive motion controls in comparison. There's no debate there.

"Reacting to adrenaline and having sharp, concussive motion or not I think is a psycho-physiological reaction that will not be equal to all players which is probably why anything physical be it motion, VR, 3D, will be a polarizing element in gaming."

Agreed. But regardless of whether it's polarizing or not should not mean developers shouldn't pursue developing games that make use of motion controls. For every person that hates motion controls or VR, there's a person out there that becomes acclimated to them and finds a superior enjoyment factor (like Mario Kart players who exclusively use motion steering). And it's my belief that these gamers should not be ignored (especially in instances where developers can provide an analog/button control based alternative).

Edited on by Turbo857

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NEStalgia

@Turbo857 Shield bash was fine, and IR aiming was fine (though I prefer the gyro aiming in SS since it's not based on absolute position) but it was indeed fine. I don't recall the spin slash gesture. But the problem with the implementation was two-fold. The simplicity lent itself to (frequently) interpereting inputs incorrectly, but moreover, the game was designed around, basically, button mashing for GCN, not around precise sword swings. So the sword swing motion had to be input like button mashing. So the activity you are performing through the majority of the game, non-stop, that would normally be as simple as pushing a button (the way it was designed to play), became a wrist-wearing continuous waggling. Not just fighting, but cutting grass, pots, etc. Objectively using the swing for the sword mechanic was simply bad controls, specifically because it was implemented in a shoe-horned fashion for a game not designed to control that way. It can be forgiven as it was a launch title for a new concept, and they learned from that presumably. But it certainly was bad. At least it was still better than Lair on PS3's SixAxis

Yeah, there's no reason not to create motion controls, but they do have to factor in that it's not for everyone. If they include standard controls for people who prefer them, that's fine. If the game's design depends on it so heavily that a button input just won't work, that's fine. But they do have to keep in mind that with any of these techs they're potentially limiting the game audience by as much has half (or less in the case of VR) of potential customers that are interested, or even able to use, the feature.

For a game like Zelda, it's easy for it to be choice. For a game like Arms it's an interesting one, as button controls likely produce more frame-accurate inputs and will be favored for competitive play, and yet mastry of motion may allow more nuianced curving of punches.

NEStalgia

LinksMightySword

Maybe I am just a simpleton , but I honestly can't find a thing about Breath of the Wild that is not damn near perfect . Over 80 hours invested , all divine beasts and 55 shrines and I am putting off the final battle so I can keep running around exploring and working the huge number of quests / shrines left.

Awesome awesome game . Only Switch game I currently have . Want to finish so i can dive into Disagea next !

Edited on by LinksMightySword

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Turbo857

@LinksMightySword

Lol, I'd just say you're a gamer and probably a Zelda fan. Breath of the Wild is awesome (hands down favorite in the series). I'm at 100 shrines and 3 Divine Beasts. I even said to myself my next game is going to be Disgea 5 after I finish this.

My comments are just aimed at improving the combat. It's not bad by any means but definitely an area that can be improved in a sequel, imo.

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LinksMightySword

@Turbo857
True that . I guess all the other improvements / aspects in BOTW made me question the combat mechanics less than in past games . I did enjoy the 1:1 from skyward sword and in a way am glad it stayed there as it was what made that game stand out .

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Turbo857

@NEStalgia

Objectively, when it comes to TP Wii's controls: We'll just have to agree to disagree. This feels like a similar debate I had with another gamer over Star Fox Zero's controls, where they said those were "bad" just because they didn't like them. For me, the waggle for sword strikes in TP were satisfying enough that I do not ever wish to play the game using button based sword strikes. I don't remember motion inputs being incorrectly registered during my time with the game. So, while I agree with some of your points and understand your opinion clearly, I don't believe the waggle for sword strikes were definitively "bad" controls (just inferior to SS's). I must've beat that game at least 5 times since it was released and I didn't find it the slightest bit tiring. You cut grass and pots in SS as well by moving a controller. Bad controls to me is when the controls prevent you from advancing in game. If that happened to you, okay but that never happened to me.

Your other comments about Zelda in general, ARMS, VR and motion controls.... I agree.

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Turbo857

@LinksMightySword

All Zelda games have their stand out contribution and 1:1 sword combat wasn't the only one for SS (first 3D Zelda to feature up-gradable shields/items, storage for inventory, sword blasts, vertical spin attack, etc.). But, I disagree somewhat. I think 1:1 was the pinnacle of Zelda combat which more than deserves to make a return in a sequel, especially since the Joy-con is the next evolution of the Wii Remote Plus + Nunchuck setup.

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LinksMightySword

@Turbo857

I certainly have not played around enough with the joycons in each hand to make an objective assessment, but they sure seem awful small to be an improvement over wii motion plus if only from a tangible size perspective . I hope to be wrong in that regard as I would love to see them as an actual improvement and also would love to see a number of games experiment with them that way.

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Turbo857

@LinksMightySword

Well, there's no debating the fact that they are in fact smaller but as someone that mostly plays Zelda with split joy-con they're certainly more comfortable.

But from a technical standpoint they're definitely an improvement over the ol Wii remote/nunchuck setup. There's no wired connection between the Joy-con pair and both controllers have the same motion detection tech built in (minus the IR camera missing from the left Joy-con). Nunchuck was always a step behind the Wii Remote Plus and no doubt that limited design for some games that took advantage of their combined control option.

ARMS as an example wouldn't be playable with a simple Nunchuk/Wii motion plus option.

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Turbo857

@ZurapiiYohane

Heh-heh, that's hilarious! Really glad to see I'm not the only one. I get that same feeling every time I play Zelda with split Joy-con and fire a blast from the Master Sword. It just ain't the same.

I'm keepin' my fingers crossed with hopes that 1:1 motion controls will return in a sequel. I'll even buy a gold Joy-Con pair with Zelda branding.

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Haywired

For me personally, no, I must say I was very much relieved to hear that Breath of the Wild wasn't going to go down the Skyward Sword route. Not hugely surprising as I'm generally anti-motion controls, but Breath of the Wild in particular is the sort of the game I just want to kick back, relax and get lost in the game world. In that sense I find motion controls to be highly irritating and distracting. For me, full 1:1 motion control in Zelda is as unwanted as it would be in Xenoblade Chronicles or Monster Hunter. It's just not how I want to play video games (though I appreciate it is for some). I mean, Monster Hunter has some of the most fun and satisfying sword combat in games and it's just the simple tactility of buttons. I don't think any Monster Hunter fan would want the series to go motion controlled. Zelda: Wind Waker has incredibly satisfying combat. Playing it back in the day I never really thought that I'd prefer to be miming the actions instead.

I don't even think motion controls are that immersive as they make you very much aware that you're just flailing a controller around in your living room, thus taking you out of the game world (after all, anything that puts the focus on the controller itself is inherently unimmersive). The idea of motion controls as innovation has also always seemed odd to me as innovation in technology is usually about making things smaller, quicker and easier, rather than more laborious. As Itagaki once said (when criticizing motion controls); "The reason video games are fun is because you get a big output from a small input."

Haywired

Turbo857

@Haywired

I hear ya. My brother and one of my good friends who just don't get/like motion controls would agree with ya. As a fan of motion controls (ahem; done right), I'd have to say I'm always relaxed when I play motion control based games and the movement required is usually fairly minimal.

I dunno 'bout that Monster Hunter/Xenoblade Chronicles example though. 1:1 only should be applied in a game where the gameplay would reasonably benefit imo (like Zelda). Monster Hunter's combat is quite Phantasy Star Online-esque but features mostly bigger creatures that don't really "block" or assume bipedal defensive postures while wielding sword/shield combos like Darknuts, Ironknuckles, Stafos, Bokoblins, Lizafos, etc. Xenoblade Chronicles in particular is a purebred RPG with an active battle system. It's not a true realtime action/adventure like a Zelda/Secret of Mana so I dunno what 1:1 would even do for that series.

Since you're not acclimated to motion controls, it'd be an uphill battle trying to prove its innovation to you. But for those are acclimated, it's clear as day when you fight a Bokoblin or Lizafos in Botw and then fight the same enemy in Skyward Sword. But you don't even have to go that far, you can simply activate a spin attack much quicker and seamless with motion controls alone. Or how 'bout gyro aiming or playing Resident Evil 4: Wii Edition? The revelation should be instantly obvious.

"I don't even think motion controls are that immersive as they make you very much aware that you're just flailing a controller around in your living room, thus taking you out of the game world (after all, anything that puts the focus on the controller itself is inherently unimmersive)."

Wth?!? Are you kidding me? I actually couldn't picture myself disagreeing more with this statement. If you ever find yourself flailing a controller around you living room = you're playing the game wrong, first of all. Last I remember regardless of what game is played, the focus is usually "on the screen" (minus 1:2 Switch). A controller, regardless of its features, is simply a device that allows a gamer to interact with their game. That's it.

And no offense but this is something I see motion control naysayers do a lot and that's incorrectly mistake the word "immersion" for realism. Immersion is simply the ability produce a strong connection within the player to the game's world ("sometimes" using a heightened sense of realism). Now, if you just say you personally don't find motion controls immersive, that's fine = your own personal opinion. But you're inability to see how an enemy attacking you, when you thrust a left controller to initiate a shield bash that translates on screen immediately, effectively blocking the attack can't produce immersion for another player... is ludicrous. The idea that using gyro aiming to simulate firing a projectile from a controller held in one hand can't produce a heightened sense of immersion over a two handed controller using an analog stick... is ludicrous.

I really can't wait to see people master ARMS motion controls. I wouldn't be the slightest bit surprised to see them wipe the floor with an equally skilled button user.

Edited on by Turbo857

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Octane

Can we stop calling Skyward Sword's controls 1:1? They weren't, and no game with the slightest amount of realism can have 1:1 sword controls.

Octane

Turbo857

@Octane

Nope. Personally, I don't think any of us here that used 1:1 really care if it's really 1:1 or not. It's just a lot easier to type and say than motion-controlled-directional-sword-swinging. Besides, when you say 1:1... gamers know what you're really talking about.

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Octane

Turbo857 wrote:

Besides, when you say 1:1... gamers know what you're really talking about.

Yeah, I know and I'm not thinking of Skyward Sword when I read 1:1 controls...

Octane

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